Simple question regarding alleged Marian worship?

[CopticChristian]

Guanophore, I respect what you are saying. That translation of words is not always easy especially with English. But I do think that is something that you should bring up with the papalencyclicals website and the Vatican website they translated it and put it up I just look stuff up in my spare time I’m not a scholar or theologians or an expert in dead languages . Personally I think it has been translated well. The word used in Latin here was cultus (in its basic form) which is defined in context as worship. Now my Latin is rusty so forgive me if I’m wrong but I don’t think I am. I looked up the word quickly the only other meaning in context could be devotion. I do think that it is important to see that this is not colere or venerari which can easily be translated as honor or veneration and not worship. I hope that you can concede thathonor, veneration as worship and devotion as worship are not the same so it should be seen as devotion and not veneration or honor if you reject the word worship. I do understand that the meaning of words over time change so I think your theory could be correct, but then again so can mine. I will grant that I am no historian which would be vary helpful to translation.
If this makes any difference Pope Pius XII agrees that it is worship but does not think that it takes away from worship due to God alone but that it redounds to glory her Divine Son(not direct quote paragraph 15). Later he goes on to quote something in paragraph 18 “more sweet, nothing dearer than to worship, venerated, invoke and praise with ardent affection the Mother of God” (I memorized that for you) . This is in Flugens Corona on the Vatican website.

I am not sorry for not putting in proper quotes and sited work. I am doing this at night while I can’t sleep on my phone in bed and the copy button on my phone is broken so deel with it. If you are on a computer there is a thing called Google look it up.

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Woody,

Words are how we communicate.

Now close your eyes and imagine that with all your heart, all your soul, the God of your understanding is standing right before you…standing beside that God of your understanding…is Mary, all those that have followed…we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesseses…and your only purpose is to worship that God…not ignoring the reality that if there is a heaven and those that are there are with God…

Now understand that as you imagine worship of God…God is Father, Son, Holy Spirit…and the only place Catholics offer worship is in the mass…and if you ever attend you will hear…

To the Father
Through the Son
in the Unity of the Holy Spirit

almost as an accepted routine in offering praise and worhip. The liturgy of the Eucharist/liturgy of the word is the worship and why you will see that the Catholic Church says…

We venerate the body of Christ as we do The Sacred Words of God, the Bible…for ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ…in the mass we belay our ignorance by acknowledging and recognizing the triune God in his Body and in His revelation…and nowhere in the mass will you hear “worship of Mary”…She is a bystander/cooperater/consenter and is part of the entire notion of salvation…we also honor and recognize the communion of Saints, not worhiping them either, that is not the purpose of the mass…

 

[Della]

This is a very useful post and very informative especially for cradle Catholics. It helps to know why Protestants behave as such when faced with Catholics’ position on Mary.

I am one of those leaders of the church in a local parish. It is no big deal; it is the service that one does. It is through this that quite often we have Catholics, especially the ladies who would share with us about how they encountered some bad experiences at the hands of Protestants who abused and taken advantage of them of their faith.

This usually happened during some occasions like prayer service, funeral, engagement ceremony, wedding or visiting sick relatives where a sibling is married to a Protestant. Sometimes the Protestant in-laws or their relatives would make cruel remark like, ‘why does your church worship Mary’ or ‘Mary is just a human being like us and we do not worship her.’ A Catholic in that situation would suffer in silent as she would not want to risk an argument in defending her belief. But it can be very hurting too.

We have given them advice on how to deal with this situation but mostly it was on apologetic on how to defend the particular doctrine. However, arguing with Protestants from this perspective will not lead to anything other than arguing. Even if they can be proven wrong, they would dig their heels even more in their established position vis-a-vis Catholic Doctrines.

Perhaps a more fruitful way in addressing this issue is to understand Protestants background and how they derive their view towards Catholicism. You have provided that useful glimpse for us.

I’m afraid I learned what I know through my own bias during my time in the Assemblies of God, although a lot of that attitude has been allayed over the years in that particular sect. However, anti-Catholicism is very much alive due to all the misinformation and mind sets that still exist. Trying to get some of those folks to see they are wrong is like peeling a turtle, to coin a phrase. They truly believe they have to disabuse Catholics of their beliefs or said Catholics will go to hell. I can applaud their motivation, but certainly not their belief nor their methods. Poor things, they need our prayers and our understanding. When confronted your ladies should simply say, “I’m afraid you are misinformed. I will pray for you.” That will probably take the wind out of proselytizers’ sails.

Granted not every Protestants are the same but this is always beautiful music to the ears.

I believe God had been “prepping” me for the Catholic faith for a long time before reading about Mary from saints like St. Louis and St. Alphonsus. It would take too long to relate the whole of my experiences, but suffice it to say, the Holy Spirit worked in my heart because I was willing to learn and be led. That’s what God asks of us all, though, isn’t it? When we do that, he does the rest.

 

[EIF5A]

The devil hates her more than Jesus because he knows the power in those two prayers and in her intercession that God allows.

Is it Scriptural that the devil hates the Mother more than the Son? Is praying to Mary more “efficient” than praying directly to God the Father because she can plead on our behalf?

Maybe it’s linguistics and the psychology behind it, but a mother is “greater” than the child she bears. Ergo, in my Protestant mind, I just can’t fathom putting her “above” God the Creator of all.

 

[Della]

Is it Scriptural that the devil hates the Mother more than the Son? Is praying to Mary more “efficient” than praying directly to God the Father because she can plead on our behalf?

Maybe it’s linguistics and the psychology behind it, but a mother is “greater” than the child she bears. Ergo, in my Protestant mind, I just can’t fathom putting her “above” God the Creator of all.

God has told us that it is the weak and little of this world in whom he works, and Mary was certainly of no account to the world as a Jewish maiden living in an obscure village in Northern Israel. It is the Holy Spirit who edows her with power, not she herself, just as with any of us. We must remember that Christ told us that we would do “greater things than” even he–not because he lacked anything, but because we would be empowered to do what he couldn’t (if he had remained with us) and why he had to go to the Father–that we should go into the whole world to preach and baptize. God confers on Mary and on us all the ability to do things for one another because we are one family in Christ and he desires that we show our love for one another in our actions, as well as our words. So, Mary being powerful is saying no more than saying what Jesus himself said–that we, by and through the Holy Spirit, would make him known and loved throughout the world. That’s Mary’s mission–it’s all our mission.

 

[Cavaradossi]

{The following response represents the nausea your above post caused me. It is not a personal attack against you.}

Bunk!

Christ in order to fulfill both old and new covenant law must honor His mother. We, if we are indeed followers of Christ, can do no less.If we do not honor Mary, then we have rejected Christ!

I reject your whole notion that some Catholics worship Mary. Would protestant colored glasses work better? Let us see.

With protestant colored glasses, Mary is married to Joseph. God then decides to procreate with her and with her consent (something that is forbidden for us to do). The offspring from this fornication / adultery became the savior of the world. Christ, in gratitude for the nourishment, love and care of His mother, lets her die and rot away in the ground.

Bunk! A trillion times bunk!

The catholic teaching on Mary is the correct and most pure way of looking at true history. Mary gave herself to God! Joseph became a caretaker of her, just as a brother and sister. Christ in fulfillment of the law honors His mother even now and forever more. Mary was given to us by our Lord. Therefore, we must honor Mary. To call this “worship” is the quintessential definition of bearing false witness!

John 19: 26 When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son. 27 After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own.

Not everything Constantine has to say is “bunk.” I do not know how well acquainted you are with Roman Catholic Mariology, but there have been, in the last century, some Mariological developments which the Orthodox (who have great devotion to the Mother of God) find to be disconcerting.

Chief among these is the quasi-incarnation of the Holy Spirit, which bears striking similarities to passages—condemned by the Russian Orthodox Church (both abroad and in Russia) in the 1930s—written by archpriest Bulgakov, who argued that the Virgin by the indwelling of the Spirit acquired a sort of dyadic life of humanity and divinity by virtue of this indwelling. Another idea which has been proposed by Roman Catholic Mariologists is the teaching that the Holy Spirit is the uncreated immaculate conception, and that the Virgin, being the immaculate conception is the perfect manifestation or outpouring of love from the Spirit. This too bears a close resemblance to condemned teachings of Bulgakov, namely that the Virgin is a perfect manifestation of the Spirit.

There are also certain affirmations which we do not take issue with in themselves, but rather we take issue with certain liberal interpretations of these affirmations. Examples include co-redemptrix and mediatrix of all grace. Both can be understood as referring to the role of the Virgin in the Incarnation as Theotokos, which like Orthodox metaphors of the Theotokos being like a lamp which illuminates the world (Christ being the light), we would not find objectionable. But some interpretations, like the Holy Spirit only working through Mary we do find objectionable, and cannot accept, since they are foreign to our interpretive tradition.

To be clear, I am not accusing anybody of heresy, nor am I implying that these are official teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. That being said, so long as Mariologists are free to teach speculations like the quasi-incarnation of the Holy Spirit, the Orthodox will continue to have certain misgivings about Roman Catholic Mariology, assessing that some go beyond what is proper.

 

[PJM]

=Della;10190890]I’m afraid I learned what I know through my own bias during my time in the Assemblies of God, although a lot of that attitude has been allayed over the years in that particular sect. However, anti-Catholicism is very much alive due to all the misinformation and mind sets that still exist. Trying to get some of those folks to see they are wrong is like peeling a turtle, to coin a phrase. They truly believe they have to disabuse Catholics of their beliefs or said Catholics will go to hell. I can applaud their motivation, but certainly not their belief nor their methods. Poor things, they need our prayers and our understanding. When confronted your ladies should simply say, “I’m afraid you are misinformed. I will pray for you.” That will probably take the wind out of proselytizers’ sails.

I believe God had been “prepping” me for the Catholic faith for a long time before reading about Mary from saints like St. Louis and St. Alphonsus. It would take too long to relate the whole of my experiences, but suffice it to say, the Holy Spirit worked in my heart because I was willing to learn and be led. That’s what God asks of us all, though, isn’t it? When we do that, he does the rest.

Matt.7:16, 20 “You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? Thus you will know them by their fruits.” OVER One Billion Catholics

John.13: 35 “By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

Keep learning, listening and sharing

 

[ConstantineTG]

Different stroke for different folks.

Maybe. But like I said, every criticism has a basis, fair or not. Even if the Catholic Church isn’t teaching Marian worship (and I fully believe she does not), given that so many groups are concerned about this then perhaps it is time for some self examination by the Catholics to see that maybe indeed they are going overboard with some stuff. Christianity is always about perfect balance. Even St. Stephen the Protomartyr told the Jews that they were idolizing the temple, and temple worship came from God. But the Jews have driven their devotion to the extreme that the focus of their actions are no longer worshiping God in the temple, but the temple itself. They have boxed God into the temple. It is possible to go overboard even with our devotion to God if our mind loses clarity and sobriety.

Like what, and why, if it feels right, and is in line with the teachings and devotional practises of the CC? Devotion to either Mary or the saints is fine IMHO, just as long as the focus is always God.

I agree and that is where the problem is. There are those who just focus on Mary as if Mary is God. Jesus is the mediator between man and God, and yet some would claim that we can only approach Christ through Mary, as if Christ has become the unapproachable, unattainable God and Mary is His chief prophet. Though it is true that Mary leads us to Christ, it is wrong to believe that she is the only path to Christ.

Then they should be corrected and asked to stay in line with the teachings and devotional practises of the CC.

Definitely! To be fair I’ve never seen the Pope take this kind of extreme devotion. So certainly it is something people on the ground who is misinterpreting and misrepresenting the faith. Better catechesis is needed.

I see no problems, in terms of the proper way in which the catholic faith is practised. Could you be specific?

I think the over-focus on messages from apparitions is a concern. If the teachings handed down from the Fathers is not enough, then there is something seriously wrong with our faith. Some of the claims of the visionaries have Mary saving the world. The world has already been saved by Christ, and He is the only savior of the world. While Mary does aid in saving us (in the East we pray, “Most Holy Theotokos, Save Us,” it does not imply that Mary somehow saves us in a way that Christ himself does), we shouldn’t have a view of Mary as somehow the source of salvation itself. Images of an angry God itching to destroy the world as a way of delivering justice to the unrepentant sinners is contrary to the Gospel where despite the hardness of hearts of the Jews and the rest of the world at that time, God became man to save us all.

Defensiveness serves no purpose. If I were to witness a problem regarding Marian devotion, taken too far, then I would simply remind him/her to stay in line with the teachings and devotional practises of the CC.

I agree.

 

[GaryTaylor]

All the Apostolic Church’s venerate Mary. That’s the history of the Church documented throughout time. For those on the path and those who are not, our prayers are with you.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I have been a Catholic for 20+ years now and have NEVER witnessed anyone “overstep the boundary of veneration and worship”. Perhaps it is a cultural distaste you have–well, that’s certainly nothing Catholics need be ashamed of or “acknowledge” as bad or explain away. Love will demonstrate itself in acts of love. I’d rather have to deal with a little “wild fire” than to coldly look at others, judging their actions according to my personal likes and dislikes. I fear this is what you are doing. If so, joining another church isn’t going change your attitude–indeed, if you think you are joining a “better” one you may even become more prone to such condescension–something I’m sure any Orthodox priest would tell you is no more acceptable to them than it is to Catholics. It is always better to look at the actions of others with humility because those who judge will be judged as they judge.

As a Catholic of 36 years, I can tell you that my decision to convert is not about one Church being better over the other, but my own pursuit of my own spiritual growth. And my comments here are not about judging out of boastfulness. I have held these views for a while now. I haven’t even officially begun my catechumenate, so don’t think I haven’t been Catholic for a long time.

A wildfire by any measure is bad. We shouldn’t justify wrongdoing just becuase it is convenient. In the Orthodox Church the opposite is happening, there is less veneration of the Theotokos in North America because of the Protestant converts coming in and refusing the Orthodox way of veneration towards the Theotokos. But I’m glad that some of the clergy who are converts themselves are addressing this issue. Like I said, we just have to be honest with ourselves about the situation. There are limits to everything, we have to recognize that. Perhaps the problem here is that many Catholics don’t think there is a limit.

 

[peace2u2]

Is it Scriptural that the devil hates the Mother more than the Son? Is praying to Mary more “efficient” than praying directly to God the Father because she can plead on our behalf?

Maybe it’s linguistics and the psychology behind it, but a mother is “greater” than the child she bears. Ergo, in my Protestant mind, I just can’t fathom putting her “above” God the Creator of all.

I suppose the devil hates her more because it was her yes that allowed God to become man and step into our world-And we don’t put Mary above God the Creator of all…we put Mary above all other creatures that He created just as God did and does. She was created for Him and for us.

Also is praying to Mary more efficient than praying directly to God because she can plead on our behalf? I’m not sure. Maybe because she does it better than I ever could and what I do know is that the prayer she takes from me and brings to the place where God dwells is transformed with her beauty and her eloquence not mine, sinner that I am- so maybe yes because He can’t refuse anything good that she requests on our behalf.

Also just want to point out that if according to your religion status you state your Protestant yet you are inspired by the Saints, I can’t think of one Saint who didn’t love Mary the way that I’m describing. Check out Saint Louis De Montfort and St. Bernard who write exquisite fondness and devotion to the Blessed Virgin. Plus post #127 by Della explains Mary nicely as well.

Perhaps if you bring your troubles of Mary to God and ask Him to help you understand her. Ask that your mind and heart and soul be open to all that He would like to reveal to you about her and be sincere in your asking without any doubting or reservations and even if you come to know the truth which just may change your life.

Peace 2 U in your spiritual journey home to Heaven.

 

[joe370]

***And what “Marian Prayer” does nor lead to Jesus as it’s Goal?:***shrug:

 

[joe370]

ConstantineTG - Maybe. But like I said, every criticism has a basis, fair or not. Even if the Catholic Church isn’t teaching Marian worship (and I fully believe she does not), given that so many groups are concerned about this then perhaps it is time for some self examination by the Catholics to see that maybe indeed they are going overboard with some stuff.

I am not aware of any catholics that are guilty of such things. However, if there are certain catholics who are guilty of going overboard, then yes, I agree with you 100%.

I agree and that is where the problem is. There are those who just focus on Mary as if Mary is God. Jesus is the mediator between man and God, and yet some would claim that we can only approach Christ through Mary, as if Christ has become the unapproachable, unattainable God and Mary is His chief prophet. Though it is true that Mary leads us to Christ, it is wrong to believe that she is the only path to Christ.

I know of no one why believes such a thing. Perhaps you could cite an example?

Definitely! To be fair I’ve never seen the Pope take this kind of extreme devotion. So certainly it is something people on the ground who is misinterpreting and misrepresenting the faith. Better catechesis is needed.

If it is being done then yes, I absolutely agree. Of course catechesis is always needed.

I think the over-focus on messages from apparitions is a concern. If the teachings handed down from the Fathers is not enough, then there is something seriously wrong with our faith. Some of the claims of the visionaries have Mary saving the world. The world has already been saved by Christ, and He is the only savior of the world. While Mary does aid in saving us (in the East we pray, “Most Holy Theotokos, Save Us,” it does not imply that Mary somehow saves us in a way that Christ himself does), we shouldn’t have a view of Mary as somehow the source of salvation itself. Images of an angry God itching to destroy the world as a way of delivering justice to the unrepentant sinners is contrary to the Gospel where despite the hardness of hearts of the Jews and the rest of the world at that time, God became man to save us all.

I do not believe that God is itching to destroy the world, but sadly hell is real, awful in ways we cannot comprehend no doubt, and forever; the concept of hell, and God allowing it, in my experience, is the main reason why many abhor Christianity.

Why would anyone believe that Mary is the Savior of the world? That is silly and if someone expressed that belief to me then I would attempt to correct him/her. Apparitions (approved) serve to bolster one’s faith, reminding us to stay the course especially when our faith becomes rather arid, which was the case with me, and Fatima was incredibly helpful in terms of restoring my belief in God. Of course all apparitions can be completely ignored, as per the CC.

 

[GaryTaylor]

To allude to souls gone astray is to distract from those clearly on the Path. They exist in “every” congregation as flowers and weeds grow together. We focus on the Light and pray for those in the dark. Then what are we to say of all those good souls on the path? You see, regardless, this does testify to the fact of the great Love then also. For it “stands to reason” one would have to exist for the other to. So then let it be known also that the BVM is held in the highest regard in the Catholic Church as indicated by “Dogma”. Clearly that question is answered.

I suggest one read Sacred Scripture prior to partaking in this ill advised fragmented witch hunt, created by diabolical disorientation. Perhaps when one shakes their own paranoia and fear within Gods Kingdom they will realize none of that chaos and confusion is of God. Those are not attributes of the Lord.

“Let every man be swift to hear but slow to speak” James

 

[Della]

As a Catholic of 36 years, I can tell you that my decision to convert is not about one Church being better over the other, but my own pursuit of my own spiritual growth. And my comments here are not about judging out of boastfulness. I have held these views for a while now. I haven’t even officially begun my catechumenate, so don’t think I haven’t been Catholic for a long time.

If you want to go to a different church, that’s up to you, but you are simply wrong about how Catholics think of Mary I don’t care how long you’ve been a Catholic. Many a cradle Catholic has left the Church for greener pastures. I hope that’s what you find–instead of spinach.

A wildfire by any measure is bad. We shouldn’t justify wrongdoing just becuase it is convenient. In the Orthodox Church the opposite is happening, there is less veneration of the Theotokos in North America because of the Protestant converts coming in and refusing the Orthodox way of veneration towards the Theotokos. But I’m glad that some of the clergy who are converts themselves are addressing this issue. Like I said, we just have to be honest with ourselves about the situation. There are limits to everything, we have to recognize that. Perhaps the problem here is that many Catholics don’t think there is a limit.

As a convert from a very anti-Catholic background I can tell you you are dead wrong. I see converts as more Marian than many a cradle Catholic because we had to win through a good deal of misinformation, cultural bias, and spiritual fear in order to accept what the Church teaches about her. We converts love Our Lady as much as any cradle Catholic and a good many of us appreciate why we do so better than some cradle Catholics because we had to delve into the teachings instead of doing devotions because “that’s the way we’ve always done things” kind of laziness some Catholics have towards their faith. They, not converts are more subject to proselytisation by others.

Converts often have a deeper understanding of how Mary fits into the whole of Catholic teaching because we HAD to learn it in order to be reconciled with the Church. So don’t talk to me about what converts are doing to the Church. In many cases we have revived it and are the ones pushing for a return to traditional reverence while many a cradle Catholic has been and still is content with the “kum-by-ya” type of worship we fled like the plague. I could go on, but I find your arguments specious and hollow–ones made up by someone trying to talk himself out of the faith he embraced for 36 years.

 

[rbarcia]

I think this comment goes both ways. There are certainly those who say they only venerate but actually worship.

What is the difference between venerate and worship?

How does one practice veneration without falling into worship?

Is falling on your knees worship?

Please provide a practical answer:

Proper veneration practices?

Proper worship practices?

Thanks,

 

[pablope]

Sorry, in my Protestant church, we’re not exposed to the adoration of Virgin Mary. In fact, I’m still not sure where the line is between adoration and worship — is it the words, state of mind, emphasizing more/less than God?

The first christians worshipped through the “breaking of the bread”…another name for the Mass…which we catholics and orthodox still do to this day…this is the manner of worship.

Praying is not equated to worship. Protestants, however…since the Reformation disregarded aspects of the Christian faith…including the mass…now have resorted to equating praying as worshipping.

 

[Della]

What is the difference between venerate and worship?

How does one practice veneration without falling into worship?

Is falling on your knees worship?

Please provide a practical answer:

Proper veneration practices?

Proper worship practices?

Thanks,

Worship, for Catholics, means offering the one sacrifice of Christ. By doing so, at Christ’s command, we are adoring God through the highest form of prayer we can offer.

Merely kneeling or asking for intercession is not worship. We certainly kneel before God, but we humans also kneel for other persons/other reasons. The simple act of kneeling is not, therefore worship. We can certainly ask God to answer our prayers, but we ask Mary and the saints to pray for us and aid us as God allows them to. God is always the pinnacle of our desire and always the only one whom we worship for we offer no sacrifices to anyone but God and we expect no one to say yes or no to our prayers than God. Intermediaries can be any fellow believer (or even unbelievers who ask in faith) for we are all God’s creatures and Christ died for all humanity. But only God is the giver of life and the taker of it, not anyone else, therefore only he receives our adoration, as well honor, praise and thanks. However, we can praise saints for their virtues and faithfulness and honor them and thank them, but we know that all those praises, honor and thanks ultimately go to God for the saints give them all to him on our behalf.

 

[pablope]

What exactly does the term “Queen of Heaven” mean? Excuse my ignorance, but if God is King, does that mean Mary reigns in Heaven as well, although less than God?

I think you are thinking in terms of a secular queen, like the queen of England…which is far from what we Catholics think. We see her as the queen mother…a helper, advovcate, intercessor for us.

 

[pablope]

What is the difference between venerate and worship?

newadvent.org/cathen/05188b.htm

Dulia
(Greek doulia; Latin servitus), a theological term signifying the honour paid to the saints, while latria means worship given to God alone, and hyperdulia the veneration offered to the Blessed Virgin Mary. St. Augustine (City of God X.2) distinguishes two kinds of servitus: “one which is due to men . . . which in Greek is called dulia; the other, latria, which is the service pertaining to the worship of God”. St. Thomas (II-II:103:3) bases the distinction on the difference between God’s supreme dominion and that which one man may exercise over another.

How does one practice veneration without falling into worship?

 

[peace2u2]

To allude to souls gone astray is to distract from those clearly on the Path. They exist in “every” congregation as flowers and weeds grow together. We focus on the Light and pray for those in the dark. Then what are we to say of all those good souls on the path? You see, regardless, this does testify to the fact of the great Love then also. For it “stands to reason” one would have to exist for the other to. So then let it be known also that the BVM is held in the highest regard in the Catholic Church as indicated by “Dogma”. Clearly that question is answered.

I suggest one read Sacred Scripture prior to partaking in this ill advised fragmented witch hunt, created by diabolical disorientation. Perhaps when one shakes their own paranoia and fear within Gods Kingdom they will realize none of that chaos and confusion is of God. Those are not attributes of the Lord.

“Let every man be swift to hear but slow to speak” James

Interesting, that this morning I was catching up on some Women of Grace episodes and there was one that talked a little bit about “diabolical disorientation” and how we should be careful in how we take in information from the world and how the devil will purposely confuse us, where we are under this notion for example that up is down and down is up, so that our senses are “numbed” to the grace of God and the true message of the Gospel of Jesus.

Also it was mentioned that we need to avoid the error that many Protestant and Fundamentalist fall into that of a personal relationship with Jesus-completely-and cut off from everyone else. But in fact Jesus calls us into a people as part of a community of faithful. Mary is just part of that “community of faithful” but she lives in Heaven.

So, like you said perfectly about when one shakes off their own paranoia and fear about Mary, they can understand that Jesus calls on us to develop a relationship with also His Mother, Mary not just Him. Lets face it, Heaven is not going to be just Jesus and me living for eternity, but a multitude of people and we will have all of eternity to get to know each other. No wonder we need to be purified in purgatory before entering Heaven!