Simple question regarding alleged Marian worship?

[PJM]

=Della;10194206]If you want to go to a different church, that’s up to you, but you are simply wrong about how Catholics think of Mary I don’t care how long you’ve been a Catholic. Many a cradle Catholic has left the Church for greener pastures. I hope that’s what you find–instead of spinach.

As a convert from a very anti-Catholic background I can tell you you are dead wrong. I see converts as more Marian than many a cradle Catholic because we had to win through a good deal of misinformation, cultural bias, and spiritual fear in order to accept what the Church teaches about her. We converts love Our Lady as much as any cradle Catholic and a good many of us appreciate why we do so better than some cradle Catholics because we had to delve into the teachings instead of doing devotions because “that’s the way we’ve always done things” kind of laziness some Catholics have towards their faith. They, not converts are more subject to proselytisation by others.

Converts often have a deeper understanding of how Mary fits into the whole of Catholic teaching because we HAD to learn it in order to be reconciled with the Church. So don’t talk to me about what converts are doing to the Church. In many cases we have revived it and are the ones pushing for a return to traditional reverence while many a cradle Catholic has been and still is content with the “kum-by-ya” type of worship we fled like the plague. I could go on, but I find your arguments specious and hollow–ones made up by someone trying to talk himself out of the faith he embraced for 36 years.

HI DELLA,

MY REPLY DOES NOT APPLY TO YOU PERSONALLY BUT RATHER TO CAHTHOLICS WHO LEAVE THE ONLY CHURCH FOUNDED BY JESUS CHRIST…MT. 16:15-19; and GUIDED BY JESUS HIMSELF; NOT ONLY THE H S. … JN.17:15-19 AND PROTECTED FROM ALL POSSIBLE ERRORS ON FAITH AND MORALS. MARY IS A FAITH ISSUE.

2 John 8-9 Anyone who is so “progressive” as not to remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God; whoever remains in the teaching has the Father and the Son

Jesus is only found where there is direct apostolic succession:thumbsup:

John.10: 16 “And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd”

Ps.127:1 “Unless the LORD builds the house, those who build it labor in vain.
Unless the LORD watches over the city, the watchman stays awake in vain”

Heb. 6: 4-8 "For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened,** [Baptized into the CC]** who have tasted the heavenly gift, [Jesus: In Catholic Holy Communion] and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, [Confirmed in the Catholic Faith] and have tasted the goodness of the word [The The Fullness of Truth that ONLY the CC can teach …Mt. 16:15-19] of God and the powers of the age to come,** if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contemp**t. For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.

This is what God thinks of those who choose to leave His only Church and Faith. GOD WILL JUDGE EACH OF US BASED ON WHAT HE HAS MADE POSSIBLR FOR US TO KNOW’ NOT WHAT WE CHOOSE TO AGREE WITH

**Rev. 20:12 **“And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne, and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Any one considering such a act need to take this post message very, very seriously.

 

[rbarcia]

Worship, for Catholics, means offering the one sacrifice of Christ. By doing so, at Christ’s command, we are adoring God through the highest form of prayer we can offer.

Merely kneeling or asking for intercession is not worship. We certainly kneel before God, but we humans also kneel for other persons/other reasons. The simple act of kneeling is not, therefore worship. We can certainly ask God to answer our prayers, but we ask Mary and the saints to pray for us and aid us as God allows them to. God is always the pinnacle of our desire and always the only one whom we worship for we offer no sacrifices to anyone but God and we expect no one to say yes or no to our prayers than God. Intermediaries can be any fellow believer (or even unbelievers who ask in faith) for we are all God’s creatures and Christ died for all humanity. But only God is the giver of life and the taker of it, not anyone else, therefore only he receives our adoration, as well honor, praise and thanks. However, we can praise saints for their virtues and faithfulness and honor them and thank them, but we know that all those praises, honor and thanks ultimately go to God for the saints give them all to him on our behalf.

Thanks for the answer.

So, in this view, does this state that Catholics feel Protestants, who do not have a Mass, actually do not worship God at all?

 

[Della]

Thanks for the answer.

So, in this view, does this state that Catholics feel Protestants, who do not have a Mass, actually do not worship God at all?

No, not at all. Actually, Protestants, by reason of their trinitarian baptism are in union with the Church, although imperfectly. So, the Church, by offering up the one sacrifice of Christ, is offering it for all the baptized as well as all for whom Christ died–all the world. So, everyone receives the benefits of the Mass in some way other another. Protestant services are worship services in that they believe in and draw on the graces of Christ’s redemption. So, the act of worship is valid for anyone and everyone who offers sincere prayer to God. At least, that’s how I understand it.

 

[EIF5A]

Jesus is only found where there is direct apostolic succession:thumbsup:

So any Christian who is not Catholic does not find Jesus? Is this the official Catholic teaching?

True or False: Protestants are apostates.

 

[Della]

So any Christian who is not Catholic does not find Jesus? Is this the official Catholic teaching?

I’m sure PJM didn’t mean that. Rather, he probably meant that Jesus is definitely found in the Apostolic Church, which is the Catholic Church.

True or False: Protestants are apostates.

False. They’re not even heretics, in the formal sense of the word, because they know nothing else. They would only be apostates if they denied Christ, as would a Catholic who did so.

 

[rbarcia]

HI DELLA,

MY REPLY DOES NOT APPLY TO YOU PERSONALLY BUT RATHER TO CAHTHOLICS WHO LEAVE THE ONLY CHURCH FOUNDED BY JESUS CHRIST…MT. 16:15-19; and GUIDED BY JESUS HIMSELF; NOT ONLY THE H S. … JN.17:15-19 AND PROTECTED FROM ALL POSSIBLE ERRORS ON FAITH AND MORALS. MARY IS A FAITH ISSUE.

2 John 8-9 Anyone who is so “progressive” as not to remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God; whoever remains in the teaching has the Father and the Son

Jesus is only found where there is direct apostolic succession:thumbsup:

John.10: 16 “And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd”

Ps.127:1 “Unless the LORD builds the house, those who build it labor in vain.
Unless the LORD watches over the city, the watchman stays awake in vain”

Heb. 6: 4-8 "For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened,** [Baptized into the CC]** who have tasted the heavenly gift, [Jesus: In Catholic Holy Communion] and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, [Confirmed in the Catholic Faith] and have tasted the goodness of the word [The The Fullness of Truth that ONLY the CC can teach …Mt. 16:15-19] of God and the powers of the age to come,** if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contemp**t. For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.

This is what God thinks of those who choose to leave His only Church and Faith. GOD WILL JUDGE EACH OF US BASED ON WHAT HE HAS MADE POSSIBLR FOR US TO KNOW’ NOT WHAT WE CHOOSE TO AGREE WITH

**Rev. 20:12 **“And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne, and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Any one considering such a act need to take this post message very, very seriously.

So you are saying in the Hebrews Quote (which you added text to), states if anyone leaves the catholic church, they can never come back?

enlightened means “Infant Baptism”?

All these events that take place (Most of the time), before a child is 14, and they are damned when they leave?

I was raised catholic, performed all these rituals, and now I guess I am damned since I am no longer Catholic.

 

[Della]

So you are saying in the Hebrews Quote (which you added text to), states if anyone leaves the catholic church, they can never come back?

If that is what he means then he is wrong.

enlightened means “Infant Baptism”?

Again, his idea, not that of the Church.

All these events that take place (Most of the time), before a child is 14, and they are damned when they leave?

They take place at an early age to confer grace, like an innoculation, so they will, hopefully, take advantage of the graces of the sacraments as they age. But no one is automatically damned for leaving the Church, nor even excommunicated (which is not a sentence of damnation).

I was raised catholic, performed all these rituals, and now I guess I am damned since I am no longer Catholic.

Not at all. To return all you need do is talk to your priest, probably confess your sins, and you’d be good to go.

 

[PJM]

=rbarcia;10199163]Thanks for the answer.

So, in this view, does this state that Catholics feel Protestants, who do not have a Mass, actually do not worship God at all?

NO! Of course not

But a more precise question might be are they doing it as desired; even as Mandated by Christ Himself? No they are not

Luke 22:20-21 And taking bread, he gave thanks, and brake; and gave to them, saying: This is my body, which is given for you.* Do this for a commemoration of me.* [20] In like manner the chalice also, after he had supped, saying: This is the chalice, the new testament in my blood, which shall be shed for you."

PAUL: 1st. Cor. 11: 23-27"For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread. And giving thanks, broke, and said:*** Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me. In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me. *** For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come. Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord

It remains Christ; acting THROUGH HIS priest that makes the miracle a reality. But a REALITY IT IS

We Worship God REALLY PRESENT within our midst: "Glorified Body; Blood; Soul and Divinity. Protestans settle for OH SOOOO MUCH LESS:shrug:

 

[peace2u2]

Quote:
I was raised catholic, performed all these rituals, and now I guess I am damned since I am no longer Catholic.

Not at all. To return all you need do is talk to your priest, probably confess your sins, and you’d be good to go.

I think the person is asking are they damned if they do not have any plans on re-entering the Catholic Church? Their quote doesn’t ask what do they do to return, but what happens if they refuse to return?

Does this mean the person above in the quote who states they were raised Catholic and obviously left, joined a Protestant denomination are only damned if they refuse to re-enter the Catholic church?

Or does it mean that they are only damned if they come to the knowledge that the Catholic Church is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church that Christ founded and then refuse to re-enter and remain in whatever denomination they are in?

So in other words if they remain ignorant of this truth, are they protected by their ignorance and not damned?

This is confusing.

 

[Della]

I think the person is asking are they damned if they do not have any plans on re-entering the Catholic Church? Their quote doesn’t ask what do they do to return, but what happens if they refuse to return?

Does this mean the person above in the quote who states they were raised Catholic and obviously left, joined a Protestant denomination are only damned if they refuse to re-enter the Catholic church?

Or does it mean that they are only damned if they come to the knowledge that the Catholic Church is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church that Christ founded and then refuse to re-enter and remain in whatever denomination they are in?

So in other words if they remain ignorant of this truth, are they protected by their ignorance and not damned?

This is confusing.

We cannot know if they are damned or not, no matter what they know or don’t know. Only God can determine that. It would be better to say that if they know they put themselves into the danger of hell. Leaving the Church, in and of itself wasn’t the best decision, but most people leave because of some bad experience or misunderstanding. If they truly don’t know they ought to be reconciled to the Church, they cannot be guilty of what they do not know.

 

[joe370]

We cannot know if they are damned or not, no matter what they know or don’t know. Only God can determine that. It would be better to say that if they know they put themselves into the danger of hell. Leaving the Church, in and of itself wasn’t the best decision, but most people leave because of some bad experience or misunderstanding. If they truly don’t know they ought to be reconciled to the Church, they cannot be guilty of what they do not know.

That makes good sense.

 

[PJM]

=peace2u2;10201390]I think the person is asking are they damned if they do not have any plans on re-entering the Catholic Church? Their quote doesn’t ask what do they do to return, but what happens if they refuse to return?

Does this mean the person above in the quote who states they were raised Catholic and obviously left, joined a Protestant denomination are only damned if they refuse to re-enter the Catholic church?

Or does it mean that they are only damned if they come to the knowledge that the Catholic Church is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church that Christ founded and then refuse to re-enter and remain in whatever denomination they are in?

So in other words if they remain ignorant of this truth, are they protected by their ignorance and not damned?

This is confusing.

First here is what St paul and the Bible teach:

*Heb. 6: 4-8 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, [Baptized into the CC] who have tasted the heavenly gift, [Jesus: In Catholic Holy Communion] and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, [Confirmed in the Catholic Faith;WHICH IS AN ADOLESANT freewill CHOICE AND COMMITMENT! [/COLOR]*and have tasted the goodness of the word [The The Fullness of Truth that ONLY the CC can teach …Mt. 16:15-19] of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.

It is seemingly COMPLETELY- logical that because there is Only “One God”; that there can be Only one set of Faith beliefs [an undeniable fact; even if some choose to ignore or deny it] Our perfect God cannot hold contradictory views on the same topics.

And just as there was “Only One Chosen People” in the OT: Exodus 6:7 “And I will take you to myself for my people, I will be your God: and you shall know that I am the Lord your God who brought you out from the work prison of the Egyptians” …**Exodus 3:7 ** “And the Lord said to him: I have seen the affliction of my people in Egypt, and I have heard their cry because of the rigour of them that are over the works” SO TOO this Tradition of “only One” is continued and Perfected by Christ is Founding Only One New Faith; and One Church [a term invinted by Christ] with only One Leader; a man selected; protected; guided and guarded by God Himself. Mt. 16:18-19, just as Yahweh had done with Noah, Abram, Moses, David, Jacob and the Prophets; so was he doing for present times with Peter!

GOD WILL JUDGE; BECAUSE GOD MUST JUDGE EACH OF US ON WHAT HE; GOD, MAKES POSSIBLE FOR US TO KNOW. NOT WHAT WE WISH, WANT OR PREFURE. AND ON THIS PRECISE BASIS ETERNAL HELL OR HEAVEN WILL BE AWARDED.

pLEASE LET ME KNOW IF YOU HAVE FURTHER QUESTIONS; OR IF i MISSED OR AM UNCLEAR ON ANY OF YOUR POINTS.

GREAT QUESTIONS**

 

[Della]

First here is what St paul and the Bible teach:

*Heb. 6: 4-8 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, [Baptized into the CC] who have tasted the heavenly gift, [Jesus: In Catholic Holy Communion] and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, [Confirmed in the Catholic Faith;WHICH IS AN ADOLESANT freewill CHOICE AND COMMITMENT! [/COLOR]***and have tasted the goodness of the word [The The Fullness of Truth that ONLY the CC can teach …Mt. 16:15-19] of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.

It is seemingly COMPLETELY- logical that because there is Only “One God”; that there can be Only one set of Faith beliefs [an undeniable fact; even if some choose to ignore or deny it] Our perfect God cannot hold contradictory views on the same topics.

And just as there was “Only One Chosen People” in the OT: Exodus 6:7 “And I will take you to myself for my people, I will be your God: and you shall know that I am the Lord your God who brought you out from the work prison of the Egyptians” …**Exodus 3:7 ** “And the Lord said to him: I have seen the affliction of my people in Egypt, and I have heard their cry because of the rigour of them that are over the works” SO TOO this Tradition of “only One” is continued and Perfected by Christ is Founding Only One New Faith; and One Church [a term invinted by Christ] with only One Leader; a man selected; protected; guided and guarded by God Himself. Mt. 16:18-19, just as Yahweh had done with Noah, Abram, Moses, David, Jacob and the Prophets; so was he doing for present times with Peter!

GOD WILL JUDGE; BECAUSE GOD MUST JUDGE EACH OF US ON WHAT HE; GOD, MAKES POSSIBLE FOR US TO KNOW. NOT WHAT WE WISH, WANT OR PREFURE. AND ON THIS PRECISE BASIS ETERNAL HELL OR HEAVEN WILL BE AWARDED.

pLEASE LET ME KNOW IF YOU HAVE FURTHER QUESTIONS; OR IF i MISSED OR AM UNCLEAR ON ANY OF YOUR POINTS.

GREAT QUESTIONS

In order to commit apostacy one must completely deny Christ. Those who leave the Church for a Protestant community have NOT denied Christ. Please don’t put words into the mouth of St. Paul or the Church according to you personal interpretation of Scripture (that’s not the Catholic way of doing biblical exegesis). You are only confusing people by doing this, besides deciding who is and who isn’t an apostate, which is also not your judgment call to make.

 

[Reuben_J]

We cannot know if they are damned or not, no matter what they know or don’t know. Only God can determine that. It would be better to say that if they know they put themselves into the danger of hell. Leaving the Church, in and of itself wasn’t the best decision, but most people leave because of some bad experience or misunderstanding. If they truly don’t know they ought to be reconciled to the Church, they cannot be guilty of what they do not know.

A good explanation. Some Protestants tend to believe that Catholicism condemns people to hell. It’s never the case. She does not know who is in hell, not Judas or the worst villains in history. Only God knows and considering his mercy we may never know the mitigating factors that can save that person.

 

[PJM]

=Della;10202583]In order to commit apostacy one must completely deny Christ. Those who leave the Church for a Protestant community have NOT denied Christ. Please don’t put words into the mouth of St. Paul or the Church according to you personal interpretation of Scripture (that’s not the Catholic way of doing biblical exegesis). You are only confusing people by doing this, besides deciding who is and who isn’t an apostate, which is also not your judgment call to make.

Hi Della,

Thanks for your views.

While they may NOT be apostates [Pauls term not mine]; the message is neverthrless true.

There IS but one God

One God can and does have ONLY One set of Faith beliefs

Christ: a Perfect God DID found His One Church [the NT has over 100 references to it]; the Catholic Church as the Means of Salvation. Which too is a catholic Teaching.

CCC #780 The **Church in this world is the sacrament of salvation, **the sign and the instrument of the communion of God and men."

CCC#
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

CCC#847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation

So, Della, I don’t mean to argue; but DO HOLD to what I posted as being the Position of the CC.

God will; because as a “Just, Fair and Perfect God,” he must pass judgment based not on our preferences BUT on what He God has made possible for us to know. IF we then reject it; we WILL be so judged.

God Bless you!

Pat/PJM

 

[murraymuzz]

I was under the impression that the only way for a Catholic to worship was to either attend the Holy Mass/Divine Liturgy and anything outside those is just considered intercession, either for ourselves or others.

 

[Della]

I was under the impression that the only way for a Catholic to worship was to either attend the Holy Mass/Divine Liturgy and anything outside those is just considered intercession, either for ourselves or others.

Bingo!

@PJM. The issue isn’t what is true, the issue is who is culpable and why. We cannot know why anyone has left the CC for another faith community and how culpable he may be. Only God can know that. So, no matter how many Bible verses you quote, you cannot say who is saved and who isn’t based on that. We can say, as I did say, that such a one may have placed himself in danger of hell. But, truly, that is all we can say for God judges hearts/intentions, not us, and he knows the mitigating circumstances which we do not know. St. Paul was writing about people who denied Christ and returned to paganism/Judaism, so it’s not the same situation. Any even in cases where a person leaves Christianity, only God can know why and what they knew. I am not saying there will be no consequences, I’m only saying that that is up to God, not us, to determine.

 

[PJM]

=murraymuzz;10205394]I was under the impression that the only way for a Catholic to worship was to either attend the Holy Mass/Divine Liturgy and anything outside those is just considered intercession, either for ourselves or others.

No, no my friend

Eucharistic Adoration too qualifies as DIVINE WORSHIP; becaue it is

Any and ALL Wordhip of God Triune or Of Christ is Divine Worship. It’a WHAT we do and intend; not so much as “Where” we happen to be is th issue. Although Both Mass and Eucharistiac Adoration are the IDEAL:thumbsup:

 

[Della]

No, no my friend

Eucharistic Adoration too qualifies as DIVINE WORSHIP; becaue it is

Any and ALL Wordhip of God Triune or Of Christ is Divine Worship. It’a WHAT we do and intend; not so much as “Where” we happen to be is th issue. Although Both Mass and Eucharistiac Adoration are the IDEAL:thumbsup:

Of course, we’d have no Exposition and Adoration without the Liturgy of the Mass in which the consecration takes place. So, it’s all of a piece.

 

[kimg901]

I havent had a chance to read all the posts here but as far as worship? No. We do her honor for being the Mother Of God. We ask for her prayers. Do it not say to honor your father and mother? We praise the Father and we honor our mother. We ask that she intercedes on our behalf. Praise be to God and thank Mary, ever virgin for saying yes to our Lord!!!