Sister going to do the "Homily" in my Parish...

[Walking_Home]

I agree we should always obey… I will submit and never make a spectacle of myself as I serve Christ, not my own ego. I might fail sometimes but I really try.

Yet, is it right to obey when something wrong is being presented? Does this make me an accessory to the abuse?

Do I participate in misleading the faithful? Is it obedient to not point out disobedience? To ignore unfaithfulness?

I am torn, and still thinking of what I should do.

God Bless
Scylla

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I agree with Brendan. Gather all the evidence possible. A video would serve the purpose and send a copy to your bishop and the CDW.

 

[Joan_M]

But, is a nun/sister actually a “lay” person? They, after all, have received the Sacrement of Holy Orders, no?

Where on earth did you get that idea? Holy Orders is only for men - it ordains men as deacons, priests or bishops, There is no Sacrament of Holy Orders for women!

I don’t think it falls to the OP to be responsible for whether or not the speaker is in error or not. That is the responsibility of the Clergy involved.

We, the laity, should not be abused by our clergy by them committing liturgical abuses. It is fine for a lay person to speak (for a short time) just before the final blessings (when announcements are usually made). Not instead of the homily.

Why can’t our clergy submit themselves to the laws of the church??? And, why must we, the laity, be abused when we try to correct their abuses??? This need to stop!

 

[LRThunder]

But, is a nun/sister actually a “lay” person? They, after all, have received the Sacrement of Holy Orders, no?

I don’t think it falls to the OP to be responsible for whether or not the speaker is in error or not. That is the responsibility of the Clergy involved.

Nuns/sisters do not receive the Sacrament of Holy Orders. They are religious, that is true, but they’re not clergy. There are also religious brothers who aren’t clergy.

Only men can receive the Sacrament of Holy Orders.

 

[LRThunder]

Follow one of the most treasured and long-standing traditions of Catholicism…obey…submit yourself to the authority of the Church.

And that goes for the religious and clergy as well as the laity.

 

[ethelzguy]

We, the laity, should not be abused by our clergy by them committing liturgical abuses. It is fine for a lay person to speak (for a short time) just before the final blessings (when announcements are usually made). Not instead of the homily.

Why can’t our clergy submit themselves to the laws of the church??? And, why must we, the laity, be abused when we try to correct their abuses??? This need to stop!

I already stated that I was wrong about the Holy Orders for nuns.

To claim that you are “being abused” simply by being in the presence of something you consider to be abuse is petty, childish, and frankly makes me wanna barf.

The fact remains, we simply don’t know all the circumstances. Will the priest give a brief homily then turn the congregation to the nun to speak? Was special permission granted by the Bishop? We don’t know…and until we know for certain, running around screaming “abuse, abuse” is a mockery of Christ.

 

[ethelzguy]

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I agree with Brendan. Gather all the evidence possible. A video would serve the purpose and send a copy to your bishop and the CDW.

Perhaps the more appropriate act would be to attend Mass, repentent of one’s own sins, grateful for the opportunity to receive the Body and Blood of Christ…and leave the judging to a higher authority…

 

[wanner47]

Perhaps the more appropriate act would be to attend Mass, repentent of one’s own sins, grateful for the opportunity to receive the Body and Blood of Christ…and leave the judging to a higher authority…

So you’re saying that liturgical abuses should NEVER be corrected?

 

[Tietjen]

I am not sure if you think that this is a power thing on my part. I am just an MC I just serve the Mass and hope to encourage more young men to serve and eventually I might be a rung on the ladder to a vocation. I really don’t do much other than try and help so that the Mass is done reverently and in accord with the Church.

I would certainly hope that no one here felt that you were attempting to run a “power play” around your Priest. I felt that you had a valid question and were simply trying to find clarification and a solution.

So I am not trying to show the Priest who is “Boss” or the Bishop. (the Priest is directed to allow this by the sister in charge of the parish, our Priests come from other parishes and have very little say in the Mass)

This part concerns me as well. Never have I heard that a Priest was being directed by a nun as to how to say Mass. That is simply a non-issue and if the nun is attempting to do so, she should be reprimanded if not by the Priest then by the Bishop. Her responsibilities, though important, are not to direct Mass.

It has occured to me that there can actually be a circumstance where a lay person might assist in the Homily. Here is an example…

The Priest has a cold, cannot speak and has written his Homily down. Hands it to the layperson who explains that there is permission given to express the words of the Priest. They announce this so there is no confusion of the faithful and the Homily is presented. There is a situation that the Bishop can approve of and legitimately allow a layperson to present the Homily, as it would be impossible to do so otherwise.
(This I can accept as it seems certainly reasonable, unless I am told I am wrong, but it seems reasonable to me)

No, as far as I am aware the laity is never allowed to give the homily. In fact, I BELIEVE (and I could be wrong) that if no Deacon, Priest, or Bishop is available to give the homily, it may be omitted. However, this is not the norm and should be very rare, if ever.

BTW, If we are shown we are wrong we should immediately change our position and submit to the truth.
I am always willing to do that, I might not like it, but as a Catholic I am required or I reject Christ who is the Truth.
I submit to the Church.

Absolutely. The hard part is that sometimes people are ignorant as to what the Church actually says concerning an issue and if a religious (Ordained) is committing an abuse, or is instructing incorrect doctrine, the laity may not even realize it. That is way it is important that EVERYONE be familiar with the CCC and knows how to reference the GIRM and Canon Law. Not to challenge the Priest, but to help ensure that Christ’s Church stays the course.

Thank you for all the advice, the Mass is today, Sunday.
I will try and record it or see if I can take pictures, I am going to a couple Masses today as I serve and my daughter sings.
I am pretty sure I can’t crash tackle sister, that wouldn’t be too becoming of me, or of the proper conduct of an MC.

I wouldn’t advise taking pictures at the Mass. Somehow that doesn’t seem very “correct.” If the homily is omitted, your word among an entire parish of witnesses should be good enough. To take pictures suggests that the Priest might actually lie about the situation and that you feel that you’ll need evidence to use against the Priest. I seriously doubt that this will be the case.

What happens often is abuse happens, and those who are just obediently going to Mass are misled because no-one tells them it is wrong. So they assume it must be permitted because it is permitted. It changes their belief of what is allowed and what isn’t and their actual faith.

Yes, and now at some parishes, you wouldn’t even recognize the Mass. I’ve seen the dancing down the isles, I’ve even seen a video of clowns being used at Mass!

Since the liturgy also communicates our faith, I risk my salvation as a father, since I am the primary educator the the faith to my kids. This, if I do not take the responsibility to make sure my kids are going to a faithful Mass.

I think that your children are lucky to have you as a father. You sound like a very conscientious and caring father who is willing to ensure that his children and protected. God bless you.

 

[ethelzguy]

So you’re saying that liturgical abuses should NEVER be corrected?

I did not say that, however there are clearly those who can’t resist the temptation to agonize over every little thing and make mountains out of mole hills.

From the things I read here, I would almost have to guess that many folks on the TC forum must attend TWO Masses every Sunday, one to search for and document alleged abuses, and another to actually devote themselves to the Mass/Eucharist itself.

I truly feel sorry for some folks here. The appear unable to attend Mass anywhere, anytime, without “being on the lookout” for alleged abuses.

I attend Mass, fully aware that I am unworthy of Christ’s gift to me. Therefore, I don’t waste my Mass time judging my clergy. I have more important things on my mind.

 

[belgianwaffles9]

I know its after the fact now, but you guys all seemed to ignore one option.

Some of you gave great advice on how to record/report the abuse, which was good.

However, the OP found himself in a unique position of being able to possibly stop the abuse to begin with.

That was when the usual crowd shuffled in with their “just go along with everything thats going wrong” because they somehow don’t understand that being obedient to the Church means following its laws even when the heirarchy doesnt, not allowing an incorrect priest of bishop to run wild with the mass and rub the rubrics into the dirt just because he feels like it.

I think what the OP should have done was tell the priest in a private conversation a week or two in advance that he could not bring himself to serve in a mass which would contain elements that he understoof to be liturgical abuses.

That would give the priest and the OP time to talk about it and possibly come to some understanding, or if no undertsanding could be reached, time for the priest to find another server for that mass.

Either way, the OP should have then recorded and documented the abuses as already described, and report them to the bishop, and then depending on the bishop’s reply, to the appropriate vatican Congregation. Not only is that his right, it his holy obligation, due to his obedience to the Church.

 

[wanner47]

I did not say that, however there are clearly those who can’t resist the temptation to agonize over every little thing and make mountains out of mole hills.

I wouldn’t call this a “mole hill.” It’s a pretty clear and direct violation of the GIRM.

Scylla also expressed concern that he would permitting scandal if he didn’t speak up, which is grave matter indeed.

From the things I read here, I would almost have to guess that many folks on the TC forum must attend TWO Masses every Sunday, one to search for and document alleged abuses, and another to actually devote themselves to the Mass/Eucharist itself.

That’s not a very charitable thing to say.

I truly feel sorry for some folks here. The appear unable to attend Mass anywhere, anytime, without “being on the lookout” for alleged abuses.

I think that’s unfair. Sometimes abuses are so egregious that the can interfere with one’s participation in the Mass. I would find it hard to concentrate if, for example, clowns were dancing up and down the aisle at Mass, wouldn’t you?

I attend Mass, fully aware that I am unworthy of Christ’s gift to me. Therefore, I don’t waste my Mass time judging my clergy. I have more important things on my mind.

How is it “judging” to politely and respectfully point out that the norms established by the Church are being violated?

Futhermore, Scylla is not judging the state of the priest’s soul or the state of the sister’s soul. He is stating FACTS regarding a violation of the GIRM, which are the norms established BY THE CHURCH for liturgy. That is not “judging.”

What do you propose that people do when they witness egregious liturgical violations?

 

[Claire_from_DE]

In my diocese, a sister speaks at mass once a year about the collection to support the retired religious of the diocese. She does this after the gospel. In my parish, the pastor makes some remarks about the readings, in effect a very abbreviated homily, and introduces the sister who gives her talk which she also relates to the readings.

This is done with the bishop’s approval. Undoubtedly, if her talk was given before the last blessing, many people would exit at that time. Also, the collection is taken up at the offertory, so the talk is given before then.

I accept that the bishop has the authority to permit this infrequent and mild abuse. I don’t agree with it but I don’t complain. I respect our bishop personally and as bishop.

My suggestion is to choose your battles and pick the most important ones and those you have a chance of winning. Otherwise you will get a reputation as a crackpot and none of your concerns will be taken seriously.

So IMHO you should attend mass (of course) and carry out your assignment. Take the priest as your model. He will do his part of the mass and obey the bishop. Perhaps you could explain your concern to him and he would do as my pastor does and give a short homily before the sister speaks.

 

[ethelzguy]

In my diocese, a sister speaks at mass once a year about the collection to support the retired religious of the diocese. She does this after the gospel. In my parish, the pastor makes some remarks about the readings, in effect a very abbreviated homily, and introduces the sister who gives her talk which she also relates to the readings.

This is done with the bishop’s approval. Undoubtedly, if her talk was given before the last blessing, many people would exit at that time. Also, the collection is taken up at the offertory, so the talk is given before then.

I accept that the bishop has the authority to permit this infrequent and mild abuse. I don’t agree with it but I don’t complain. I respect our bishop personally and as bishop.

My suggestion is to choose your battles and pick the most important ones and those you have a chance of winning. Otherwise you will get a reputation as a crackpot and none of your concerns will be taken seriously.

Someone who “gets it”

 

[ethelzguy]

I wouldn’t call this a “mole hill.” It’s a pretty clear and direct violation of the GIRM.

Scylla also expressed concern that he would permitting scandal if he didn’t speak up, which is grave matter indeed.

That’s not a very charitable thing to say.

I think that’s unfair. Sometimes abuses are so egregious that the can interfere with one’s participation in the Mass. I would find it hard to concentrate if, for example, clowns were dancing up and down the aisle at Mass, wouldn’t you?

How is it “judging” to politely and respectfully point out that the norms established by the Church are being violated?

Futhermore, Scylla is not judging the state of the priest’s soul or the state of the sister’s soul. He is stating FACTS regarding a violation of the GIRM, which are the norms established BY THE CHURCH for liturgy. That is not “judging.”

What do you propose that people do when they witness egregious liturgical violations?

I stand by my comments. I will continue to pray for those who feel that they must bizzy themselves with critique of our clergy. I have truly come to pity them.

 

[scylla]

I will go and serve the Mass as I am scheduled to do so and I have not given a week or so notice in advance to find a replacement.
It seems I have no choice, I am the only one who can serve and I do it each week. I have to do it this week also.

Unfortunately this really can’t be discussed with the Priest beforehand and he has no real say as he is not in charge of the Parish, the sister is. We have no Priest we just have a “parish coordinator”. The Priests are scheduled from other parishes.

I do not go to the Mass seeking abuse to complain about, and I am part of this parish as it is about a mile away from my house. I attend the nearest parish to my residence and try to be faithful to it. I am not just nitpicking, I have a responsibility as the father to my kids and as a server to do what is right and uphold what is right.

God is the judge, and I do not judge the clergy. We do not know the state of people’s souls and of course never are to judge that. Yet we always are commanded to judge actions, and choose between right and wrong. We cannot turn a blind eye to someone misleading the faithful, for me, especially my children.

I am stuck between having to serve and having my children and other children at Mass seeing an abuse and being misled.
Luke 17:2
This comes to mind…

Thank you for your responses,
Scylla

 

[wanner47]

I stand by my comments. I will continue to pray for those who feel that they must bizzy themselves with critique of our clergy. I have truly come to pity them.

Is there a reason you can’t answer my questions?

1. Why shouldn’t liturgical abuses be reported?
2. If they are, what is the correct way to do so, in your opinion?

(btw, just so you know, the correct spelling is “busy”)

 

[ethelzguy]

I have a responsibility as the father to my kids and as a server to do what is right and uphold what is right.

We cannot turn a blind eye to someone misleading the faithful, for me, especially my children.

I am stuck between having to serve and having my children and other children at Mass seeing an abuse and being misled.

Thank you for your responses,
Scylla

Then perhaps it is an opportunity to discuss with your children what is right, and what may be wrong, and how to identify such and how to deal with it in a manner that might be productive?

You’ll get to teach your faith over Sunday dinner

 

[ethelzguy]

Is there a reason you can’t answer my questions?

1. Why shouldn’t liturgical abuses be reported?
2. If they are, what is the correct way to do so, in your opinion?

I have answered them. Serious abuses should be addressed, privately with the one committing the alleged abuse.

Making a spectacle of yourself by refusing a previously schelduled assignment, or dragging a camcorder into Mass will do nothing to change the alleged abuse.

Ask yourself, would God ask you to take a camcorder to Mass to document something you see as an abuse? Or, would he ask you to come before him in humility, asking forgiveness for your own sins?

 

[Timothysis]

Perhaps the more appropriate act would be to attend Mass, repentent of one’s own sins, grateful for the opportunity to receive the Body and Blood of Christ…and leave the judging to a higher authority…

ethelzguy, I’ll be danged if I know where you get these new fangled ideas!!!

 

[scylla]

Making a spectacle of yourself by refusing a previously schelduled assignment, or dragging a camcorder into Mass will do nothing to change the alleged abuse.

Ask yourself, would God ask you to take a camcorder to Mass to document something you see as an abuse? Or, would he ask you to come before him in humility, asking forgiveness for your own sins?

Yes, I am quite sinful myself, yet that doesn’t mean that I cannot try and do what is right.

You have given me a good idea, and what I can do is bring my rosary with me. I could get a few decades in during the speech and focus on Christ, as they insult Christ in His Priesthood. I could offer reparation for the abuse.

This would cheer me up and focus my mind on God instead of the abuse at hand.

Thank you
Scylla