Sin to sleep with girlfriend?

[thewanderer]

It sounded to me as if it was being said that lying together over time should cause a sexual attraction that would be sinful but now sexual attraction before marriage is good?.. it’s just bad when lying together? Is sexual attraction the only qualifier for a good marriage? So there weren’t any successful prearranged marriages in history?

I’m sorry if I wasn’t very clear. What I was trying to say is that if two people are attracted to each other, (which should be the case for the vast majority of couples dating) then it is very imprudent for them to make a habit of sleeping in the same bed as the temptation to go too far will increase with such habitual physical closeness. Why you leap from this to prearranged marriages is, I must admit confusing, but I hope this clears up what I was trying to say.

I thought money and communications were the top two primary reasons for divorce.
Look at how many marriages start off with “good” sexual attraction and then still fail.

Do I dispute any of the above? No. Why does this have anything to do with what I have said?

Sexual attraction is no more a guarantee for a good sexual relationship than no sexual attraction. Are the chances greater? Yes, but that does not give a marriage any better chance to be successful than great communication between the two. I believe great communication can overcome sexual dysfunction.

I am not trying to claim that sexual attraction is the most important factor or that its more important than good communication. I really have no idea where you are getting the idea that I would think that. The point I am trying to make is that sexual attraction is the norm and ought to be expected. A lack of sexual attraction is a defect in a relationship. If this defect exists from the very beginning of a relationship it is highly unlikely that it will ever exist in that relationship. Because of this it is normally very unwise to be involved in a relationship where one of the parties is not attracted to the other. Are there cases of it working out? Sure, of course. Does that mean that people shouldn’t be strongly cautioned about such a relationship? No, because if one or the other person is not attracted to each other it will certainly be an extra hardship for the duration of the marriage, it is not ssomething to be taken on lightly.

Just because there is no sexual attraction before marriage does not mean it will not present itself in a marriage of two people who truly love each other. Can you not see love existing without sex?

Umm, of course love can exist without sex. I love my fiance, I am not having sex with him. Again, I really don’t know why you think I think that. Although I must say that it is not a good idea to go into marriage hoping for sexual attraction to develop. Either both parties must be well aware it is non-existant, fully understanding how that will affect their marriage, and expecting that it will never change, or they should break it off. Yes, some people do develop an attraction for their spouse only after marriage, but being married is no gaurantee that you will develop such feelings. If you are not attracted before marriage you have to assume that you will not become attracted afterwards, and that is a difficult way to live a married life, both for yourself and for your spouse. It is not something to be taken on lightly.

 

[thewanderer]

To be honest, Socrates, it sounds as though you think that I think sex, sexual attraction, and feelings are all that is important (or even the most important things) for marriage. The problem is, that is nowhere near my understanding of the matter, you are simply reading all sorts of things into my posts which are not there.

 

[Socrates1889]

My original post that started all this was when I posted this quote:

If you can sleep habitually in the same bed without either of you ever being tempted to go further than you should, you should not be in a relationship with each other.

All I said was that it was a bit harsh, and I don’t think it’s true. That was the ONLY point I was trying to make.

Saying someone should NOT be in a relationship is very definitive.

 

[Socrates1889]

To be honest, Socrates, it sounds as though you think that I think sex, sexual attraction, and feelings are all that is important (or even the most important things) for marriage. The problem is, that is nowhere near my understanding of the matter, you are simply reading all sorts of things into my posts which are not there.

I just thought you were saying that is couldn’t, wouldn’t, shouldn’t exist without it.



sorry… just wanted to lighten up the mood with a little Dr. Seuss.

 

[thewanderer]

My original post that started all this was when I posted this quote:

All I said was that it was a bit harsh, and I don’t think it’s true. That was the ONLY point I was trying to make.

Saying someone should NOT be in a relationship is very definitive.

I already corrected that after your first post. Instead I said that in the vast majority of cases they should not be.

 

[Marie1234]

Thank you for being so kind. I just don’t think sexual desire the most important. Isn’t Congenial love love without passion or lust but the fully giving of ourselves… I see sex as more of a physical need beyond the emotionally intimate and spiritual connection a couple may have.

I just can not see my husband being just my friend if we were to have never had sex. The love I feel for him is not of friendship, it is something much deeper that I felt before marriage and sex did not change it. I’m not fond of the phase “soul mate” but that is what it feels like.

:

I see what you’re saying now, and yes I agree that there are different types of love that one can experience with different people. Agape (selfless, unconditional love), Eros(romantic love), Philia (friendship), and Storge(affection). All are love even though they are expressed and felt differently. I agree that sexual desire is not the most important type of love involved in a marriage but it is important. The most important is Agape. And yes, I think it is more than possible to feel Eros toward someone without actually having sex with them.

Lust is never good in a relationship. It’s kind of the opposite of love. But Eros accompanied with Agape is the kind of love all married people should hope and strive to experience. All dating people should seek it too.

Sex is the physical expression of Eros and hopefully Agape as well. By performing the sexual act with the one you are in love with and married to is an expression of that love and spiritual connection that you feel with your spouse. It’s giving yourself to another and wanting to make the other person feel happy and loved. It’s not just a physical connection, but a spiritual one as well.

Therefore sex is not just a physical need, but a completion and solidification of Agape and Eros. It’s beautiful and Holy. It’s a sacrament.

By the way, I never used to believe in the concept of a soul mate, but I recently had some events in occur in my life that changed my mind…I know exactly how you feel

 

[Socrates1889]

I see what you’re saying now, and yes I agree that there are different types of love that one can experience with different people. Agape (selfless, unconditional love), Eros(romantic love), Philia (friendship), and Storge(affection). All are love even though they are expressed and felt differently. I agree that sexual desire is not the most important type of love involved in a marriage but it is important. The most important is Agape. And yes, I think it is more than possible to feel Eros toward someone without actually having sex with them.

Lust is never good in a relationship. It’s kind of the opposite of love. But Eros accompanied with Agape is the kind of love all married people should hope and strive to experience. All dating people should seek it too.

Sex is the physical expression of Eros and hopefully Agape as well. By performing the sexual act with the one you are in love with and married to is an expression of that love and spiritual connection that you feel with your spouse. It’s giving yourself to another and wanting to make the other person feel happy and loved. It’s not just a physical connection, but a spiritual one as well.

Therefore sex is not just a physical need, but a completion and solidification of Agape and Eros. It’s beautiful and Holy. It’s a sacrament.

By the way, I never used to believe in the concept of a soul mate, but I recently had some events in occur in my life that changed my mind…I know exactly how you feel

Thank You… as you can see I am not a person that is able to express what I am thinking very well. Hopefully this site with help with that also. I must say this thread has been exhausting to me.

 

[Driver_8]

I’m just going to throw this out there because I totally see where the OP is coming from on this one.

1. It really annoys me how everyone can be so quick to judge that 2 people sleeping in the same bed can be automatically inclined to have sex SIMPLY because they’re sleeping in the same bed. In fact I’m pretty sure many non-marital sexual encounters start in a bar or a party where the advances are made and THEN move to the bed.
2. All this discussion about “scandal” caused makes me want to scream because let’s face it everyone, one way or another, will have their opinion on what 2 people are doing. Why should 2 people, with the purest of intentions and will power who do respect each other enough to not engage in sex while still enjoying each other’s company as they sleep, have to scrupulously worry about what others think just because nobody might believe that they didn’t have sex or even engage in any touching?? Heck, if I told some of my own friends that I was dating someone and wasn’t having sex with them they’d probably think I was lying… If anything everyone else should just MIND.THEIR.OWN.BUSINESS. I’m pretty sure there’s something in the catechism about THAT.

Personally I have found sleeping in the same bed as a significant other to be very relaxing and comforting. But that’s just me so I certainly don’t think I’m speaking for anyone in particular other than myself. I know my limits and whatnot so I know what I can and cannot resist. If I knew that there’d be trouble of any sort, I would think twice about, if not bail out of, sleeping in the same bed with someone.

To the OP: My only advice is that you talk with a well informed, conscionable (but kind) priest (if you haven’t already I haven’t read your entire thread lol) and talk with him. You said that you’ve had pretty much no problem with temptation and so forth so I think it’s safe to assume that you do know what your intentions are.

And to anyone who is tempted to pull the judgement trigger and say that I’m promoting sin: I have no interest in doing so whatsoever.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

1. It really annoys me how everyone can be so quick to judge that 2 people sleeping in the same bed can be automatically inclined to have sex SIMPLY because they’re sleeping in the same bed. In fact I’m pretty sure many non-marital sexual encounters start in a bar or a party where the advances are made and THEN move to the bed.

What does that have to do with anything?

 

[Driver_8]

What does that have to do with anything?

Well it seems to me that just having two people of opposite genders (who are attracted to each other) sharing a bed is viewed as something that will ALWAYS lead to intercourse, which is a massive assumption. My point is that the desire, the urge, to have sex with someone can be caused (and fulfilled) by just meeting or being with another person in a private or non-private setting and that what REALLY matters are the couple’s intentions and resolve to not give in.

 

[Marie1234]

Well it seems to me that just having two people of opposite genders (who are attracted to each other) sharing a bed is viewed as something that will ALWAYS lead to intercourse.

Premarital sex is not the only sin that can be committed in such a situation… it certainly isn’t wise to put yourself or the one you love in such a compromising situation, even if you don’t intend on anything happening. Even if you aren’t feeling any temptation, how can be sure the girl isn’t???

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Well it seems to me that just having two people of opposite genders (who are attracted to each other) sharing a bed is viewed as something that will ALWAYS lead to intercourse, which is a massive assumption. My point is that the desire, the urge, to have sex with someone can be caused (and fulfilled) by just meeting or being with another person in a private or non-private setting and that what REALLY matters are the couple’s intentions and resolve to not give in.

Of course you can want to have sex with somebody when not in bed. But in the vast majority of cases intention or not I’d say that sleeping in the same bed as a significant other would increase temptation whatever your intention.

Now maybe you have superhuman will, but most people I know don’t.

 

[Driver_8]

Premarital sex is not the only sin that can be committed in such a situation… it certainly isn’t wise to put yourself or the one you love in such a compromising situation, even if you don’t intend on anything happening. Even if you aren’t feeling any temptation, how can be sure the girl isn’t???

1. I should have clarified that. I don’t think it’s the only thing that could happen and never said that it was. In a way I meant that to mean/include any kind of immoral behavior in general. I thought it would have been implied, but obviously not so my bad.
2. Regarding the last part, again I should clarify that. This is where open and honest communication about where each person stands on things like this is key. Again, I thought it would have been implied, but that’s just me thinking.

 

[tominrichmond]

The traditional view as enunciated in the sources previously cited by another poster, is that deliberately placing oneself in a proximate (near) occasion of sin is sinful.

But whether one accepts that or not, the fundamental question is: why do it? Why even place yourself in a situation where you or your friend might be tempted, or others (family members, friends, the paperboy delivering the paper in the morning and seeing you come out of the young lady’s house in the morning) might be scandalized by your action.

Catholic morality is not the process of figuring out how closely you can flirt with sin without sinning. It’s about seeking perfection, a perfection that would desire not even a whiff of possible scandal or possible means of sinning, ***especially ***with regards to a woman that you might desire to be married to.

Absent some true necessity (e.g., blizzard hits while you’re visiting and there is not one square inch of space elsewhere in the house where you could lie down…and even then, why not sleep on the floor?) why not just show God how much you love Him by shunning any even remote possibility of sinning?

Just very hard to imagine what necessity exists for cuddling/sleeping in your g/f’s bed. If you’re not doing it because it is in some form or fashion pleasurable, why are you doing it, instead of just sleeping on the couch downstairs or on the floor?

 

[Socrates1889]

Catholic morality is not the process of figuring out how closely you can flirt with sin without sinning.

Just very hard to imagine what necessity exists for cuddling/sleeping in your g/f’s bed. If you’re not doing it because it is in some form or fashion pleasurable, why are you doing it, instead of just sleeping on the couch downstairs or on the floor?

I mention before that pre-marriage my husband did it and it was more than a time or two. We never considered ourselves flirting with sin but that’s also because we were conscience of the sin. He’s right, we never did it in a bed, always on the couch or floor with people around or if they weren’t around, someone could walk in at any moment. Without really thinking about it we protected ourselves from sinning.

 

[yunat]

Why is it a near occasion of sin?

They’d be allowed to sit on a couch beside each other, why is the fact that they’re lying down any different?

What am I missing?

Are people really suggesting that if they were camping, they’d not be allowed to bunk in the same tent?

 

[thewanderer]

Why is it a near occasion of sin?

They’d be allowed to sit on a couch beside each other, why is the fact that they’re lying down any different?

What am I missing?

Are people really suggesting that if they were camping, they’d not be allowed to bunk in the same tent?

I think people are saying it depends. Here’s the thing though, there are quite a few people who openly admit that they thought they were strong enough and that such a situation would not be a near occasion of sin for them, but ended up falling because of being in such a situation. Becuase of this it is one that calls for extra caution, just because you are convinced that it will not be a problem for you does not mean that it actually won’t be a problem for you. I think that is why so many people are advising caution here.

 

[yunat]

I think people are saying it depends. Here’s the thing though, there are quite a few people who openly admit that they thought they were strong enough and that such a situation would not be a near occasion of sin for them, but ended up falling because of being in such a situation. Becuase of this it is one that calls for extra caution, just because you are convinced that it will not be a problem for you does not mean that it actually won’t be a problem for you. I think that is why so many people are advising caution here.

I fail to see the difference, whether your awake on a couch or asleep on a bed. Either way, you’ve no intention of having sexual relations with the person your beside.

It smacks of an arbitrary set of man made rules.

Act X while awake and seated is Ok, but Act X while asleep on a bed is sin displeasing to God?

 

[epan]

Hi!

Let’s say that I slept over at my girlfriend’s room, in the same bed. We did nothing else except sleep. Have I committed a sin?

I’ve read various other threads about this topic, so I’d like to clarify:

1. here, I’ve ALREADY slept in the same bed as her, and we did nothing except sleep.
2. I am not asking about whether it is inappropriate, or whether it is a near occasion for sin. I am asking if it is an ACTUAL sin.
3. No one else knew about us sleeping in the same bed, so there is no scandal.

Thank you, I await your answers.

What are you wearing? PJ’s, undies, nude? How big is this bed? Are you likely to make physical contact in your sleep? Would you be cuddling? Kissing?

If your goal is to remain chaste until marriage, this seems at the least to be pushing your luck.

 

[thebookofesther]

“Just as you must get up with much modesty and in doing so give an indication of your piety, so you must also go to bed in a Christian manner, doing this with all possible propriety, only after having prayed to God. To act like this, you must neither undress nor go to bed when anyone else is present. Unless you are married, you must, above all, never go to bed in the presence of anyone of the other sex, for this is entirely contrary to decency and refinement. It is even less allowable for people of different sexes to sleep in the same bed, even if they are only young children, nor is it appropriate for people of the same sex to sleep together. This is what Saint Francis de Sales recommended to Madame de Chantal in regard to her children, when she still lived in the world, as something extremely important and as much a practice of decorum as one of Christian morality and piety.” -St. Jean Baptiste de la Salle