Skeptic Michael Shermer: Skepticism shaken to its core

[PRmerger]

Zeitoun being a good example. But as someone said: ‘Some arguments are ridiculous on their own merit’ and don’t need to be investigated. Is that why the Vatican didn’t investigate this? It’s ridiculous?

I kinda think so.

 

[PRmerger]

There is nothing wrong with making hasty pronouncements, we are all guilty of them (myself especially!)

Indeed.

but when one points out the error, it should acknowledged and accepted.

Does this count when folks have been banned, it’s been pointed out, and the person responds with, “I have no idea what you’re talking about”?

Originally posted by Pallas Athene, denying that he is a banned poster: I don’t know what you are talking about. But I cannot believe that I am “unique” in my approach. Not that it matters. Thank you for your contribution, but from now on I will not respond to your posts.

Best of luck.

 

[tonyrey]

So Hindu beliefs are correct.

Of course many of them are correct. All religions share the same fundamental truths and values:

*The Perennial Philosophy *- Aldous Huxley

 

[Pallas_Athene]

This in answer to the statement re the efficacy of prayer: There is no statistically significant difference between the test group and the control group.

You are quite correct. There was a difference. Only in that the people being prayed for seem to have fared worse than those who weren’t.

There was a huge procedural error in those studies… they were NOT double blind. To conduct such studies it is imperative that the patients are not aware if they receive the real medication or the placebo. Otherwise the results are hopelessly skewed.

Now to measure the efficacy of prayers is very difficult. It is next to impossible to create a control group, since there are good-willing people who keep praying indiscriminately for everyone.

So the method must be tailored to the problem. It is not the efficacy of the generic “prayer” that needs to be evaluated, but the efficacy of the “Catholic prayer” versus some other kind of prayer (say: Lutheran). If the prayers uttered by the followers of the “true religion” would show a statistically significantly better result that would go a long way of separating the “true religion” from the “heretics”. I cannot emphasize enough the two requirements: “double blind” and “statistically significant” results.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . So Hindu beliefs are correct. . . . .

The Mahabharata is an epic Hinhu poem about ten times the length of the combined Illiad and Odyssey. The Svargarohana parva is the final chapter.

It tells of the protagonist’s journey to heaven.
He is a very holy man, who was engaged, with his family in a prologued war.
He attempts along with his sibs and wife to scale the mountain to heaven.
He alone survives.

There will obviously be a number of interpretations. In short, from my Christian perspective, what follows:
He is taken to hell where he sees all his friends and family suffering, and then to heaven,
to be greeted by his enemies, there because they were killed on holy ground (they repented).
He is overwhelmed, questioning the fairness of the gods, and the value of leading a virtuous life.
Better to be in hell with those whom he loved and who loved him, to be with the virtuous and just.
Thus proving himself to be an honourable man, all is revealed to him.
He sees their suffering is temporary (purgatory)
and that ultimately, we are all brothers and sisters to be loved,
he attains the highest heaven, beyond any illusion, the fullness of Reality before him.

Just a short quote:

For the sake neither of pleasure, nor of fear, nor of cupidity should any one cast off Righteousness.
Indeed, for the sake of even life one should not cast off Righteousness;
Righteousness is eternal. Pleasure and Pain are not eternal;
Jiva is eternal. A body is not so.

I think they got it right.

 

[SonOfMan]

It makes no sense because you do not understand that science has no explanation for what are the most meaningful and important human realities.

Where did you dream up a sun god? Do you think Catholics believe the sun is a god?

“Science of the gaps” is a phrase that sort of makes fun of people who think that because religion speaks of ultimate realities, it is trying to explain how things found in nature behave and interact. It turns around the phrase “God of the gaps” to point out the silliness of utilizing pseudoscientific explanations for such aspects of human nature such as existence itself, reason, beauty, goodness, meaning, and everything else in which the person is engaged from the moment he/she wakes up until they go to bed, and during their sleep.

I dont see how that corresponds at all to humans figuring out what the sun actually is. The science here isnt trying to fill any gaps, its simply giving the results. As a result of that, humans know what the sun actually is and we dont worship it as a god anymore; we know that it isnt a god and that it never was a god.

Is it any coincidence that the more we know, the less the supernatural is used as an explanation? I dont think that it is a coincidence.

 

[Aloysium]

I dont see how that corresponds at all to humans figuring out what the sun actually is. The science here isnt trying to fill any gaps, its simply giving the results. . . . Is it any coincidence that the more we know, the less the supernatural is used as an explanation? I dont think that it is a coincidence.

While this may be a personal truth, it is not what science or religion are about.

Religion seeks to reforge the damaged relationship between mankind and God.

Science is involved in figuring out how things work. It is basically an operating manual for matter.
It will not tell you why the matter is there or what to do with it. It does not tell you what it actually is.

You don’t know what the sun is in itself. You can think about it in terms of photons, heat, Hydrogen, Helium, gravity etc. You tell me what it is like being the sun, or how one going supernova is “felt” in space.

The test for science’s capacity to inform us of the transcendent, lies in the degree to which it brings us closer to God.
It surely does in its revelation of the mysteries of creation, the magnitude, the beauty, the sheer awesomeness of it all - all manifestations of He who is its Creator.
It cannot through its empirical methodology, at least imho, demonstrate the world of the spirit.

 

[tonyrey]

There was a huge procedural error in those studies… they were NOT double blind. To conduct such studies it is imperative that the patients are not aware if they receive the real medication or the placebo. Otherwise the results are hopelessly skewed.

Now to measure the efficacy of prayers is very difficult. It is next to impossible to create a control group, since there are good-willing people who keep praying indiscriminately for everyone.

So the method must be tailored to the problem. It is not the efficacy of the generic “prayer” that needs to be evaluated, but the efficacy of the “Catholic prayer” versus some other kind of prayer (say: Lutheran). If the prayers uttered by the followers of the “true religion” would show a statistically significantly better result that would go a long way of separating the “true religion” from the “heretics”. I cannot emphasize enough the two requirements: “double blind” and “statistically significant” results.

BRITISH MEDICAL JOURNAL:

Effects of remote, retroactive intercessory prayer on outcomes in patients with bloodstream infection: randomised controlled trial

     BMJ     2001;     323      doi: [dx.doi.org/10.1136/bmj.323.7327.1450](http://dx.doi.org/10.1136/bmj.323.7327.1450)     (Published 22 December 2001)

Conclusions: Remote, retroactive intercessory prayer said for a group is associated with a shorter stay in hospital and shorter duration of fever in patients with a bloodstream infection and should be considered for use in clinical practice.

What is already known on this topic Two randomised controlled trials of remote intercessory prayer (praying for persons unknown) showed a beneficial effect in patients in an intensive coronary care unit
A recent systematic review found that 57% of the randomised, placebo controlled trials of distant healing showed a positive treatment effect

What this study adds Remote intercessory prayer said for a group of patients is associated with a shorter hospital stay and shorter duration of fever in patients with a bloodstream infection, even when the intervention is performed 4–10 years after the infection.

bmj.com/content/323/7327/1450.full

 

[ThinkingSapien]

**Effects of remote, retroactive **

What is a “retroactive” prayer?

 

[Aloysium]

What is a “retroactive” prayer?

You can’t click on a link? Or, read the post, actually. Everyone wants to be spoonfed information these days.,

BMJ/Tony’s quote:

What this study adds Remote intercessory prayer said for a group of patients is associated with a shorter hospital stay and shorter duration of fever in patients with a bloodstream infection, even when the intervention is performed 4–10 years after the infection

Pretty amazing, no? Eternal God - remember? Who knows? Raises more questions than it answers - a great experiment in other words.

 

[SonOfMan]

It cannot through its empirical methodology, at least imho, demonstrate the world of the spirit.

No one said that it did.

Fact is, people used to worship the sun because they didnt know about it. Once they knew about it, they realized it wasnt a god and never was. Science wasnt trying to explain spiritual truths or debunk a god here, it merely states its results and thinking humans can connect the dots as to what these findings actually mean.

If I told you to stop eating your toast because it was the Breadgod you were eating, you’d shake your head knowing that this piece of toast was made at the bakery and that it was, in fact, not a god. In you knowing that bakeries exist and thats where this bread came from, youre not trying to debunk my Breadgod nor are you explaining spiritual truths here, you just know the facts about where bread comes from and it has nothing to do with spirituality.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

You can’t click on a link? Or, read the post, actually. Everyone wants to be spoonfed information these days.,

I did, but having never seen the phrase “retroactive prayer” I wasn’t 100% confident that the section you quoted was to what it referred. Usually when I hear someone talking about types of prayer they are referring to thanks, intercession, for grace, so on. The term itself seems to be specific to this publication and other references in which I find it are references back to this same publication. So it doesn’t seem to be a common phrase.

I was looking for confirmation, not spoon feeding.

 

[Aloysium]

No one said that it did.

Fact is, people used to worship the sun because they didnt know about it. Once they knew about it, they realized it wasnt a god and never was. Science wasnt trying to explain spiritual truths or debunk a god here, it merely states its results and thinking humans can connect the dots as to what these findings actually mean.

They worshipped the sun because they were aware, living closer to and more in tune with nature, that it fed all life in this world and that it could be the worst of enemies.

There is a lot said in the Bible about worshipping idols, and what you relate does fit in with the temptations that God’s people faced. As powerful as it is, it is our Creator who brings the sun into existence. The new false god, of course, is materialism.

Reason not only informs us of how the world works, but also of that which transcends it.

 

[Aloysium]

I did, but having never seen the phrase “retroactive prayer” I wasn’t 100% confident that the section you quoted was to what it referred. Usually when I hear someone talking about types of prayer they are referring to thanks, intercession, for grace, so on. The term itself seems to be specific to this publication and other references in which I find it are references back to this same publication. So it doesn’t seem to be a common phrase.

I was looking for confirmation, not spoon feeding.

I was just teasing.

By the way, it hasn’t been replicated, and given how, imho, God can play sometimes, and the amount of noise there is in this sort of data, it may never be.

Pray whatever, maintain the communication with the Centre beyond creation.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

What this study adds Remote intercessory prayer said for a group of patients is associated with a shorter hospital stay and shorter duration of fever in patients with a bloodstream infection, even when the intervention is performed 4–10 years after the infection

Am I understanding correctly that a person became sick, the god of the universe knows that years later there would be those that would pray for that person’s recovery, and so that god healed the person in question?

Let’s say I claim that I have access to a powerful genie. I, in 2015, make a wish that the Allies are successful on D-Day. I look in my history book and see that the Allies were successful on D-Day. Can I reasonably state that my genie was responsible for that?

 

[Aloysium]

Am I understanding correctly that a person became sick, the god of the universe knows that years later there would be those that would pray for that person’s recovery, and so that god healed the person in question?

Let’s say I claim that I have access to a powerful genie. I, in 2015, make a wish that the Allies are successful on D-Day. I look in my history book and see that the Allies were successful on D-Day. Can I reasonably state that my genie was responsible for that?

God is eternal, outside and overarching all time.
Every moment that has existed, does exist, and will exist in relation to this particular moment, is as real, as fresh, as new as this very moment. He is everywhere and in everything as its Father.
He knows the future only insofar as He is communicating with you in a specific moment. He is also there as much as He is here.
God is beyond any creature like the genie you imagine. We are taliking about the Real Source of all being, in all time and in all space, and beyond that - He is One.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

God is eternal, outside and overarching all time.
Every moment that has existed, does exist, and will exist in relation to this particular moment, is as real, as fresh, as new as this very moment. He is everywhere and in everything as its Father.
He knows the future only insofar as He is communicating with you in a specific moment. He is also there as much as He is here.

And I say my genie is also eternal and outside of time. You don’t believe my genie exists and you wouldn’t take it on faith that I linked my wish with the historical event. The way this is set up there is no way to look at those two events and either prove or disprove the wish and the event are related. At the very least would you agree that in the same manner that “retroactive prayer” is not convincing at all to those open-minded seekers of what is and isn’t true.

 

[Aloysium]

And I say my genie is also eternal and outside of time. You don’t believe my genie exists and you wouldn’t take it on faith that I linked my wish with the historical event. The way this is set up there is no way to look at those two events and either prove or disprove the wish and the event are related. At the very least would you agree that in the same manner that “retroactive prayer” is not convincing at all to those open-minded seekers of what is and isn’t true.

Such a genie does not exist. God exists.
God does not change the future or the past - He acts to bring the present, in every time, into existence.
Being in the future relative to where He was with the patients, and hearing the prayers, he chose to heal them. All this is happening now for Him. We exist in time. Nothing was changed.
You can go on believing that genies do not exist. I also do not believe in their existence. God is not a genie.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

Such a genie does not exist. God exists.
God does not change the future or the past - He acts to bring the present, in every time, into existence.
Being in the future relative to where He was with the patients, and hearing the prayers, he chose to heal them. All this is happening now for Him. We exist in time. Nothing was changed.

But that’s not an answer to the question I asked, which is whether you’d think “retroactive prayer” is convincing considering a post-event wish isn’t convincing. Remember the topic here is skepticism and that means looking at things with a critical eye, but you are asking us to take the existence of God uncritically.

So I’ll ask again: Do you think the argument for retroactive prayer is convincing? Should a skeptic look at claims of retroactive prayer and perhaps think there being a god is more possible?

Edited for grammar

 

[Aloysium]

But that’s not an answer to the question I asked, which is whether you’d think “retroactive prayer” is convincing considering a post-event wish isn’t convincing. Remember the topic here is skepticism and that means looking at things with a critical eye, but you are asking us to take the existence of God uncritically.

So I’ll ask again: Do you think the argument for retroactive prayer is convincing? Should a skeptic look at claims of retroactive prayer and perhaps think there being a god is more possible?

Edited for grammar

Retroactive prayer was shown to be efficacious in the treatment of infection by the experiment.
The experiment should be replicated to confirm the findings.
I take it that you are reluctant to accept empirically demonstrated findings if they conflict with your belief system.

I’m not asking you to do anything but suggesting you keep and open mind and heart and seek the truth.

I hadn’t thought about retroactive prayer, but the study made me laugh at how it must have been conceived and the results it obtained.

Although it says nothing at all about this possibility, I’m sure you and others might conclude from the experiment that the past can be changed.
Those of us who have lost a loved one, especially a child, will know that “hope” of denial, which wishes it would all go away, that we could wake up from the nightmare.
What is, is what it is, but we will be consoled in God.

There exists no reality in which those prayers were not said for the afflicted patients, by the way.