Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

[Reformed]

I’m sorry, but you are. You’re giving me, and other participants of this thread, your interpretation of what Scripture says or means.

I’m so glad you think so. It came from this excellent article.

I have been saved by baptism and by Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross, and by my belief in Christ as my Savior. However, as Christ also said, I must keep his commandments to be saved, so I am doing my best to persevere “with fear and trembling” in that regard.

I highly recommend you read The Salvation Controversy by Jimmy Akin. He goes into an incredibly in-depth discussion of the topic, including the verses you mention, and is a much better presentation on the topic of salvation than we could possibly have on an Internet forum.

If you would like to borrow my copy, I’d be happy to lend it to you – however, I would want it back, as it’s autographed by Jimmy himself.

Okay, so we do believe in mutually exclusive gospels. I read many books by Catholic Answers, read their tracts, and heard their tapes. Remember, we already had a thread called “what has changed in 500 years?”. The conclusion by all Catholics is that Roman Catholic doctrine does not change. The issues that caused the Protestant Reformation are the same issues today. I do not look to John Calvin, Martin Luther or other great reformers for truth. I don’t want you to do the same error by looking to ex-protestant pastors turned lay Roman Catholic apologetics for answers. The truth of God’s gospel does not change. The Holy Bible is the authorative Word of God.

 

[Reformed]

But you believe saving faith always produces perseverance to the end.
So why are not all people saved?

I’m a Calvinist remember.

 

[Reformed]

So Reformed you have all the answers that discredits 2000 years of great Christians who lived and died for the Christian faith that you freely avail yourself to, by accepting and believing your own interpretation of history and scriptures. Tell me, you accept the scriptures as given to you by the Roman Catholic church Magesterium; why would you refuse to listen to Jesus who built this Magesterium? But then again Reformed has his own reformed Christianity from 2000 years of Christian belief.

You have not addressed the question, how are infants saved, mentally ill, and the deaf and mute souls, in a non catholic bible believing Christian church?

The Bible does not give us clear answers to these questions. Ultimately, all sinners are saved by the person and work of Christ on their behalf. I personally believe God applies the work of Christ on behalf of elect infants who die in infancy. I believe elect sinners who are physically handicapped are washed by the blood of Christ before they die. Do you mind posting the official Roman Catholic position to your questions?

 

[wanner47]

Okay, so we do believe in mutually exclusive gospels. I read many books by Catholic Answers, read their tracts, and heard their tapes.

Have you read the book I recommended? (By the way, Jimmy Akin is not an ex-protestant pastor. Perhaps you should read more about him before making false claims about his background.)

Remember, we already had a thread called “what has changed in 500 years?”. The conclusion by all Catholics is that Roman Catholic doctrine does not change. The issues that caused the Protestant Reformation are the same issues today. I do not look to John Calvin, Martin Luther or other great reformers for truth. I don’t want you to do the same error by looking to ex-protestant pastors turned lay Roman Catholic apologetics for answers. The truth of God’s gospel does not change. The Holy Bible is the authorative Word of God.

Um… I’m looking to the Church that Christ Himself established for Truth. You’re proposing that I should look to a fallible human being, yourself, to find Truth. I’ll stick with the Church, thanks.

ETA: It’s also pretty humorous that you claim to have read Catholic Answers tracts, yet you did not recognize my initial post as being a direct quote from one of their most basic tracts about salvation. I don’t think you’re telling the truth about having read Catholic Answers information.

I’m still waiting to hear why I should trust your interpretation of Scripture over that of the Church’s. You are giving your interpretation of Scripture and telling me that I should believe it instead of the Church’s, and I still don’t see why I should.

 

[Thing]

I’m a Calvinist remember.

What does that mean? Is that an answer?

 

[Reformed]

Have you read the book I recommended? (By the way, Jimmy Akin is not an ex-protestant pastor. Perhaps you should read more about him before making false claims about his background.)

Um… I’m looking to the Church that Christ Himself established for Truth. You’re proposing that I should look to a fallible human being, yourself, to find Truth. I’ll stick with the Church, thanks.

ETA: It’s also pretty humorous that you claim to have read Catholic Answers tracts, yet you did not recognize my initial post as being a direct quote from one of their most basic tracts about salvation. I don’t think you’re telling the truth about having read Catholic Answers information.

I’m still waiting to hear why I should trust your interpretation of Scripture over that of the Church’s. You are giving your interpretation of Scripture and telling me that I should believe it instead of the Church’s, and I still don’t see why I should.

It’s been awhile since I read the Catholic Answers material given to me. Maybe it was 10 years ago? I used to participate in a door to door ministry at Calvary Chapel in Southern CA. My neighbors who were both Irish Catholic came to me and asked what I believed and why. They left the Catholic Church and are solid bible Christians. When they considered leaving their Catholic Parish, the lay apologists from their church started given me and them Catholic tracts, tapes, and books. In addition, I got more Catholic Answers stuff by going door to door. I remember getting tapes and books by Scott Hahn, Patrick Mardrid, and tons of Catholic Tracts. Heck, I started to receive duplicate copies of the same stuff. You have to understand that Catholic Answers was located in San Diego at the time… being very close to my previous home. I believe Catholic Answers is now in Anahiem CA. Along with the door to door ministry team, I was invited to RICA classes, Catholic men’s fellowships, and an actual debate at the Catholic Church with a lay Catholic Apologist from Catholic Answers. I attended everything that I was invited to. I read just about everything given to me too. I really don’t have much of a need to re-read additional Roman Catholic apologetics information at this stage in my life. I hope this background helps. Modern day Amercian Roman Catholicism may seem to be very close to Evangelical thought. But at the end of the day, the doctrine of justification will always seperate us on this side of glory. The gospel of God’s grace is based on justification by faith alone. We are saved by grace alone through the instrument of faith alone, on the sole basis and grounds of the person and work of Christ alone; therefore all the glory goes to God alone for saving sinners like me and you.

 

[Thing]

Let your yes be yes, and your no be no, anything else is from the devil.

 

[Reformed]

But you believe saving faith always produces perseverance to the end.
So why are not all people saved?

Not all who profess Christ receives saving grace (sovereign grace). Actually, I think the Roman Catholic Church teaches something similar in regards to persevering grace given to the elect only.

That falls under the mystery of predestination. Catholics affirm both divine providence and the freedom of the will and we also accept the unequal distribution of grace as a dogma of faith. Otherwise, there would be no one in Hell. As I’ve stated many times in the past, predestination in Catholicism is not mere election of those whom God foresaw would believe. That’s Arminianism. And yet we believe that God involves free will in the fulfillment in time of His plan of salvation. You believe that God is sovereign and yet also believe that Adam had free will. Apparently, there is no contradiction there.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Thing]

Not all who profess Christ receives saving grace (sovereign grace).

Why not?

 

[Reformed]

Why not?

We are going way beyond the thread topic. I suggest you continue this line of thought on the Free Will thread.

 

[wanner47]

It’s been awhile since I read the Catholic Answers material given to me.

Perhaps you should read it again. There have been many articles and books written in the last 10 years. I also recommend listening to Catholic Answers Live.

Maybe it was 10 years ago? I used to participate in a door to door ministry at Calvary Chapel in Southern CA. My neighbors who were both Irish Catholic came to me and asked what I believed and why. They left the Catholic Church and are solid bible Christians. When they considered leaving their Catholic Parish, the lay apologists from their church started given me and them Catholic tracts, tapes, and books. In addition, I got more Catholic Answers stuff by going door to door. I remember getting tapes and books by Scott Hahn, Patrick Mardrid, and tons of Catholic Tracts. Heck, I started to receive duplicate copies of the same stuff. You have to understand that Catholic Answers was located in San Diego at the time… being very close to my previous home. I believe Catholic Answers is now in Anahiem CA.

How sad that they weren’t strong in their faith. If they’d taken time to investigate what and why the Church teaches, they never would have left.

Catholic Answers is still located in San Diego, CA, by the way.

The gospel of God’s grace is based on justification by faith alone.

Where does this appear in Scripture? To my knowledge, the only place in the Bible where the phrase “faith alone” appears is in James 2:24: “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

We are saved by grace alone through the instrument of faith alone, on the sole basis and grounds of the person and work of Christ alone; therefore all the glory goes to God alone for saving sinners like me and you.

I agree that we are saved by grace alone! That is what the Catholic Church teaches.

Let me ask you a few questions:

• If we are saved by faith alone, then do we need to love in order to be saved?
• If you have faith, but have not works, can your faith save you?
• Christ redeemed all men with his death on the cross. In other words, he paid the price for all men’s sins. Yet not all men are saved. What is the difference between those who are merely redeemed and those who are redeemed and saved?
• Do we have to forgive others in order to have our sins forgiven by God?

Also, Reformed, are you ever going to stop avoiding my question as to why I should trust your individual interpretation of Scripture as opposed to the Church’s?

 

[Thing]

We are going way beyond the thread topic. I suggest you continue this line of thought on the Free Will thread.

You want to know what must you do to be saved. Thats the thread title.

reformed:

Not all who profess Christ receives saving grace (sovereign grace).

I want to know why not all who profess Christ are saved.

After all, all we need to do is say we believe in Christ and we are saved? Yes?

 

[Reformed]

Perhaps you should read it again. There have been many articles and books written in the last 10 years. I also recommend listening to Catholic Answers Live.

How sad that they weren’t strong in their faith. If they’d taken time to investigate what and why the Church teaches, they never would have left.

Catholic Answers is still located in San Diego, CA, by the way.

Where does this appear in Scripture? To my knowledge, the only place in the Bible where the phrase “faith alone” appears is in James 2:24: “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

I agree that we are saved by grace alone! That is what the Catholic Church teaches.

Let me ask you a few questions:

• If we are saved by faith alone, then do we need to love in order to be saved?
• If you have faith, but have not works, can your faith save you?
• Christ redeemed all men with his death on the cross. In other words, he paid the price for all men’s sins. Yet not all men are saved. What is the difference between those who are merely redeemed and those who are redeemed and saved?
• Do we have to forgive others in order to have our sins forgiven by God?

Also, Reformed, are you ever going to stop avoiding my question as to why I should trust your individual interpretation of Scripture as opposed to the Church’s?

I’m not telling you to trust in my interpertation. You will find my understanding to be uniformed on the essential of the Reformatiion. Receiving spiritual truth is the work of God the Holy Spirit and never me. We all know in part. Thanks for all of the questions, but we are going way beyond the thread topic. I want to stay within the OP. If you start a new post, I will try to participate and answer the relevant questions to that post. I thank you for your suggestion to read additional apolgetics material, but I’m not into reading Protestant or Roman Catholic apologetics material nowdays. I prefer reading material about the person and work of Jesus Christ on behalf of sinners. I love books about the cross of Christ, the atonement, the gospel, etc.

BTW… I thought Catholic Answers moved to Anahiem CA?

 

[Reformed]

You want to know what must you do to be saved. Thats the thread title.

I want to know why not all who profess Christ are saved.

After all, all we need to do is say we believe in Christ and we are saved? Yes?

There is a chain of salvation that begins in the mind of God before the foundation of the world. God is always the cause of rescusing (saving) some sinners to the praise of His glory.

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, [7] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

God’s Everlasting Love

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be [8] against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. [9] 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written,

“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. - rom 8

 

[Thing]

There is a chain of salvation that begins in the mind of God before the foundation of the world. God is always the cause of rescusing (saving) some sinners to the praise of His glory.

But I wanted to know why not all who profess Christ are saved?

After all;
39 In him every one that believeth, is justified.

So what must you do to be saved?

 

[Reformed]

But I wanted to know why not all who profess Christ are saved?

After all;
39 In him every one that believeth, is justified.

So what must you do to be saved?

There are two different types of faith with two different destinies. There is saving faith (post 2) and dead faith (James 2). One faith is a gift of God and the other faith is self-generated in the flesh.

 

[wanner47]

I’m not telling you to trust in my interpertation. You will find my understanding to be uniformed on the essential of the Reformatiion.

So you put your faith in the Reformation instead of in Christ?

Why should I trust their interpretations?

Receiving spiritual truth is the work of God the Holy Spirit and never me. We all know in part. Thanks for all of the questions, but we are going way beyond the thread topic. I want to stay within the OP.

This is within the scope of the OP. You are telling me how I should be saved. What I want to know is, why should I believe you or those whom you follow, instead of Christ’s church?

If you start a new post, I will try to participate and answer the relevant questions to that post. I thank you for your suggestion to read additional apolgetics material, but I’m not into reading Protestant or Roman Catholic apologetics material nowdays. I prefer reading material about the person and work of Jesus Christ on behalf of sinners. I love books about the cross of Christ, the atonement, the gospel, etc.

The Salvation Controversy is all about salvation! (Hence the catchy title.)

BTW… I thought Catholic Answers moved to Anahiem CA?

No, they did not. They have always been in San Diego. Source.

 

[Thing]

There are two different types of faith with two different destinies. There is saving faith (post 2) and dead faith (James 2). One faith is a gift of God and the other faith is self-generated in the flesh.

But the Apostle said EVERY ONE who believes in Him is saved?

 

[Reformed]

But the Apostle said EVERY ONE who believes in Him is saved?

Sure, that is why I am encouraging EVERY ONE to read the 13 letters of Paul in context. Then read the writings of the Apostle John. Then read Peter and James.

 

[sandusky]

But the Apostle said EVERY ONE who believes in Him is saved?

Where?