Sinless Mary

[wmscott]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

But please take responsibility for yourself, ja4. Instead of putting it off on others, and least have the courage to say “I don’t see”.

Those of us that are reading the Scriptures in context can see it.

ja4, this is method of reading scripture originated by heretics. It is not used by Jesus and the Apostles, and therefore, is not part of the Divine Deposit of faith that has been handed down to us from them.

One of the sacred traditions is that Mary was sinless. However I think it would be much more useful for you to focus on the basics, instead of sidetracking into such sublime areas.

This is your choice, of course. The biggest “weight to this term” that you have is what you hold in your hand, and thump us over the head with, your Holy Bible, produced entirely from Sacred Tradition, and faithfully preserved and passed on to the faithful along with the rest.

The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Repeating this will not make it true for anyone except yourself. Dorothy clicked her heels together, and said “there is no place like home”, then she woke up. Maybe that will work someday?

No need. All the verses were infallibly recorded by the Catholic Church, and they all reflect 100% of what the Church believes and teaches.

Nevertheless, many of us are asking the intercession of the Sinless Mary on your behalf.

Thanks for following up for me on this one, I think it is to the point now that now matter how much you place the truth in front of JA4 he is not going to see it. Let’s just hope that a seed has been planted and that it is in fertile soil.

 

[wmscott]

This is not about beauty but truth.

Hopefully you don’t engage the cults. They use the same kind of reasoning you do here and they would tell you the samething. What would you do then? View attachment 4183

So now it comes out, do you really think that the CC or the Faithful think in a cult like manner. Is this where this is going to sink to?

 

[guanophore]

This is not about beauty but truth.

Truth is also in the eye of the beholder. When people reject the authority that Jesus appointed, they reject Him, who is the Source of Truth.

1 John 4:6
6 We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and whoever is not from God does not listen to us. From this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error."

We can distinguish Truth by being in unity with those to whom the Truth revealed Himself.

There are some who have determined that Catholics departed from that Truth, and therefore, are not in union with what the Apostles taught.

This position is supported by such persons by using the Scriptures, produced by the very persons who are said to have left the unity of their Source.

When one separates the Scriptures from this context through which they were produced (the Catholic Church) then many errors result.

Hopefully you don’t engage the cults. They use the same kind of reasoning you do here and they would tell you the samething. What would you do then?

Actually I don’t engage them much at all anymore. Most of my efforts I spend on poorly catechized Catholics. It is better to prevent someone from falling into a cult than to try to extricate them after they are taken. A dear friend of mine abandoned her whole life and family to go live with Jesus Christ Lightening Amen, a cult leader she believes embodies the father, son, and HS, and is setting up the New Jerusalem in California somewhere. These are the kind of things that happen when the Scripture is separated from the Sacred Tradition.

They also, like you, reject the teaching about the sinless virgin.

Unlike you, though, they do believe it is possible and recommended to live without sinning.

 

[justasking4]

The Apostolic Constitution ‘Ineffabilis Deus’ issued by Pope Pius lX on December 8 1854 confirms with absolute certainty that Mary was immaculately conceived. There is nothing to prove to nominal Christians like yourself who are outside the Church founded by Christ and steeped in gnosticism, what American Fundamentalism essentially amounts to.

Since we know there is no evidence from Scripture to support the claim of ‘Ineffabilis Deus’ i.e. absolute certainty that Mary was immaculately conceived, does the church then claim the pope got this via some kind of divine revelation?

 

[justasking4]

Truth is also in the eye of the beholder. When people reject the authority that Jesus appointed, they reject Him, who is the Source of Truth.

1 John 4:6
6 We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and whoever is not from God does not listen to us. From this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error."

We can distinguish Truth by being in unity with those to whom the Truth revealed Himself.

There are some who have determined that Catholics departed from that Truth, and therefore, are not in union with what the Apostles taught.

This position is supported by such persons by using the Scriptures, produced by the very persons who are said to have left the unity of their Source.

When one separates the Scriptures from this context through which they were produced (the Catholic Church) then many errors result.

Actually I don’t engage them much at all anymore. Most of my efforts I spend on poorly catechized Catholics. It is better to prevent someone from falling into a cult than to try to extricate them after they are taken. A dear friend of mine abandoned her whole life and family to go live with Jesus Christ Lightening Amen, a cult leader she believes embodies the father, son, and HS, and is setting up the New Jerusalem in California somewhere. These are the kind of things that happen when the Scripture is separated from the Sacred Tradition.

They also, like you, reject the teaching about the sinless virgin.

Unlike you, though, they do believe it is possible and recommended to live without sinning.

Do you believe that a fallen human being can live their lives without ever sinning in thought or deed?

 

[wmscott]

That’s so strange isn’t it wmscott…while I don’t hold the same beliefs as you do with regards to Mary, my life has been blessed tremendously and my relationship with God has flourished over the years…the fullness of His Love and Grace and Truth has saturated my life and has been abundantly evident through all the trials that myself and my family have faced. His peace and comfort and wisdom and strength has always be sufficient to say the least and at times has been completely overwhelming!!! What a great God we have…how diminished is our grace and wisdom and understanding as compared to His!

Peace and God Bless

Thanks for sharing I appreciate your comments. It’s wonderful when you perceive a grace and accept it as a gift from God. It’s like Christmas in a way and getting that one gift you have been waiting for. There are many graces that God places before us; the problem is that we do not always see them for what they are. A lot of that has to do with how receptive we are to the truth and to Him personally. However, as for this thread, I know that there are those who do not believe as Catholics do and this may or may not be due to those individuals not having all of the truth presented to them for them to make a choice in what they are going or not going to believe. Then there are those as with this thread that to admit that the CC is right regarding the Blessed Mother is to admit that they are wrong. No matter that the CC’s teachings regarding the Blessed Mother is grounded in Truth, and that they know or come to understand that it to be true, they will still rebel (Protest) against it. Gifts from God, such as the Blessed Mother and her willingness and ability to intercede for us, are just that “Gifts”. We have to be willing to accept them freely, all of them. However, you must understand also that Gifts from God are also Truths, it can’t be anything else otherwise it would not be from God. I truly hope that there are many, many more graces from God bestowed upon you and your family and let us all pray that where there is Truth there is the Light of recognition.

 

[guanophore]

Since we know there is no evidence from Scripture to support the claim of ‘Ineffabilis Deus’ i.e. absolute certainty that Mary was immaculately conceived,

Well, we read it differently.

Catholics understand scripture from the point of view of those who wrote it.

does the church then claim the pope got this via some kind of divine revelation?

I think this would be a fair assessment. Everything in the NT is considered part of divine revelation.

Do you believe that a fallen human being can live their lives without ever sinning in thought or deed?

If this were not possible,then Christ died in vain. this is one of the fundamentals that I think it would do you well to concentrate upon, instead of chasing after the nailing of jello to the wall. Since you do not understand the basic functions and results of baptism, you will not be able to grasp things like the sinlessness of Mary.

 

[Good_Fella]

Since we know there is no evidence from Scripture to support the claim of ‘Ineffabilis Deus’ i.e. absolute certainty that Mary was immaculately conceived, does the church then claim the pope got this via some kind of divine revelation?

You only believe there is no evidence in Scripture. The Church sees it, but you don’t. Meanwhile the Church can see it by the grace of the Holy Spirit, which is not confined to a book. Jesus founded a Church, and He didn’t write a Bible apart from his Church. Scripture must be interpreted in light of Tradition from whence it comes.

PAX

 

[Good_Fella]

That’s so strange isn’t it wmscott…while I don’t hold the same beliefs as you do with regards to Mary, my life has been blessed tremendously and my relationship with God has flourished over the years…the fullness of His Love and Grace and Truth has saturated my life and has been abundantly evident through all the trials that myself and my family have faced. His peace and comfort and wisdom and strength has always be sufficient to say the least and at times has been completely overwhelming!!! What a great God we have…how diminished is our grace and wisdom and understanding as compared to His!

Peace and God Bless

Neither does Hugh Heffner have anything to complain about - and he’s an atheistic “heathen”.

 

[Good_Fella]

And this is supposed to proof?

A former member of my parish went to Lourdes with a malignant brain tumour the size of a ping-pong ball. The miraculous water from the spring at Masiabelle cured him overnight. There are thousands of such miraculous cures since the Marian apparitions occurred. Bernadette’s body lies in state practically incorrupted. Scientists who have examined her corpse admit their is no known natural explanation and that there can ever be one.

http.//www.catholicpilgrims.com/lourdes/lourdes_photo_aa.htm

 

[Leeann]

Thanks for sharing I appreciate your comments. It’s wonderful when you perceive a grace and accept it as a gift from God. It’s like Christmas in a way and getting that one gift you have been waiting for. There are many graces that God places before us; the problem is that we do not always see them for what they are. A lot of that has to do with how receptive we are to the truth and to Him personally. However, as for this thread, I know that there are those who do not believe as Catholics do and this may or may not be due to those individuals not having all of the truth presented to them for them to make a choice in what they are going or not going to believe. Then there are those as with this thread that to admit that the CC is right regarding the Blessed Mother is to admit that they are wrong. No matter that the CC’s teachings regarding the Blessed Mother is grounded in Truth, and that they know or come to understand that it to be true, they will still rebel (Protest) against it. Gifts from God, such as the Blessed Mother and her willingness and ability to intercede for us, are just that “Gifts”. We have to be willing to accept them freely, all of them. However, you must understand also that Gifts from God are also Truths, it can’t be anything else otherwise it would not be from God. I truly hope that there are many, many more graces from God bestowed upon you and your family and let us all pray that where there is Truth there is the Light of recognition.

That is my daily prayer also wmscott, for everyone.

Peace and God Bless

 

[Leeann]

That is my daily prayer also wmscott, for everyone.

Peace and God Bless

Especially for GOODFELLA!

 

[Good_Fella]

Especially for GOODFELLA!

He y ! I l o v e F O N T / S I Z E / C O L O R !

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;4224432]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Since we know there is no evidence from Scripture to support the claim of ‘Ineffabilis Deus’ i.e. absolute certainty that Mary was immaculately conceived,

guanophore
Well, we read it differently.

Catholics understand scripture from the point of view of those who wrote it.

If it is true that you understand scripture from the point of view of those who wrote it then you don’t really understand what they wrote. Not one of them ever comes close to stating Mary was sinless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
does the church then claim the pope got this via some kind of divine revelation?
guanophore
I think this would be a fair assessment. Everything in the NT is considered part of divine revelation.

I know this about the NT but what of the pope in making the claim Mary was immaculately concieved?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Do you believe that a fallen human being can live their lives without ever sinning in thought or deed?
guanophore
If this were not possible,then Christ died in vain. this is one of the fundamentals that I think it would do you well to concentrate upon, instead of chasing after the nailing of jello to the wall. Since you do not understand the basic functions and results of baptism, you will not be able to grasp things like the sinlessness of Mary

.
I must be misunderstanding you on this. One more time please. Do you think a Christian can live a sinless life? If so, do you know anyone who has ever claimed to have succeeded? Does the church recognize this?

 

[guanophore]

If it is true that you understand scripture from the point of view of those who wrote it then you don't really understand what they wrote.

Scripture cannot be understood correctly without context. The context of the NT is the Catholic Church. It is in this church that the Sacred Tradition lives through the Aposolic Succession.

I can understand why it does not seem to make any sense to others. It is like reading in a vaccuum.

Not one of them ever comes close to stating Mary was sinless.

Well, we read it differently.

We were taught by the Apostles that “full of grace” means that there is no room for sin.

I know this about the NT but what of the pope in making the claim Mary was immaculately concieved?

Actually, it was Mary that testified this about herself. Do you think she was lying?

I must be misunderstanding you on this. One more time please. Do you think a Christian can live a sinless life? If so, do you know anyone who has ever claimed to have succeeded? Does the church recognize this?

You did not misunderstand me. What you misunderstand is the nature and meaning of your baptism. This is why I keep saying that it would be better for you to focus on the basics, instead of trying to grasp matters that are more sublime.

Yes, a Christian can live a sinless life. This is why Jesus died on the cross, to free us from sin.

Yes, the Church teaches that we can live full of grace, just like Mary did. The Church holds up many that lived lives of sanctity who we can follow as role models.

The thinking that we have to sin is right out of the pit.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;4228888]
Originally Posted by justasking4
I must be misunderstanding you on this. One more time please. Do you think a Christian can live a sinless life? If so, do you know anyone who has ever claimed to have succeeded? Does the church recognize this?

guanophore
You did not misunderstand me. What you misunderstand is the nature and meaning of your baptism. This is why I keep saying that it would be better for you to focus on the basics, instead of trying to grasp matters that are more sublime.

Yes, a Christian can live a sinless life. This is why Jesus died on the cross, to free us from sin.

Yes, the Church teaches that we can live full of grace, just like Mary did. The Church holds up many that lived lives of sanctity who we can follow as role models.

The thinking that we have to sin is right out of the pit.

This is an absolute shock to me. I wonder if other catholics believe this. How about starting a thread on this (Can a believer in Christ ever stop sinning and has someone ever achieved this)? I would but my name is pretty much mud around here and i would be dismissed as a quack… View attachment 4189

I’m going to ask my catholic friends in the real world about this.

 

[guanophore]

This is an absolute shock to me. I wonder if other catholics believe this. How about starting a thread on this (Can a believer in Christ ever stop sinning and has someone ever achieved this)?

I am glad that my last two years of investment have finally paid off in some sort of jogging of your mind.

All that time I have been telling you that it would be more efficient if you focused on the basics, this is what I was talking about.

If you do not believe that a believer cannot stop sinning, then you have a deficient understanding of the nature and work of the HS in the soul of the human being. It is no wonder that you have so much trouble understanding the Marian doctrines!

I would but my name is pretty much mud around here and i would be dismissed as a quack....

We reap what we sow.

I’m going to ask my catholic friends in the real world about this.

Ok, but it is my experience that the average Catholic in the pew does not understand the nature and extent of baptism any better than you. :crying:

 

[Good_Fella]

This is an absolute shock to me. I wonder if other catholics believe this. How about starting a thread on this (Can a believer in Christ ever stop sinning and has someone ever achieved this)? I would but my name is pretty much mud around here and i would be dismissed as a quack… View attachment 4189

I’m going to ask my catholic friends in the real world about this.

“Go, and sin no more.”

“Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

“My grace is enough for you.”

 

[justasking4]

“Go, and sin no more.”

“Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

“My grace is enough for you.”

If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
(1 Jn 1:10).

 

[justasking4]

A former member of my parish went to Lourdes with a malignant brain tumour the size of a ping-pong ball. The miraculous water from the spring at Masiabelle cured him overnight. There are thousands of such miraculous cures since the Marian apparitions occurred. Bernadette’s body lies in state practically incorrupted. Scientists who have examined her corpse admit their is no known natural explanation and that there can ever be one.

http.//www.catholicpilgrims.com/lourdes/lourdes_photo_aa.htm

What would you say if the same kind of thing happened in a non christian religion? Would that mean its true?