Simple question regarding alleged Marian worship?

[guanophore]

I call what you do worship because unless I am reading Ineffibablius Deus wrong that is exactly what the Pope calls it. I grant I could be reading this wrong but it looks like I should not even dare to call into question the feast and worship along with many other things. It has been a while so I am not sure exactly where it is but if you look up the document control f “worship” I think it is the second usage

Yes, but such language is misleading and causes misunderstandings amonng modern English speakers. In medieval Europe, the various usages were much more clear and understandible, but here it is more like using the word “love”.

I love baseball.
I love the Lord Jesus.

We don’t have the distinction of phileo, agape, storge, etc. for “love”.

So it communicates more clarity to say "venerate " or “honor” to prevent confusion.

 

[guanophore]

God Bless you too!!!

:grouphug:

 

[guanophore]

But St. Alphonsus Liguori clearly states that In the Hail! Holy Queen we are calling Mary our Life, Sweetness and our Hope!.. This is an excerpt, you can read the rest from link at bottom of post.

catholiclane.com/calling-mary-our-life-our-sweetness-and-our-hope/

This is St. Alphonsus’ private revelation, and is not binding on the Catholic faithful. He perceives these qualties coming through Mary, not separate from Christ,but others who pray the prayer understand these modifiers to be speaking of Jesus (our life, our sweetness, and our hope) which is more palatable for many, especialy converts.

The only reason Mary can be described this way by the St. is because she embodies that for which all of those in Christ are destined. We are all to experience the resurrected life as she does now, and enjoy the sweet beatific vision. To this hope we all hold and toward it we aspire. She has finished the race, so we look to her for inspiration.

 

[JRKH]

I hear what you’re saying. It just seems to me that whenever the subject of Mary comes up on this forum lately, It frequently appears IMHO, and I repeat this is just my opinion, that she gets disrespected in many ways even by Catholics. Now I understand that to our protestant brethren and others, Mary is a big stumbling block and I sympathise with them. But I’m Roman Catholic, and I love Our Lady profoundly and I know in my heart of hearts that this is by no means “worship” for her! And I have to be honest here, I really don’t care much what others i.e Catholics, Protestants, Muslim or fill in the blank would say or think about my feelings toward Mary. And believe me, with all my heart I mean absolutely no offense by that last statement. It’s just the plain truth as I see it. I guess I’m comfortable in my own skin so to speak… Just some ramblings!

Peace, Mark

See - interestingly enough - I have found nothing on this thread (or others that I have been on) to be disrespectful of our Blessed Mother. Well let me correct that - there was one lately where the OP got rather out of line…

May I ask if you have found anything I have said to be “disrespectful” of our Lady?

You see - I too am a Roman Catholic and Love my heavenly Mother, but because I do not share the same deep level of devotion to her in my prayer life that some other do, and because I attempt to lessen the “stumbling block” aspect of our Lady for those looking into the Church, I have been “called on the carpet” here by some folks.

Yet I recall Our Lady’s last recorded words in Scripture as “Do whatever He tells you” and I recall Jesus instructions on “how to pray” saying “Our Father…”
I recall how those who defend our Lady invariably do so by saying that “She leads us to Jesus”…So if I go to Jesus in prayer have I not done what our Lady seeks for me?
And when I advise others (especially new converts) that, if they too are more comfortable praying directly to Jesus, this is perfectly fine and in accord with the teaching of the Church have I not also acted in line with what our Lady wishes? That we go to her Son?

Finally I recall how St Paul speaks of being all things to all men so that he might save some. Perhaps you don’t care what others think about your personal devotions. That is fine, but if you allow those devotions to cloud how you approach someone else who is trying to understand the faith have you not acted contrary to the way that Our Blessed Mother would wish us to act?

Like you these are some random thoughts on the matter…It is a delicate subject…and I do not mean to sound critical of you or anyone else…I apologize if I have.

Peace
James

 

[Mark121359]

May I ask if you have found anything I have said to be “disrespectful” of our Lady?

Peace
James

Absolutely I have!!!.. Nah, just kidding! I couldn’t resist that, lol. You see, I have this horribly warped sense of humor. All joking aside, you are nothing but respectful in all of your posts here at CAF, and I might add very thought provoking as well!

Peace, Mark

 

[JRKH]

Absolutely I have!!!.. Nah, just kidding! I couldn’t resist that, lol. You see, I have this horribly warped sense of humor.

Understood…I to have been accused of operating in the “world of warp” (just made that up…)…I mostly control it on here because I don’t want to be misunderstood…but believe me - if it weren’t for the delete and backspace buttons…

All joking aside, you are nothing but respectful in all of your posts here at CAF, and I might add very thought provoking as well!

Glad to here it. I’ve been fortunate that the Lord has been able to use me in these forums.

Peace
James

 

[exnihilo]

Yes, but such language is misleading and causes misunderstandings amonng modern English speakers.

That may be the case but if you ask where the Catholic Church teaches the worship of Mary and anyone can easily find documents not even two-hundred years old that teach the worship of Mary then you’ve set yourself up for failure. What I am saying is the tactic of simply denying ‘Mary worship’ is bad. I agree the word worship has a different meaning today. But most people don’t know that and are hard to teach.

I would as a strategy recommend at least adding some distinction to the term worship when denying the Catholic Church teaches the worship of Mary. I might say the Catholic Church does not and has never taught the worship of Mary as being equal to God or in deserving the honor God alone should receive. I would at the beginning of my defense acknowledge that you will find documents that teach the worship of Mary but that worship in that case must be understood differently and give examples of how its use has changed. In fact this tract on Catholic Answers does exactly that and I think is very well done.

 

[Della]

The problem isn’t so much with our liturgical brethren, who come from a background in which many of the concepts we have been discussing are understood, but in our brethren for whom any honor given to another is considered idolatry–any “dead” person, that is.

Some Christians have strayed so far from the reformers that they deny any doctrines except those that directly speak of Christ. They accept, without question certain concept, such as the two natures of Christ, without ever asking how we Christians came to believe he has two natures instead of only divine nature or only human touched by divinity, and other such ideas. They don’t know and don’t want to know that the Catholic Church gave them the true definition, as well as that of the Holy Trinity, the canon of Scripture and other inconvenient truths, to coin a phrase. But when it comes to Mary, any mention of her, apart from her connection to Christmas, sends them into fits (I’ve witnessed this personally) because it violates their very OT understanding of God.

For them the fulfillment of the OT means they see God as a strict Father who set rules (no idol worship, no making of statues–they love to wave those like flags even though they misinterpret what they mean). They believe God made a bargain with us through Christ, and if we keep our side of the bargain we will be saved. Period. End of story. Anything that interfers with that understanding is anathema to them. No pope, no pagentry, no priests, certainly no Mary or saints, no anything or anyone except Christ, definitely not. So when they see Catholics praying the rosary or kneeling before Mary’s statues they automatically think idolatry. It’s a knee-jerk reaction they’ve been taught all their lives–one they cannot help unless they can open their hearts and minds to the idea that they might be wrong about what they think they are seeing/hearing. It’s like trying to get them to hate their parents or their country, only magnified by a factor of a thousand. I was once one of those people, so I know whereof I speak.

 

[Mark121359]

The problem isn’t so much with our liturgical brethren, who come from a background in which many of the concepts we have been discussing are understood, but in our brethren for whom any honor given to another is considered idolatry–any “dead” person, that is.

Some Christians have strayed so far from the reformers that they deny any doctrines except those that directly speak of Christ. They accept, without question certain concept, such as the two natures of Christ, without ever asking how we Christians came to believe he has two natures instead of only divine nature or only human touched by divinity, and other such ideas. They don’t know and don’t want to know that the Catholic Church gave them the true definition, as well as that of the Holy Trinity, the canon of Scripture and other inconvenient truths, to coin a phrase. But when it comes to Mary, any mention of her, apart from her connection to Christmas, sends them into fits (I’ve witnessed this personally) because it violates their very OT understanding of God.

For them the fulfillment of the OT means they see God as a strict Father who set rules (no idol worship, no making of statues–they love to wave those like flags even though they misinterpret what they mean). They believe God made a bargain with us through Christ, and if we keep our side of the bargain we will be saved. Period. End of story. Anything that interfers with that understanding is anathema to them. No pope, no pagentry, no priests, certainly no Mary or saints, no anything or anyone except Christ, definitely not. So when they see Catholics praying the rosary or kneeling before Mary’s statues they automatically think idolatry. It’s a knee-jerk reaction they’ve been taught all their lives–one they cannot help unless they can open their hearts and minds to the idea that they might be wrong about what they think they are seeing/hearing. It’s like trying to get them to hate their parents or their country, only magnified by a factor of a thousand. I was once one of those people, so I know whereof I speak.

Me thinks you’re onto something here!

 

[adf417]

I would as a strategy recommend at least adding some distinction to the term worship when denying the Catholic Church teaches the worship of Mary. I might say the Catholic Church does not and has never taught the worship of Mary as being equal to God or in deserving the honor God alone should receive. I would at the beginning of my defense acknowledge that you will find documents that teach the worship of Mary but that worship in that case must be understood differently and give examples of how its use has changed. In fact this tract on Catholic Answers does exactly that and I think is very well done.

Why is it that even satanic cult worshipers understand the importance of worship in the Holy Eucharist but most all non-Catholics can’t seem to grasp it? Let me put it another way, if the Eucharist is not what we say it is, then I would agree, we worship Mary. The strategy you recommend would only last for a particular time. God’s strategy of worship in the Eucharist is timeless and needs no words except “Amen”.

Peace!!!

 

[joe370]

That may be the case but if you ask where the Catholic Church teaches the worship of Mary and anyone can easily find documents not even two-hundred years old that teach the worship of Mary then you’ve set yourself up for failure. What I am saying is the tactic of simply denying ‘Mary worship’ is bad. I agree the word worship has a different meaning today. But most people don’t know that and are hard to teach.

I would as a strategy recommend at least adding some distinction to the term worship when denying the Catholic Church teaches the worship of Mary. I might say the Catholic Church does not and has never taught the worship of Mary as being equal to God or in deserving the honor God alone should receive. I would at the beginning of my defense acknowledge that you will find documents that teach the worship of Mary but that worship in that case must be understood differently and give examples of how its use has changed. In fact this tract on Catholic Answers does exactly that and I think is very well done.

The whole idea of worshipping Mary, a mere creature is silly, any way you look at it, IMHO.

 

[joe370]

I call what you do worship because unless I am reading Ineffibablius Deus wrong that is exactly what the Pope calls it. I grant I could be reading this wrong but it looks like I should not even dare to call into question the feast and worship along with many other things. It has been a while so I am not sure exactly where it is but if you look up the document control f “worship” I think it is the second usage

Posted from Catholic.com App for Android

Official citations illustrating that the catholic church endorses Marian worship?

 

[PJM]

=joe370;10180088]Since becoming catholic, (and long before) I have been told by some non-Catholics (with the exception of EO Christians) that the Catholic Church teaches Marian worship. I have been witnessing these claims recently right here at CAF. In light of said accusations, could anyone making such claims please show me the official magisterial teaching (or unofficial teaching) to back up said claim?

THANKS Joe!

CATHOLIC DO NOT, CANNOT “WORSHIP” ANY :ONE" OR ANY “THING” OTHER THAN GOD HIMSELF. PERIOD!

We honor Mary as thee Mother of God and give Hwe reverence; we DO NOT “worship Her.”

169 **Salvation comes from God alone; **but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: “We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation.” Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith.

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and “whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it.” The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone:

Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.

266 "Now this is the Catholic faith: We worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity, without either confusing the persons or dividing the substance; for the person of the Father is one, the Son’s is another, the Holy Spirit’s another; but the Godhead of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal" (Athanasian Creed: DS 75; ND 16).

2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, “You cannot serve God and mammon.” Many martyrs died for not adoring “the Beast” refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.

435 The name of Jesus is at the heart of Christian prayer. All liturgical prayers conclude with the words “through our Lord Jesus Christ”. The Hail Mary reaches its high point in the words “blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.”

2674 Mary gave her consent in faith at the Annunciation and maintained it without hesitation at the foot of the Cross. Ever since, her motherhood has extended to the brothers and sisters of her Son “who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties.” Jesus, the only mediator, is the way of our prayer; Mary, his mother and ours, is wholly transparent to him: she “shows the way” (hodigitria), and is herself “the Sign” of the way, according to the traditional iconography of East and West.

2677 Holy Mary, Mother of God: With Elizabeth we marvel, “And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Because she gives us Jesus, her son, Mary is Mother of God and our mother; we can entrust all our cares and petitions to her: she prays for us as she prayed for herself: “Let it be to me according to your word.” By entrusting ourselves to her prayer, we abandon ourselves to the will of God together with her: “Thy will be done.”

Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death: By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the “Mother of Mercy,” the All-Holy One. We give ourselves over to her now, in the Today of our lives. And our trust broadens further, already at the present moment, to surrender “the hour of our death” wholly to her care. May she be there as she was at her son’s death on the cross. May she welcome us as our mother at the hour of our passing to lead us to her son, Jesus, in paradise.

 

[Saints_Alive]

The Ave Maria prayer itself should leave no doubt.

Hail Mary, full of grace
the Lord is with thee
blessed art thou, amongst women
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus
Holy Mary, Mother of God
pray for us sinners
now and at the hour of our death
Amen

Why in the world would we ask someone we worship to pray for us ? We would pray to them wouldn’t we ?

 

[Reuben_J]

That may be the case but if you ask where the Catholic Church teaches the worship of Mary and anyone can easily find documents not even two-hundred years old that teach the worship of Mary then you’ve set yourself up for failure. What I am saying is the tactic of simply denying ‘Mary worship’ is bad. I agree the word worship has a different meaning today. But most people don’t know that and are hard to teach.

I would as a strategy recommend at least adding some distinction to the term worship when denying the Catholic Church teaches the worship of Mary. I might say the Catholic Church does not and has never taught the worship of Mary as being equal to God or in deserving the honor God alone should receive. I would at the beginning of my defence acknowledge that you will find documents that teach the worship of Mary but that worship in that case must be understood differently and give examples of how its use has changed. In fact this tract on Catholic Answers does exactly that and I think is very well done.

I applaud you’re being quite objective on this discussion in responding to the topic of the thread, considering that you being a Protestant. How and why Protestants view Catholics position on Mary is very informative for us, especially people like me who do not have any Protestant background.

You opinion that some Catholics worship Mary based on the teaching mentioned above is not correct however. AFAIK, no Catholics misunderstood the word worship there. In fact none of such teaching or wording is being taught to Catholics even if the document uses word like ‘worship’. So you can see that there is no mistaken view or teaching among Catholics that Mary is to be worshipped, directly or indirectly. This would be probably news to Protestants but I am saying this that Catholics are very clear on the position of Mary in the Church, and the clearest is that she is not to be worshipped like God. So there is no misunderstanding there. You have rightly known that the ‘worship’ word is not to be meant ‘worship’ per se.

Having said that, what Catholics do in the devotion (devotion is what it is, devotion; it is a kind of spirituality, prayers; and it is non-obligatory on every Catholic) may seem to be overboard in their devotion to Mary. Looking at it from the outside, it can be easily misunderstood as worshipping her or putting her on the same level as God or like more of Mary and less of Jesus.

But then again, devotion prayers have to be understood in that context and what they actually are doing. For information, those who add devotion to their prayer life are probably people who are more prayerful than ordinary Catholics, as besides the devotion they would do everything that a Catholic would do. So if we look at devotion objectively, no they are not wrong nor do they put ‘God less and Mary more’.

That is what I can say about Marian spirituality. Those Catholics who worship Mary and elevate her as goddess are obviously has nothing to do with devotion but rather carried over paganistic belief as been pointed out by Guanophore.

 

[Reuben_J]

The problem isn’t so much with our liturgical brethren, who come from a background in which many of the concepts we have been discussing are understood, but in our brethren for whom any honor given to another is considered idolatry–any “dead” person, that is.

Some Christians have strayed so far from the reformers that they deny any doctrines except those that directly speak of Christ. They accept, without question certain concept, such as the two natures of Christ, without ever asking how we Christians came to believe he has two natures instead of only divine nature or only human touched by divinity, and other such ideas. They don’t know and don’t want to know that the Catholic Church gave them the true definition, as well as that of the Holy Trinity, the canon of Scripture and other inconvenient truths, to coin a phrase. But when it comes to Mary, any mention of her, apart from her connection to Christmas, sends them into fits (I’ve witnessed this personally) because it violates their very OT understanding of God.

For them the fulfillment of the OT means they see God as a strict Father who set rules (no idol worship, no making of statues–they love to wave those like flags even though they misinterpret what they mean). They believe God made a bargain with us through Christ, and if we keep our side of the bargain we will be saved. Period. End of story. Anything that interfers with that understanding is anathema to them. No pope, no pagentry, no priests, certainly no Mary or saints, no anything or anyone except Christ, definitely not. So when they see Catholics praying the rosary or kneeling before Mary’s statues they automatically think idolatry. It’s a knee-jerk reaction they’ve been taught all their lives–one they cannot help unless they can open their hearts and minds to the idea that they might be wrong about what they think they are seeing/hearing. It’s like trying to get them to hate their parents or their country, only magnified by a factor of a thousand. I was once one of those people, so I know whereof I speak.

This is a very useful post and very informative especially for cradle Catholics. It helps to know why Protestants behave as such when faced with Catholics’ position on Mary.

I am one of those leaders of the church in a local parish. It is no big deal; it is the service that one does. It is through this that quite often we have Catholics, especially the ladies who would share with us about how they encountered some bad experiences at the hands of Protestants who abused and taken advantage of them of their faith.

This usually happened during some occasions like prayer service, funeral, engagement ceremony, wedding or visiting sick relatives where a sibling is married to a Protestant. Sometimes the Protestant in-laws or their relatives would make cruel remark like, ‘why does your church worship Mary’ or ‘Mary is just a human being like us and we do not worship her.’ A Catholic in that situation would suffer in silent as she would not want to risk an argument in defending her belief. But it can be very hurting too.

We have given them advice on how to deal with this situation but mostly it was on apologetic on how to defend the particular doctrine. However, arguing with Protestants from this perspective will not lead to anything other than arguing. Even if they can be proven wrong, they would dig their heels even more in their established position vis-a-vis Catholic Doctrines.

Perhaps a more fruitful way in addressing this issue is to understand Protestants background and how they derive their view towards Catholicism. You have provided that useful glimpse for us.

It’s funny for me because I read his “The Glories of Mary” when I had been in the Assemblies of God for about 20 years and had only recently, at that time, returned to the church of my childhood, the Episcopal Church, but was looking into the Catholic Church. I read TGOM in that context and one would think I would have been scandalized by it, but I wasn’t.** I drank in every word, even if some were a bit hard to swallow at the time, and lo and behold, it drew me even more towards the CC than I had been drawn before–rather than turning me away. It contained the beauty and richness of spirituality I had been searching for all my life**.

Granted not every Protestants are the same but this is always beautiful music to the ears.

 

[maltmom]

Perhaps a more fruitful way in addressing this issue is to understand Protestants background and how they derive their view towards Catholicism.

Also, sit down with a convert. Ask them questions that a Protestant would ask you about the faith. Then have them explain them to you using Protestant terms. As Catholics we can say one thing and a Protestant will hear another…Catholic says pray = ask…Protestant hears pray = pray and they only pray to God

I live in a very Baptist area. When I converted my friends had a lot of questions. I always explained things to them in terms I know they would understand and could relate to. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard…“I still don’t agree, but it all makes better sense now.” I must say that each discussion has gone very well except for when the first time in her life my best friend realized that we believe in the Real Presence. Her reaction was :bigyikes: then:dts: There was no way to calmly discuss it.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Tho Icons show the devotion of Mary as the Mother of her son, Jesus, it does not capture the other side of her motherhood.

The picture of Fatima and Lourdes does this. It shows her motherhood and special devotion to her other children still here on earth.

And so our devotion to her is not only as the Mother of the child Jesus, but also as the Mother of all her children Jesus committed to her care.

A devoted son.

It is said that icons do to paint/color what Scripture do to words. Icons isn’t merely capturing images of people we venerate and worship (in the case of Jesus Christ), but it is meant to be catechetical. The image of Lourdes and Fatima is not catechetical. A non-Catholic will interpret that as Marian worship.

 

[ConstantineTG]

This statement does not make any sense. The images reflect actual historic events. How can you say the depiction is anything OTHER than historic?

Yes, it is an artistic interpretation of the event, not the historic event itself. There is a difference. To claim an image as historic means that everything in the image should take into account an actual representation of the events, sort of like a photograph. Once artist’s interpretation comes into play, then this aren’t depicted accurately.

In fact, it is exactly the point. The images are showing an event that occured in history.

As noted above, what is shown is an artist’s representation of what he/she thinks happened, not really an accurate showing of what happened historically.

Yes, but they depict much more the relationship than something that happened at a specific place and time.

Icons are meant to teach, not to paint a pretty picture. There are strict rules around it. You won’t see icons of Jesus floating around above the clouds like Superman and people in heaven waving to him. The elements of an icon is meant to teach the viewer, not just shake their emotions.

Yes! What an awesome experience.

I don’t believe anyone was pointing any fingers…

For the record, one of the reasons I am drawn to Eastern Spirituality is because the Orthodox leave much more of the faith in mystery, where the Western Church seems to feel compelled to define, describe, and rationalize that which is beyond human ability.

I don’t mind describing and rationalizing, it does have its proper place in the faith. The issue is, at least from my point of view, the Latin Church has bitten more than she can chew in terms of defining things. I guess she is trying to win the theological argument with the Protestants with all these dogmas, But I think it brings forward more problems than it solves.

 

[ConstantineTG]

You know it seems like you are the only one here “pointing fingers”, Constantine. If you believe the HS is leading you to the East,then you must follow your conscience, and go. However, it is not necessary for you to find fault with the Catholic faith in order to pursue your spiritual path.

Your posts come across as if there is some sort of competition going on in your mind.

Its not about finding fault. Not too long ago I would have agreed with everything every Catholic is saying on this thread. But given I have stepped out of the box and put on a different set of goggles, it does shock and amaze me that a lot of the criticism against the Catholic Church’s devotion to Mary do have some merit. I think you guys need to take this all in and do some self examination. Many times Catholics have overstepped the boundary of veneration and worship, and it is true. I know this sounds mean from someone who has decided to leave the Church, but I’m saying this not to criticize but to open the eyes of people to the problem. There is a problem. We have to be honest and acknowledge it. There is no need to be overly defensive about the issue.