Simple question regarding alleged Marian worship?

[guanophore]

In my opinion the Catholic Church has taught worship of Mary.

Can you provide an official source of this?

And I think you can find Catholics who will admit this.

Certainly there are misguided Catholics over a great number of things.

I have certainly met Catholics who appear to have made an idol of Mary. May of these come from indiginous cultures that use Mary to replace another goddess figure.

However I think it is important to understand what worship means and meant historically. Worship as a word has come to mean that which is due God alone. But even so people still use it in the old sense. People will say that a husband worships his wife. By that they do not mean he actually thinks she has deific powers. They mean he honors her. I think the Catholic Church has consistently taught that a certain honor is due God alone.

You make a very relevant point here. You are right that there are levels of honor, and that this is a very historically cultural issue which is lost in modern customs as well as language.

You are right that adoration is due to God alone.

As for an unofficial teaching the Catholic Encylopedia teaches worship of Mary.

Catholic Encyclopedia

I believe this is an area where one needs to first be clear on their terms. What do we mean by worship? What is worship? How do we worship? Is singing a song to someone worship? If so then love songs are worship. Is praising a person worship? If so then a parent encouraging their child is engaging in worship. In my opinion most people, including those who accuse Catholics of worshiping Mary, have not given any thought to what worship really means.

Or they are not aware of the medieval use of the term as one of honor, rather than adoration (due only to God). Many Protestants also think we should pray only to God and are unaware of the use of the term “pray” in any other context. There are still present courts that use the old English “plaintiff prays the court…”

I think a lack of belief the communion of the saints is also a hindrance understanding this.

I think Catholics want to avoid using that word worship with Mary like many want to avoid using the word pray. I think Catholics pray to Mary in the sense that they petition just as the word pray means. The fact is most people seem ignorant of language and history and unwilling to overcome their ignorance. If they would they would not only understand one can worship Mary and pray to her in a proper manner but in so doing might actually have a more robust understanding of God and His plan of salvation. I can understand Catholics wanting to deny worship and even prayer to Mary because the stubborn ignorance of accusers is hard to overcome and tiring.

Yes the language is a problem.

The Orthodox practice was mentioned. I’m very ignorant of this but did stumble upon the Akathist which according to Wikipedia is a practice by Eastern Catholic and Orthodox churches.

I note this from it:

I would think this would be as difficult as the Salve Regina since it ascribes invincible power and the ability to free from conflicts to the Queen of the Heavenly Host.

We believe that Mary is an example of what is in store for all of us.

 

[joe370]

ConstantineTG;10183982]There have been many apparitions of the Theotokos to Orthodox Christians. But it is not turned into how the Roman Catholic Church has made of the Marian apparitions. There are no “secrets” that Orthodox Christians debate about and insist that a certain country needs to be consecrated in some way even though it has already been said that private revelations are non-dogmatic and non-doctrinal and yet people insist that what has been privately revealed should be done as a matter of duty by the Church.

The CC officially agrees, in terms of Marian apparitions being private revelation, non-dogmatic and non-doctrinal…

The Theotokos has appeared several times to St. Seraphim of Sarov

mariedenazareth.com/2402.0.html?&L=1

Cool. I’ll check that out. Thanks.

 

[guanophore]

From a Lutheran viewpoint is seems that some Catholics do stray into a bit of too much devotion to Mary - from our viewpoint, there seems to be some rather odd behavior surrounding Fatima for example.

That said, I see a tremendous devotion to Mary from the worlds poor, and even though such overpowering devotion may not be quite technically correct, I have never had the urge to stop people I meet in person who seem to need the direct love that the Theotokos seems to give in the name of Jesus.

Rev 12:12:1 And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; 2 she was with child …

5 And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bear a child, that he might devour her child when she brought it forth; 5 she brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne

17 Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus.

Indeed I believe she continues to intercede for the safety of all those who are pursued by the dragon.

 

[guanophore]

 The way it is depicted is not historic, so it is already besides the point.

This statement does not make any sense. The images reflect actual historic events. How can you say the depiction is anything OTHER than historic?

In fact, it is exactly the point. The images are showing an event that occured in history.

Yes, but they depict much more the relationship than something that happened at a specific place and time.

Have you even been to an Eastern Orthodox church?

Yes! What an awesome experience.

 It is not the Orthodox Church who has codified everything that understanding of the faith can no longer change to the understanding of the present time and culture.  Before you point fingers, experience Orthodoxy first.

I don’t believe anyone was pointing any fingers…

For the record, one of the reasons I am drawn to Eastern Spirituality is because the Orthodox leave much more of the faith in mystery, where the Western Church seems to feel compelled to define, describe, and rationalize that which is beyond human ability.

 

[guanophore]

There have been many apparitions of the Theotokos to Orthodox Christians. But it is not turned into how the Roman Catholic Church has made of the Marian apparitions. There are no “secrets” that Orthodox Christians debate about and insist that a certain country needs to be consecrated in some way even though it has already been said that private revelations are non-dogmatic and non-doctrinal and yet people insist that what has been privately revealed should be done as a matter of duty by the Church.

You know it seems like you are the only one here “pointing fingers”, Constantine. If you believe the HS is leading you to the East,then you must follow your conscience, and go. However, it is not necessary for you to find fault with the Catholic faith in order to pursue your spiritual path.

Your posts come across as if there is some sort of competition going on in your mind.

 

[Mark121359]

Thank you for the explanation James. As a convert I was having a lot of problems with the Hail, Holy Queen for those reasons.

Ahh, come on people now! Now we shouldn’t say the Hail! Holy Queen? What should all of us who pray the Rosary use in place of this prayer then, eh?

 

[Reuben_J]

Ahh, come on people now! Now we shouldn’t say the Hail! Holy Queen? What should all of us who pray the Rosary use in place of this prayer then, eh?

Relax friend. Nobody is calling for the stoppage of using the Hail Holy Queen. Asking question and saying some doubt because of lack of understanding is not the same as wanting to rid of it altogether. There are some very useful explanation given and those could be useful for Catholics; not so much for Protestants who are not Catholics anyway and therefore have no obligation to believe.

 

[Woody87]

I call what you do worship because unless I am reading Ineffibablius Deus wrong that is exactly what the Pope calls it. I grant I could be reading this wrong but it looks like I should not even dare to call into question the feast and worship along with many other things. It has been a while so I am not sure exactly where it is but if you look up the document control f “worship” I think it is the second usage

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[marlo]

You did not get my point,any thing that is of West of origin is a wrong in the eastern orthodox church, even using statue is a wrong because it does not feel east, even if you scrutinize the validity it will be wrong because it is not East, even if their own saints have used it, they will still not use it because it feels wrong, i do not see this alive at all, nor the meaning of the word catholic should be attached to them, they are correctly called eastern. Even the word eastern is not applied to them geographically because they are on the west side of the earth,
They are still confined in the roman empire while the world is in the 21st century already.

Although Jesus does not appear in the image at the “side” of our Lady, Catholics understand that all that Mary is, and does, emanates from her faith and position in Christ, as it should for all of us.

There have been apparitions of Mary in the East, but the multitude of them in the West is certainly no matter for aggrandizement. God has allowed Mary to appear often in the Western Church to correct errors that exist here, and to restore balance that has never been lost in the East.

If this is truly your position, then you find yourself against the Teaching of the Catholic Church, which recognizes the East as the other lung of the body, very much alive and well, though not properly joined. The CC teaches that the EO have valid holy orders, valid sacraments, and valid apostolic succession. These elements make her very much “alive” in Christ.

 

[Mark121359]

Relax friend. Nobody is calling for the stoppage of using the Hail Holy Queen.

You did see the "roll eyes sarcatically correct?
Peace

 

[maltmom]

Ahh, come on people now! Now we shouldn’t say the Hail! Holy Queen? What should all of us who pray the Rosary use in place of this prayer then, eh?

I didn’t say that. Please note…I said I’m a convert and that I WAS having a problem with it. James helped clear that up for me. Thanks again James. I was Protestant for 52 years and I’ve only been Catholic 8 months. Did it stop me for praying the Hail Holy Queen? No. For some things, changing ones mindset of 52 years can take a little time. I’ve learned a lot on the forums.

You did see the "roll eyes sarcatically correct?
Peace

Actually, I saw it and I saw the frown right in front of it. When I saw your comment and the from and rolling eyes I took them personally, as they seemed to be directed at me, and it hurt my feelings.

Intent doesn’t always translate well on the internet. I was happy to see that your comment was in jest.

 

[Mark121359]

Actually, I saw it and I saw the frown right in front of it. When I saw your comment and the from and rolling eyes I took them personally, as they seemed to be directed at me, and it hurt my feelings.

Intent doesn’t always translate well on the internet. I was happy to see that your comment was in jest.

No ill intent meant. And May God Bless You!
Peace, Mark

 

[maltmom]

No ill intent meant. And May God Bless You!
Peace, Mark

God Bless you too!!!

 

[JRKH]

Ahh, come on people now! Now we shouldn’t say the Hail! Holy Queen? What should all of us who pray the Rosary use in place of this prayer then, eh?

Where have I or anyone else said that you should not say the Hail Holy Queen?

The subject of this thread is why protestants might think that Catholics “worship” Mary. The discussion of the prayer “Hail Holy Queen” was offered as one of those items that can be easily misunderstood and we have had a very good conversation on the proper understanding and use of the prayer.
So - based on what has been said here, I simply do not see any grounds for the conclusion you have drawn.

And just as an aside, when I was a child, we prayed the rosary right after supper, as a family, all during lent. We never prayed the Hail Holy Queen as part of our family rosary. I don’t know why - but I certainly don’t think it lessened any benefits we received from such family prayer.
So obviously since the Rosary is a private devotion there is some room in it for variation.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Mark - I see that I should have continued reading before I responded above…

I guess sometimes I too “jump to conclusions”…Mea Culpa…:imsorry:

Peace
James

 

[Mark121359]

Actually for the ones I have spoken to the problem comes from the very beginning.

Hail, Holy Queen,
Mother of Mercy,
Our Life
Our Sweetness
And our hope.

In the Latin - and more literal translation of the Latin - it is clear that Mercy, Life, Sweetness and Hope are all lumped together and that these things refer to Christ…Who Mary is the Mother of.
However - in the form above, while more poetic and lyrical, it can easily be read as saying that Mary is our Life, Sweetness and Hope - and the Mother of Mercy.

But St. Alphonsus Liguori clearly states that In the Hail! Holy Queen we are calling Mary our Life, Sweetness and our Hope!.. This is an excerpt, you can read the rest from link at bottom of post.

*Recently, a friend posed the following question to me: Why do we call Mary our life, our sweetness and our hope? To answer this question, I turned to one of the doctors of the Church, St. Alphonsus Liguori, who wrote an explanation of the Salve Regina in his monumental work The Glories of Mary. St. Alphonsus identifies two reasons as to why Mary is our life. Mary is our life because she obtains for us the pardon of our sins and because she obtains for us perseverance. Mary is our sweetness because she renders death sweet to her clients. And lastly, Mary is the hope of all, including sinners. These three attributes accorded to Mary in the Salve Regina are best summarized by the Hail Mary.

At the conclusion of the Hail Mary, one prays: Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. In the Hail Mary we ask Mary to be our life, our sweetness and our hope, because we ask for her continual intercession. Mary becomes our life when we ask her to pray for us, because through Mary, grace is given to the devotee and thus to the entire world. When a Christian lacks devotion to the Mother of God, St. Alphonsus notes the soul “is immediately enveloped in darkness.” Due to Mary’s continual role of intercession for her faithful children, the absence of devotion leads to a privation of grace, which was at one time being supplied by Marian devotion. A lack of Marian devotion leads to the non-reception of particular graces on the part of the devotee. A healthy Marian devotion provides the soul with life because grace is supplanted to continue on the path toward virtue and Christian perfection.
*

catholiclane.com/calling-mary-our-life-our-sweetness-and-our-hope/

 

[vames]

I went on Google and found a page that will translate…HERE
Just taking that first sentence of the prayer and looking at the Latin… We have…
Salve, Regína, mater misericórdiæ; vita, dulcédo et spes nóstra,
Which literally translates as,
Hail, Queen, mother of mercy; life, sweetness and our hope,

I’m know little about punctuation in Latin and how that might or might not effect things, but one can see that just in the wording, the common English version interjects the word “our” in places that it does not appear in the Latin.
The commonly used English translation and sentence structure can easily be seen to be referring back to Mary as our light, sweetness and hope instead of light sweetness and hope being tied to mercy - all of which Jesus is - and Mary is His mother.

Perhaps lyrically it flows better…but the more literal translation above is, IMHO, more clear.

Peace
James

IMO the problem is not in the punctuation, but in how different languages express the difference between nominative and genitive. I mean, if mercy, life, sweetness and hope were lumped together, the Latin original would have said “mater misericordiae, vitae, dulcedinis et spei”. Anyway, all Latin languages commonly understand it the same way - in two separate sequences:

1. mater misericordiae - Madre de Misericordia; Madre di misericordia; Mère de miséricorde
2. vita, dulcedo et spes nostra - vida, dulzura y esperanza nuestra; vita, dolcezza e speranza nostra; vie, douceur et notre espérance / notre vie, notre douceur et notre espérance

It’s the same grammar as in the Litany of the Sacred Heart:
Cor Iesu, vita et resurrectio nostra,
Cor Iesu, pax et reconciliatio nostra
→ Heart of Jesus, our life and (our) resurrection
Heart of Jesus, our peace and (our) reconciliation
→ Cœur de Jésus, notre vie et notre résurrection
Cœur de Jésus, notre paix et notre réconciliation
→ Cuore di Gesù, vita e risurrezione nostra
Cuore di Gesù, pace e riconciliazione nostra

This is the interpretation of St Alphonsus, an Italian (chapters I-III):
marys-touch.com/Glories/contents.htm

 

[Della]

But St. Alphonsus Liguori clearly states that In the Hail! Holy Queen we are calling Mary our Life, Sweetness and our Hope!.. This is an excerpt, you can read the rest from link at bottom of post.

catholiclane.com/calling-mary-our-life-our-sweetness-and-our-hope/

St. Alphonsus de Liguori has to be read within the context of the whole of Catholic teaching. He’s difficult to understand otherwise–and his teaching is not for those who still need the “milk” of the Gospel and cannot yet, eat the “meat” of the Gospel.

It’s funny for me because I read his “The Glories of Mary” when I had been in the Assemblies of God for about 20 years and had only recently, at that time, returned to the church of my childhood, the Episcopal Church, but was looking into the Catholic Church. I read TGOM in that context and one would think I would have been scandalized by it, but I wasn’t. I drank in every word, even if some were a bit hard to swallow at the time, and lo and behold, it drew me even more towards the CC than I had been drawn before–rather than turning me away. It contained the beauty and richness of spirituality I had been searching for all my life.

I wasn’t a biblical neophyte, either. I had earned a B. A. in religious education at an AoG Bible college and knew all the objections to Marian teachings. But as I read St. Alphonsus’ writings, including “The Dolorous Passion of Christ” (I may have that title wrong), it all fell into place for me–I saw Scripture after Scripture come alive and make sense for the first time. Still, I don’t recommend TGOM to new Catholics or those looking into the Church because it wasn’t written for such folks. I guess I was like St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross (Edith Stein) when she read the writings of St. Teresa of Avila and said, “This is truth.” But for me it was St. Alphonsus and others who wrote about Mary. Mary was both a sticking point as a Protestant and a draw, so I had to resolve her status before I could be reconciled to the Church. So, I understand something of the confusion and disconnect people can have to Marian devotion/teachings.

 

[JRKH]

But St. Alphonsus Liguori clearly states that In the Hail! Holy Queen we are calling Mary our Life, Sweetness and our Hope!.. This is an excerpt, you can read the rest from link at bottom of post.

catholiclane.com/calling-mary-our-life-our-sweetness-and-our-hope/

Interesting…But also confusing…especially to someone who, like myself, needs to keep my faith simple and straightforward.

Your post speaks quite clearly to what others are saying on this matter - that in order to avoid confusion and error, one needs to have a strong and deep understanding of Catholic thought, teachings and devotions.
I can easily see a Catholic trying to explain the HHQ to a protestant using your quote above and having the protestant only become MORE convinced that Catholics view Mary improperly.

The Church urges us NOT to speak or act in ways that might lead one into error on these matters. (See post 56 and the reference to Lumen Gentium) So I would avoid trying to use such references when speaking with a protestant on this matter.

Peace
James

 

[Mark121359]

Interesting…But also confusing…especially to someone who, like myself, needs to keep my faith simple and straightforward.

Your post speaks quite clearly to what others are saying on this matter - that in order to avoid confusion and error, one needs to have a strong and deep understanding of Catholic thought, teachings and devotions.
I can easily see a Catholic trying to explain the HHQ to a protestant using your quote above and having the protestant only become MORE convinced that Catholics view Mary improperly.

The Church urges us NOT to speak or act in ways that might lead one into error on these matters. (See post 56 and the reference to Lumen Gentium) So I would avoid trying to use such references when speaking with a protestant on this matter.

Peace
James

I hear what you’re saying. It just seems to me that whenever the subject of Mary comes up on this forum lately, It frequently appears IMHO, and I repeat this is just my opinion, that she gets disrespected in many ways even by Catholics. Now I understand that to our protestant brethren and others, Mary is a big stumbling block and I sympathise with them. But I’m Roman Catholic, and I love Our Lady profoundly and I know in my heart of hearts that this is by no means “worship” for her! And I have to be honest here, I really don’t care much what others i.e Catholics, Protestants, Muslim or fill in the blank would say or think about my feelings toward Mary. And believe me, with all my heart I mean absolutely no offense by that last statement. It’s just the plain truth as I see it. I guess I’m comfortable in my own skin so to speak… Just some ramblings!

Peace, Mark