Skeptic Michael Shermer: Skepticism shaken to its core

[Bradski]

I remember being in pain and I have no way of knowing whether it could have been less severe if some one had prayed for me but I don’t rule out the possibility on principle.

I missed this and it deserves a response.

If you were ill and in pain, but now recovered, then you will have a memory of that pain. Doctors use a one to ten scale to judge the degree of pain. Let’s say that it was severe - a nine.

After you have recovered, someone prays for you. Now you have stated that that could affect what you felt when you were ill. It can lessen the pain retroactively.

So on Monday, you say the pain, as you remember it, was a nine. On Tuesday, someone prays for you and the pain you felt when you were ill is lessened (was lessened?). Let’s say to a five.

What do you remember the pain as being on Wednesday?

 

[GodMadeMe]

This is definitely the strangest thread I have ever encountered. To change the past is one of the obvious examples that God is not able to do, along the other logical contradictions.

Tony said: A loving God would surely not ignore our requests and I don’t see why He would be powerless as far as the past is concerned.
So let’s put it into practice. I urge you all to start praying to God to make the Holocaust retroactively nonexistent. As tony said: “A loving God would surely not ignore our requests…” and I challenge him to put his money where his mouth is. I can already foresee his objection: “God is not a vending machine”… which contradicts his other observation: “A loving God would surely not ignore our requests…” The sad thing is that such self-contradictions are all over the place. The even sadder thing is that no one (from your side) challenges it.

Is he really saying that a prayer now can effect the physical outcome of the Holocaust?

 

[GodMadeMe]

I missed this and it deserves a response.

If you were ill and in pain, but now recovered, then you will have a memory of that pain. Doctors use a one to ten scale to judge the degree of pain. Let’s say that it was severe - a nine.

After you have recovered, someone prays for you. Now you have stated that that could affect what you felt when you were ill. It can lessen the pain retroactively.

So on Monday, you say the pain, as you remember it, was a nine. On Tuesday, someone prays for you and the pain you felt when you were ill is lessened (was lessened?). Let’s say to a five.

What do you remember the pain as being on Wednesday?

Well the degree of pain in the past would be simultaneously consistent with the prayer from the future. The effect would be simultaneous and so there wouldn’t be a worser pain in the past. It just means the pain would have been worse if the prayer from the future never happens.

It seems impossible at first glance. But in principle if God, being outside of time, receives a prayer from a point in time simultaneously, then that prayer is not bound by any particular time state. Perhaps God can change the past simultaneously in response to all prayers from all time states even though this would create a new time line and we would have no knowledge of the old timeline. Perhaps events are happening over and over again.

Or perhaps I’m wrong. Retroactive intercession is a counterintuitive concept, and i would say that it doesn’t work unless you alter the future from where the prayer came from. Or maybe God already knows all prayers and so the pain is less than what it could have been had God not known.

I don’t know.

 

[powerofk]

It seems impossible at first glance. But in principle if God, being outside of time, receives a prayer from a point in time simultaneously, then that prayer is not bound by any particular time state. Perhaps God can change the past simultaneously in response to all prayers from all time states even though this would create a new time line and we would have no knowledge of the old timeline. Perhaps events are happening over and over again.

Or perhaps I’m wrong. Retroactive intercession is a counterintuitive concept, and i would say that this doesn’t work unless you alter the future from where the prayer came from.

I don’t know.

I’ve always believed that prayers can only change outcomes of which the person has no knowledge. If the outcome is known, then the prayer is ineffectual. For example, we can’t know whether a person who has died was in a state of grace when he or she died. If we did know the state of the person’s soul at the time of death, no prayer would help. Only God knows - but for God, there is no past or future - there is only the present. It’s similar to us, really - we’re always in the present, but our present is always moving from the past to the future. For God, though, the past, present, and future are all one. Eternity is truly a concept that our current state cannot truly comprehend. We will only understand eternity once we are in the eternal realm.

 

[Pallas_Athene]

Is he really saying that a prayer now can effect the physical outcome of the Holocaust?

By implying that current prayers will retroactively change events in the past (Insh’Allah or God willing), yes he does. As such people who assert this really exhibit an unusually huge dose of irrationality.

 

[tonyrey]

Is he really saying that a prayer now can effect the physical outcome of the Holocaust?

I am saying that a prayer at any time and in any place can affect the outcome of any event at any time and in any place because God’s love and power transcends time and space and are not restricted by human criteria of His love and power.

With God All Things Are Possible…

Matthew 19.26

Prayer now can affect the physical outcome of the Holocaust in many ways** within reason**. It cannot prevent the Holocaust from having occurred but it can modify the consequences of the evil events that occurred. For example, it can alleviate the suffering of the victims and prevent them from having leukaemia. It may well be the reason why some individuals were not injured or killed. I’m sure there were miraculous survivals amongst all the carnage and destruction.

Can anyone give a good reason why this could not have happened?

 

[tonyrey]

By implying that current prayers will retroactively change events in the past (Insh’Allah or God willing), yes he does. As such people who assert this really exhibit an unusually huge dose of irrationality.

Irrational by your standards which - according to you - are determined by events beyond your control. Therefore they must be irrational unless events beyond your control have insight and understanding…

 

[tonyrey]

I’ve always believed that prayers can only change outcomes of which the person has no knowledge. If the outcome is known, then the prayer is ineffectual. For example, we can’t know whether a person who has died was in a state of grace when he or she died. If we did know the state of the person’s soul at the time of death, no prayer would help. Only God knows - but for God, there is no past or future - there is only the present. It’s similar to us, really - we’re always in the present, but our present is always moving from the past to the future. For God, though, the past, present, and future are all one. Eternity is truly a concept that our current state cannot truly comprehend. We will only understand eternity once we are in the eternal realm.

We can never know** all** the causes and outcomes of events in a person’s body. There have been many cases of “spontaneous” remission of disease, some or all of which may be due to prayer. Even a prayer for the sick which doesn’t mention individuals is not a waste of time.

 

[tonyrey]

Well the degree of pain in the past would be simultaneously consistent with the prayer from the future. The effect would be simultaneous and so there wouldn’t be a worser pain in the past. It just means the pain would have been worse if the prayer from the future never happens.

It seems impossible at first glance. But in principle if God, being outside of time, receives a prayer from a point in time simultaneously, then that prayer is not bound by any particular time state. Perhaps God can change the past simultaneously in response to all prayers from all time states even though this would create a new time line and we would have no knowledge of the old timeline. Perhaps events are happening over and over again.

Or perhaps I’m wrong. Retroactive intercession is a counterintuitive concept, and i would say that it doesn’t work unless you alter the future from where the prayer came from. Or maybe God already knows all prayers and so the pain is less than what it could have been had God not known.

I don’t know.

Yet you have hit the nail on the head: “God already knows all prayers”. As far as He is concerned no prayers are retrospective. They all occur in the eternal present.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . Can anyone give a good reason why this could not have happened?

It does:

I imagine the deceased as being outside time. Those in communion with God would have access to the entirety of our lives. Their intercessions affect events in time.

At the end of our lives, a final prayer, a turning to God will transform the totality of our life from hell to paradise.

I think it is where prayer and faith are seen as personal strengths, that problems arise.
But, Moses did not part the Red Sea, God did.
It was through prayer that Moses knew of God’s will.
God is not some buddy who has your back, and prayer that connects us to God ultimately originates in His call to us.

 

[tonyrey]

I remember being in pain and I have no way of knowing whether it could have been less severe if some one had prayed for me but I don’t rule out the possibility on principle.

You are missing the point, Brad. The prayer was already effective when I had the illness. Physical criteria do not apply to spiritual reality. Truth, freedom and justice are not determined by our opinions but exist beyond time and space. They exist whether we believe in them or not. Similarly the power of prayer extends to the past, present and future. It is retrospective as well as prospective.

You think it’s absurd to believe in the power of prayer. I think it’s absurd not to believe in the power of the mind.

 

[tonyrey]

Let’s assume for a moment that Tonyrey misspoke or simply erred when he wrote that. Okay, fine. It happens. He learns and moves on.

The take-home for you is that prayer is efficacious for the dead IN PURGATORY. I think we both know that he has erred. I think we both know that he knows that as well. I do try to correct my mistakes, or at least admit them. Good for the soul, I guess.

I’d like Tony to do the same. He has a track record of avoiding doing so. It would be nice to see a change of heart. I think we both know that he has erred…

The fact that you’re an atheist speaks for itself! I can’t remember you ever having admitted you have made a mistake about the truth of Christianity…

 

[Aloysium]

. . . After you have recovered, someone prays for you. Now you have stated that that could affect what you felt when you were ill. It can lessen the pain retroactively. So on Monday, you say the pain, as you remember it, was a nine. On Tuesday, someone prays for you and the pain you felt when you were ill is lessened (was lessened?). Let’s say to a five. . . .

The study implies that the pain would have been worse had someone not prayed, and would have been better if someone had.
Reality as it exists in time does not change. This is illogical, and the study by no means says that.

The study does not speak to prayer changing what is now the past, but only that it influences the way it happened.
Additionally, while it cannot change events that have come and gone in time, most definitely prayer can mitigate their impact on the present.
This is because it involves speaking with God who transcends time and space as the Source of all there is.

 

[tonyrey]

*I think we both know that he has erred. I think we both know that he knows that as well. I do try to correct my mistakes, or at least admit them. Good for the soul, I guess.

An unlikely prospect! But I believe in miracles both prospective and retrospective.
Brad doesn’t; so it’s hardly surprising he tries to find fault with my track record. It all amounts to an argumentum ad hominem - unless he can substantiate his aspersions on my character.

 

[SonOfMan]

All this talk of retroactive prayer seems so silly. Many times Catholics have said, “Prayer isnt meant to change a situation, its meant to change you! (so that you can accept God’s will and accept the suffering, not lessen the suffering)”

 

[tonyrey]

The study implies that the pain would have been worse had someone not prayed, and would have been better if someone had.
Reality as it exists in time does not change. This is illogical, and the study by no means says that.

The study does not speak to prayer changing what is now the past, but only that it influences the way it happened.
Additionally, while it cannot change events that have come and gone in time, most definitely prayer can mitigate their impact on the present.
This is because it involves speaking with God who transcends time and space as the Source of all there is.

Indeed - but I would go further, Aloysium, and contend that prayer can mitigate the impact of past events on persons - such as survival in an earthquake. This is speculation but it corresponds to Our Lord’s promise that our prayers will be answered. He didn’t specify times or places!

 

[tonyrey]

All this talk of retroactive prayer seems so silly. Many times Catholics have said, “Prayer isnt meant to change a situation, its meant to change you! (so that you can accept God’s will and accept the suffering, not lessen the suffering)”

Why not just say:“All this talk of prayer seems so silly”? That would far simpler…

 

[tonyrey]

The context is all-important, Brad. How can we have a credible opinion on the efficacy or futility of prayer if we have no idea of what we are and why we are here?

No response!

 

[tonyrey]

No one said that it did.

Fact is, people used to worship the sun because they didnt know about it. Once they knew about it, they realized it wasnt a god and never was. Science wasnt trying to explain spiritual truths or debunk a god here, it merely states its results and thinking humans can connect the dots as to what these findings actually mean.

If I told you to stop eating your toast because it was the Breadgod you were eating, you’d shake your head knowing that this piece of toast was made at the bakery and that it was, in fact, not a god. In you knowing that bakeries exist and thats where this bread came from, youre not trying to debunk my Breadgod nor are you explaining spiritual truths here, you just know the facts about where bread comes from and it has nothing to do with spirituality.

You don’t seem to have any respect for Catholic beliefs. That’s one thing you can be sure about…

 

[Aloysium]

Indeed - but I would go further, Aloysium, and contend that prayer can mitigate the impact of past events on persons - such as survival in an earthquake. This is speculation but it corresponds to Our Lord’s promise that our prayers will be answered. He didn’t specify times or places!

I most definitely have prayed for a positive outcome although the news was that the situation was dire, until I saw with my own eyes. At that point it became a prayer, which continues, for the person’s eternal soul. It did not work out in this world as I would have preferred, but God’s will be done. He definitely knows best.