Skeptic Michael Shermer: Skepticism shaken to its core

[tonyrey]

What is a “retroactive” prayer?

retroactive = taking effect from a date in the past. In this case it refers to a prayer for some one who has been ill. It may seem strange to a materialist but there is no reason why life should be a one-way process.The full significance of a process is understood only if we know the final outcome. It is a mistake to think everything can be explained by what has happened in the past. Everything is purposeless if the future isn’t taken into account. When we plan ahead we make the present conform to a future state of affairs which reveals the meaning of what we have done.

So it is with life. The ultimate value and significance of what we do or try to do doesn’t depend on place or time. Love is worthwhile even when it seems to have failed and evil is worthless even when it seems to have succeeded. Its success is short-lived because it ends at death, whereas love is indestructible because it is the very source of vitality. That is why prayer is effective regardless of our physical circumstances. It is an expression of love that transcends everything else. To reject prayer as worthless is to make life meaningless…

 

[tonyrey]

Retroactive prayer was shown to be efficacious in the treatment of infection by the experiment.
The experiment should be replicated to confirm the findings.
I take it that you are reluctant to accept empirically demonstrated findings if they conflict with your belief system.

I’m not asking you to do anything but suggesting you keep and open mind and heart and seek the truth.

I hadn’t thought about retroactive prayer, but the study made me laugh at how it must have been conceived and the results it obtained.

Although it says nothing at all about this possibility, I’m sure you and others might conclude from the experiment that the past can be changed.
Those of us who have lost a loved one, especially a child, will know that “hope” of denial, which wishes it would all go away, that we could wake up from the nightmare.
What is, is what it is, but we will be consoled in God.

There exists no reality in which those prayers were not said for the afflicted patients, by the way.

From God’s point of view it doesn’t matter when or where we pray. His activity is not restricted by time or space. To think prayer is only effective for the present and future underestimates His power - and to think prayer is never effective overestimates the power of mindless molecules…

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

Retroactive prayer was shown to be efficacious in the treatment of infection by the experiment.
The experiment should be replicated to confirm the findings.
I take it that you are reluctant to accept empirically demonstrated findings if they conflict with your belief system.

Let’s not and cast aspersions on my character. I’d love to read the article but even the free subscription to the site requires giving my phone number. Do you know where one can read the article without divulging personal information? I’d be interested in reading the methodology as well as to look through the numbers described in the summary.

I’m not asking you to do anything but suggesting you keep and open mind and heart and seek the truth.

Apart from the link to the article summary, everything you’ve given is alleged truth by fiat. God does exist. He can answer prayers that he knows will be made in the future (which again brings up issues of freewill).

I hadn’t thought about retroactive prayer, but the study made me laugh at how it must have been conceived and the results it obtained.

Exactly. How was it constructed? What measures were taken to assure there wouldn’t be any legitimacy issues? What were the time frames of the patients getting sick to when they were being prayed for? Were some of the parties involved already dead when they asked some people to pray for them?

Although it says nothing at all about this possibility, I’m sure you and others might conclude from the experiment that the past can be changed.

Those of us who have lost a loved one, especially a child, will know that “hope” of denial, which wishes it would all go away, that we could wake up from the nightmare.
What is, is what it is, but we will be consoled in God.

There exists no reality in which those prayers were not said for the afflicted patients, by the way.

That’s another thing. Of the people who were part of the control group, how many of them had prayers by people outside of the experiment, and how many of those that did died anyway?

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

I think I found a copy online:

deanradin.com/evidence/Leibovici2001.pdf

I’m reading it now.

 

[Bradski]

Zeitoun being a good example. But as someone said: ‘Some arguments are ridiculous on their own merit’ and don’t need to be investigated. Is that why the Vatican didn’t investigate this? It’s ridiculous?

Well, that someone was you. So naturally you agree.

I kinda think so.

So we have a miracle which isn’t a one-off unrepeatable event - Mary appeared numerous time over 3 years. It’s not just a report of what someone said they saw and none of those people available to check the story - it’s actual eyewitness testimony with many of the people still alive today. It wasn’t just a report in a newspaper - it was filmed by camera crews and photographed I don’t know how many times. It’s not like it wasn’t investigated at the time – the Coptic church did a full investigation at the time and confirmed it as a verifiable miracle. It’s not like it was seen by hundreds, or even thousands – most reports put it in the millions.

But let’s face it, as we’ve agreed, even with this overwhelming weight of potential evidence, some things are too ridiculous to investigate. And if we (and the Vatican) consider this to be too ridiculous to investigate, then I think we can put Fatima in the same category. Or rather, due to the comparative paucity of evidence, I think we can safely say that Fatima isn’t in the same ball park (except that the Vatican did investigate Fatima and seems to think it’s kosher. A little odd. Anyway, we might get back to that…).

So we have one miracle that has more alleged evidence that you could poke a stick at (although there’s still no signs of any decent photos I’m afraid) and it’s not just someone surviving an illness, it’s the very mother of Jesus making a regular appearance. Yet we both agree it’s too ridiculous to investigate. Just not worth it. I mean, why would you bother. You and I both know that Mary wasn’t really there. And likewise, with hardly any evidence at all, we both know that the sun didn’t stop for a few minutes or dance around for a while at Fatima. In comparison to Zeitoun, it’s even more of a waste of time to investigate.

So you and I wouldn’t bother, would we. I guess Shermer might agree with us and he wouldn’t bother either. I mean, he’s just like you and me. He knows the sun doesn’t dance around, so why bother spending time checking up on it. And like you and me he knows the Virgin Mary doesn’t parade around on rooftops waving to the crowds. As we said, and as I’m sure he’d agree, too ridiculous to bother making any effort. We all know what the result of any serious investigation would be.

Let’s face it, you might as well ask him to check on trite examples of dead people sending messages from the grave. Like maybe radios temporarily starting to play music.

I mean, how ridiculous.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . everything you’ve given is alleged truth by fiat. God does exist. He can answer prayers that he knows will be made in the future (which again brings up issues of freewill). . . Of the people who were part of the control group, how many of them had prayers by people outside of the experiment, and how many of those that did died anyway?

I can’t make myself not know what I know. I’m just passing it on by “fiat” I suppose.
It would be too difficult and time consuming to describe how this has been derived through my interactions with people, contemplation of scripture and through prayer, as part of my relationship with God.

BMJ is an respected journal whose articles are reviewed before being printed. I would assume that it passed.

None of this information about the control group matters. It is accounted for in its being a control group.

I don’t particularly have much interest in pursuing the matter as it does not affect my faith any more than had the study not found an association.
It did make me laugh though, bringing home a pretty clear message as to how He relates to all of us from His eternal Now, into each moment of our existence, and how intimately we are all linked, each in our own time and space, together in love. Whether the findings are replicated or not, this is Reality.

 

[Bradski]

From God’s point of view it doesn’t matter when or where we pray. His activity is not restricted by time or space. To think prayer is only effective for the present and future underestimates His power - and to think prayer is never effective overestimates the power of mindless molecules…

This has to be one of the most bizarre claims I have ever heard. Here’s a scenario that will make your head hurt:

I get sick. I don’t tell anyone – it’s just between me and my doctor. For whatever reason, I get better. I tell everyone that I dodged a bullet. A Christian friend tells me that the prayers of friends and family obviously worked.

Bradski: Ah, that’s where you are wrong friend. No-one knew I was sick, so no prayers were said.
Chris: But, Bradski, old boy, you’ve told everyone now.
Bradski: Yeah, well I’m not sick now.
Chris: Yes, but prayers that your family and friends are saying NOW helped you recover THEN.
Bradski: You’re an idiot. Get out…

Anyone want to tell me how to word a prayer for someone who was ill but is all better now? And tell me if he does get better and still no-one says a prayer, how does he not get better in the past? Are there any investigations being planned to see if prayers work better before, during or after an illness?

 

[Aloysium]

For all the atheists out there, my take on this study is that it is like a scientific apparition, unlikely ever to be approved as such by the church or reproduced (unless He wills it), but deep inside where we are alone with God, it evokes the joy that comes with this reminder of His infinite nature and the love eternal that binds all creation to Him.

 

[Bradski]

And another thing…

Who the hell says prayers for someone who has recovered from an illness?

If someone is ill, then people might pray that she gets better. In my mind, a waste of time, but not illogical if you believe in the power of prayer. But what do you do when you find out that someone was ill and has now recovered? It doesn’t matter how many pray then - nothing happens. She’s already recovered. No surprises there. But what happens if no-one says a prayer? Does she get worse?

‘You have to pray for my recovery’
‘But you’ve already recovered’
‘Yes, but that may be because you WILL pray for me’
‘What if I don’t?’
‘Then…umm, I won’t have recovered’
‘But you’ve already recovered’
‘Yes, but that may be because you WILL pray for me’
‘What if I don’t?’
‘Then…’

Rinse and repeat.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

I can’t make myself not know what I know. I’m just passing it on by “fiat” I suppose.
It would be too difficult and time consuming to describe how this has been derived through my interactions with people, contemplation of scripture and through prayer, as part of my relationship with God.

Believe me, I’m not trying to sway you from your faith. It’s just that when I brought my analogy of a genie who I suggested worked in a manner (where wishing/praying for an event to have occurred works) I wanted to know what difference there was between the two scenarios. You said that you believed God to be true, which I understand, but I was hoping for some ways that from a neutral perspective that one can see the truth in praying versus wishing.

BMJ is an respected journal whose articles are reviewed before being printed. I would assume that it passed.

So I read over the paper and as a non-scientist I only have two minor quibbles:

1. I would have preferred that the charts regarding the days with fever and days in the hospital were also given as bar graphs instead of just being broken down into quartiles. From what I could see it would only take very few subjects in the upper quartile with extra long stays to throw off the numbers. A bar graph would demonstrate if 4 or 5 such patients out of hundreds did just that.
2. The paper concludes by saying “Remote, retroactive intercessory prayer can improve outcomes of patients with a bloodstream infection.” I would think that more tempered language might be appropriate.

My big issue though is that the differences in numbers for deaths are not much different between the prayed-for and control groups (2 percent). It definitely is slightly askew from random chance but it’s not an astounding success at this time. I know more and more of these types of studies are being done, so I’m interested in seeing how this one will match with the previous tests and the ones yet to come. I must say it is an interesting idea.

None of this information about the control group matters. It is accounted for in its being a control group.

That’s not necessarily the case. If by random chance more of the control group had been prayed for than the retroactively-prayed-for group, or vice versa, that can skew results. In fact, if it is the latter where the retroactively-prayed-for group was prayed for more when they were sick, it’s possible that it could show that realtime intercessionary prayer works whereas reactionary prayer does not.

I don’t particularly have much interest in pursuing the matter as it does not affect my faith any more than had the study not found an association.

That’s fair. One test (unless the results were amazing) won’t get many people to change one way or the other.

It did make me laugh though, bringing home a pretty clear message as to how He relates to all of us from His eternal Now, into each moment of our existence, and how intimately we are all linked, each in our own time and space, together in love. Whether the findings are replicated or not, this is Reality.

Obviously we’re going to disagree on that.

 

[tonyrey]

From God’s point of view it doesn’t matter when or where we pray. His activity is not restricted by time or space. To think prayer is only effective for the present and future underestimates His power - and to think prayer is never

You’re unable to imagine a panoramic view of history from start to finish, Brad. If you were the Creator you could intervene at any point you wish - like a writer adding details to his novel. It’s the sum total of events that counts, not the order in which they occurred. If prayer is effective it doesn’t matter whether it is said long before the illness or two thousand years later. It cannot obliterate the illness but it can make it less serious, less painful and less protracted. We can’t change the past but that doesn’t mean it can’t be modified by God. It isn’t a question of all or nothing as you seem to think but of “sweetening the pill”. We’ll all suffer and die eventually but the details will make a big difference. Since no one knows how much another person suffers it is impossible to know the extent to which it can be mitigated by prayer. It takes an act of faith to proclaim it is absolutely impossible…

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

‘You have to pray for my recovery’
‘But you’ve already recovered’
‘Yes, but that may be because you WILL pray for me’
‘What if I don’t?’
‘Then…umm, I won’t have recovered’
‘But you’ve already recovered’
‘Yes, but that may be because you WILL pray for me’
‘What if I don’t?’
‘Then…’

Rinse and repeat.

I don’t know what your taste is in dumb but funny 80s comedies, but your scenario reminded me of a scene from Bill and Ted’s Excellent Adventure:

Bill: If only we could go back to two days ago before your dad lost his keys, and steal them.

Ted: Well, why don’t we?

Bill: Cuz we don’t have time, dude.

Ted: We could do it after the report.

Bill: Oh, yeah! Where should we put 'em?

Ted: How 'bout behind this sign?

[They find the keys behind the sign]

Bill: OK. Woah! It worked! Right, so when we’re done with the report, we have to remember to do this or else it won’t happen. Except it did happen! Ted, it was you who stole your dad’s keys!

 

[tonyrey]

And another thing…

Who the hell says prayers for someone who has recovered from an illness?

No one in hell bothers to say prayers!

If someone is ill, then people might pray that she gets better. In my mind, a waste of time, but not illogical if you believe in the power of prayer. But what do you do when you find out that someone was ill and has now recovered? It doesn’t matter how many pray then - nothing happens. She’s already recovered. No surprises there. But what happens if no-one says a prayer? Does she get worse?

‘You have to pray for my recovery’
‘But you’ve already recovered’
‘Yes, but that may be because you WILL pray for me’
‘What if I don’t?’
‘Then…umm, I won’t have recovered’
‘But you’ve already recovered’
‘Yes, but that may be because you WILL pray for me’
‘What if I don’t?’
‘Then…’

Rinse and repeat.

You should pray for my recovery.’
‘But you’ve already recovered.’
‘Yes, but I didn’t suffer as much as other people.’
‘What if I don’t?’
‘Then…I would have suffered more than I did.’
‘But you’ve already recovered’
‘Yes, but that’s because your prayers make all the difference’
‘What if I don’t?’
‘Then you don’t care how much I suffer…’

 

[Bradski]

If prayer is effective it doesn’t matter whether it is said long before the illness or two thousand years later. It cannot obliterate the illness but it can make it less serious, less painful and less protracted.

Ah, so you’ve made a study of this. Prayer cannot heal anyone at all. Just makes them feel a little better. One wonders about all that time and effort people make travelling to Lourdes just to ‘feel a little better’. And I take it that praying for God to cure someone’s cancer is not going to work. What you have to do is ask God to make it ‘less serious, less painful and less protracted’ (I’d be careful about asking for it to be less protracted if I were you – you should think these things through. I can make any illness less protracted all on my own – we don’t need God for that).

And perhaps maybe you can go into a little more detail as to how a prayer you say now makes someone feel a little less pain in, say, 1915. Do you know of anyone or heard of anyone at all, I mean literally anyone whatsoever, at any time, in any place, who has been dumb enough to pray in order that someone who is already dead would suffer less? Or should that be ‘would have suffered less’? I’m struggling with the tenses here…

If you have a report that says someone in World War 1 dies in agony and you get thousands of people to pray for him, then does the writing mysteriously change before your very eyes just like in Back to the Future?

This is getting weirder. Seriously, no less weirder than Mike’s example:

Bill: OK. Woah! It worked! Right, so when we’re done with the report, we have to remember to do this or else it won’t happen. Except it did happen! Ted, it was you who stole your dad’s keys!

Some things you believe. Some things you doubt. Some things you are sceptical about. And some things are just so risible, so far off the wall that the wall is not even in the picture, that they are comparable to a surreal joke in an eighties movie. I can’t even work up the effort to be sceptical.

 

[Bradski]

You should pray for my recovery.’
‘But you’ve already recovered.’
‘Yes, but I didn’t suffer as much as other people.’
‘What if I don’t?’
‘Then…I would have suffered more than I did.’

‘I suffered quite a lot’
‘OK, hang on - I’ll pray for you’.
‘Ah, that’s better. I didn’t suffer so much now’.

Surreal…

 

[tonyrey]

You should pray for my recovery.’
‘But you’ve already recovered.’
‘Yes, but I didn’t suffer as much as other people.’
‘What if I don’t?’
‘Then…I would have suffered more than I did.’

‘I suffered quite a lot’
‘OK, hang on - I’ll pray for you’.
‘Ah, that’s better. I didn’t suffer so much now’.

Surreal… ‘I suffered quite a lot’
‘OK, hang on - I’ll pray for you’.
‘Ah, that’s better. I didn’t suffer so much now’.

Surreal…‘I suffered quite a lot’
Brad: ‘Sorry, old chap. Just grin and bear it’.
‘You’re just making it worse with your negative attitude’.
Brad: ‘Just take an overdose. That’ll put you out of your misery.’
‘Can’t you do anything to help me?’
Brad: ‘Wish I could but life is a beast. The sooner we get it over with the better. There’s no point in being here anyway. I’ll pop round to the shop and get some pills. There’s no point in wasting any more time, is there? After all, we have to be realistic, don’t we? I’‘ll be back as soon as I can.’

 

[tonyrey]

If prayer is effective it doesn’t matter whether it is said long before the illness or two thousand years later. It cannot obliterate the illness but it can make it less serious, less painful and less protracted.

A dogmatic do-it-yourself philosophy!

And perhaps maybe you can go into a little more detail as to how a prayer you say now makes someone feel a little less pain in, say, 1915. Do you know of anyone or heard of anyone at all, I mean literally anyone whatsoever, at any time, in any place, who has been dumb enough to pray in order that someone who is already dead would suffer less? Or should that be ‘would have suffered less’? I’m struggling with the tenses here…

If you have a report that says someone in World War 1 dies in agony and you get thousands of people to pray for him, then does the writing mysteriously change before your very eyes just like in Back to the Future?

This is getting weirder. Seriously, no less weirder than Mike’s example:

Some things you believe. Some things you doubt. Some things you are sceptical about. And some things are just so risible, so far off the wall that the wall is not even in the picture, that they are comparable to a surreal joke in an eighties movie. I can’t even work up the effort to be sceptical.

You’re obviously unaware Catholics pray for the dead - which according to you is a complete waste of time because we consist of nothing more than flesh and blood. Your only problem is that naked apes imagine they’re sceptical. In reality they don’t know anything at all. They just eat, drink, search for food, fight, kill, mate, sleep and die. No need to believe, doubt, speculate or come to any conclusions. No mental effort required. Life is much simpler than you think, Brad.

 

[Aloysium]

God is One.
He is the Source of all that is.
He is Love itself, as three persons in one transcendent being.
Through His love, He brings all creation into existence.
We can be said to exist as individuals within the infinite sea of His compassion.
We are eternal, relational beings, created as “self-other”.
God is relationality - communion through the giving of oneself to what is other (whom He has created).
This universe that He brings into existence has dimensions that include time and space.
Beyond, outside of, and not a part of creation, God creates time and space.
He is everywhere and in everything as its Father.
He is here with us as we discuss Him.
He is in every time and in every place, bringing it into existence, as He brings this very moment into being.
As real as this is, so is every moment in itself, even though for you and me the past is gone and the future is yet to be.
He is the God of the living, and all humanity, all time is alive in Him.
This universe is wondrous, reflecting God’s being Beauty, Goodness, life and Truth itself.
As our Father, He cares for us and seeks our love.
We are free to choose whether or not to return His love.

I cannot understand how anyone can appreciate any of this without prayer.
These are basic truths (stated in my own manner of course) that remain hidden outside of an intimate relationship with God.
One knows God by relating, speaking to Him.

I would add that at a certain point, the pursuit one’s needs becomes secondary to the fulfillment of His will to love.
We speak to God about our needs and those of others, knowing He’s got it all covered.

 

[TarkanAttila]

If it leads him to come to know the living and true God, it leads him to God. If it does not, it is worth as much as his learning.

 

[Bradski]

You’re obviously unaware Catholics pray for the dead…

And according to you, that will make them suffer less before they died. Utterly bizarre…