Skeptic Michael Shermer: Skepticism shaken to its core

[SonOfMan]

Why not just say:“All this talk of prayer seems so silly”? That would far simpler…

Because I personally dont see prayer or meditation to be silly. There are benefits.

What I find silly is specifically your idea of “retroactive prayer.”

 

[SonOfMan]

You don’t seem to have any respect for Catholic beliefs. That’s one thing you can be sure about…

I dont have any respect for Catholic beliefs because I know for a fact that the sun is not a god?

Tony, I really dont see how you come up with all this stuff. Its crazy.

 

[Aloysium]

Because I personally dont see prayer or meditation to be silly. There are benefits.

What I find silly is specifically your idea of “retroactive prayer.”

What is the difference. It is not a matter of changing anything that has or has not happened, but simply that, because we are invoking God, anything rational is possible in any place and any time. If you’ve got a complaint about the study because it does not confirm your biases, take it up with the scientific method.

 

[Aloysium]

Supplicationary prayers are not causal in the sense that the outcome is a direct result of the prayer.
One is simply giving over to God, one’s needs and the needs of others, which are already known to Him.

Thinking about retroactive prayer, another one is grace.
Before the meal and in every instance that one is reminded of the many gifts He has bestowed, the moment feels incomplete, if one does not give thanks.
I am not sure if the prayer can be said to have caused the food to be present on the table, but definitely those blessing and the subsequent prayers are inextricably linked as part of an ongoing relationship the person has with our Father.
Our needs and gratitude, and those of all humanity are to be shared with Him as part of our ongoing Journey to Him in Christ.

 

[tonyrey]

Because I personally dont see prayer or meditation to be silly. There are benefits.

What I find silly is specifically your idea of “retroactive prayer.”

Yet you have not explained why God **cannot **mitigate suffering regardless of whether it occurs in the past, present or future. What prevents Him? Your opinion of what is impossible? Or is there a better reason? Do you realise you are imposing limits on God’s power - which is rather presumptuous?

 

[SonOfMan]

Yet you have not explained why God **cannot **mitigate suffering regardless of whether it occurs in the past, present or future. What prevents Him? Your opinion of what is impossible? Or is there a better reason? Do you realise you are imposing limits on God’s power - which is rather presumptuous?

Ask your Catholic colleagues here on CAF. They claim God cannot make a square circle.

 

[tonyrey]

Ask your Catholic colleagues here on CAF. They claim God cannot make a square circle.

There is no comparison. A square circle is a logical contradiction whereas the fulfilment of a prayer is God’s response to a request.

 

[tonyrey]

What is the difference. It is not a matter of changing anything that has or has not happened, but simply that, because we are invoking God, anything rational is possible in any place and any time. If you’ve got a complaint about the study because it does not confirm your biases, take it up with the scientific method.

Science doesn’t exclude the possibility of events simply because they do not have an explanation. Otherwise it wouldn’t progress.

 

[Bradski]

You are missing the point, Brad. The prayer was already effective when I had the illness.

I see. You weren’t as ill as you could have been because…someone prays for you in the future. This is really Back to The Future stuff, isn’t it. But then again, we can test for this.

As I asked earlier, if you are sick and recover, you remember the pain. If someone prays for you after you recover, then what pain do you remember? Do you remember both, the bad pain before someone prayed and the lesser pain after they did? Do you suddenly forget the bad pain?

How does it work?

Well, I can answer that for you. You have no idea. Unless you’d like to have a stab in the dark.

 

[tonyrey]

I see. You weren’t as ill as you could have been because…someone prays for you in the future. This is really Back to The Future stuff, isn’t it. But then again, we can test for this.

As I asked earlier, if you are sick and recover, you remember the pain. If someone prays for you after you recover, then what pain do you remember? Do you remember both, the bad pain before someone prayed and the lesser pain after they did? Do you suddenly forget the bad pain?

How does it work?

Well, I can answer that for you. You have no idea. Unless you’d like to have a stab in the dark.

Only from your point of view. You are misjudging me again because you are not open-minded. You’re still differentiating the pain before the prayer and after the prayer. **There was only one pain and its severity was determined by the prayer before it even commenced. **There was no time sequence because like everything else the prayer is known to God before it occurs. It is only from our point of view that things happen one after another. If we could see everything at once we would understand that sincere prayer is effective whenever and wherever it is expressed and whenever and wherever it is needed. Like God’s love it is universal and unconditional.

It is a question of all or nothing. Either we reject the value of prayer, as you do, or we accept its mysterious nature. Whichever way you look at it it’s miraculous with no scientific explanation. There’s no point in objecting to one type of prayer if you are convinced all prayer is useless, is there?

BTW Don’t think there is no medical evidence:

BRITISH MEDICAL JOURNAL:

Effects of remote, retroactive intercessory prayer on outcomes in patients with bloodstream infection: randomised controlled trial

BMJ 2001; 323 doi: dx.doi.org/10.1136/bmj.323.7327.1450 (Published 22 December 2001)
Conclusions: Remote, retroactive intercessory prayer said for a group is associated with a shorter stay in hospital and shorter duration of fever in patients with a bloodstream infection and should be considered for use in clinical practice.

What is already known on this topic Two randomised controlled trials of remote intercessory prayer (praying for persons unknown) showed a beneficial effect in patients in an intensive coronary care unit
A recent systematic review found that 57% of the randomised, placebo controlled trials of distant healing showed a positive treatment effect

What this study adds Remote intercessory prayer said for a group of patients is associated with a shorter hospital stay and shorter duration of fever in patients with a bloodstream infection, even when the intervention is performed 4–10 years after the infection.

 

[Bradski]

You’re still differentiating the pain before the prayer and after the prayer. There was only one pain and its severity was determined by the prayer before it even commenced.

What the…? So if I’ve got a headache, it’s not as bad as it could have been because somebody in the future is going to pray for me. Well, OK. Tony, that obviously makes a lot of sense to you. You have a nice day, OK?

 

[Pallas_Athene]

What the…? So if I’ve got a headache, it’s not as bad as it could have been because somebody in the future is going to pray for me. Well, OK. Tony, that obviously makes a lot of sense to you. You have a nice day, OK?

The question is: why don’t those hypothetical “future boys” pray that there would be no headaches… no wars, no rapes… can you imagine how much better the past would be, if future prayers would have an effect on the past. Of course the present “prayer warriors” could concentrate on the present problems and ask God to alleviate them.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

The question is: why don’t those hypothetical “future boys” pray that there would be no headaches… no wars, no rapes… can you imagine how much better the past would be, if future prayers would have an effect on the past. Of course the present “prayer warriors” could concentrate on the present problems and ask God to alleviate them.

It’s because there is a limit to my genie’s wishes. As I mentioned before I wished a few days ago that the invasion of Normandy Beach from 70+ years ago would be successful. You’re welcome.

 

[Bradski]

There’s a prayer section somewhere on this forum. Has anyone seen anyone ask for prayers to help alleviate the suffering of someone who used to be ill?

‘Please could you pray for my Grandad who went through a lot of pain recently. If you do, then he…ummm…won’t have been in so much pain. I guess’.

I’ve said it before…surreal.

 

[tonyrey]

You’re still differentiating the pain before the prayer and after the prayer. **There was only one pain and its severity was determined by the prayer before it even commenced. **

A hopelessly inadequate response which ignores all my points plus the medical evidence, thereby demonstrating your inability to face the facts. In spite of that flaw I hope you have an enjoyable evening.

 

[tonyrey]

The question is: why don’t those hypothetical “future boys” pray that there would be no headaches… no wars, no rapes… can you imagine how much better the past would be, if future prayers would have an effect on the past. Of course the present “prayer warriors” could concentrate on the present problems and ask God to alleviate them.

Cynics reap what they sow. Nothing!

 

[tonyrey]

It’s because there is a limit to my genie’s wishes. As I mentioned before I wished a few days ago that the invasion of Normandy Beach from 70+ years ago would be successful. You’re welcome.

The only genie you have is the blind Goddess who leaves you to your fate… Happy dreams!

 

[tonyrey]

There’s a prayer section somewhere on this forum. Has anyone seen anyone ask for prayers to help alleviate the suffering of someone who used to be ill?

‘Please could you pray for my Grandad who went through a lot of pain recently. If you do, then he…ummm…won’t have been in so much pain. I guess’.

I’ve said it before…surreal.

Preferable to being unreal and living in a home-made coffin which excludes everything but dust and ashes!

 

[tonyrey]

The question is: why don’t those hypothetical “future boys” pray that there would be no headaches… no wars, no rapes… can you imagine how much better the past would be, if future prayers would have an effect on the past. Of course the present “prayer warriors” could concentrate on the present problems and ask God to alleviate them.

The real question is:

“Why don’t those who reject miracles waste their time and energy discussing answers to prayer?” Surely they can imagine how much better the world would be if they did something more useful and suggested practical ways of solving problems - such as inspiring incurably sick people by telling them prayer is a complete waste of time, they have nothing to look forward to when they die and they should take an overdose as soon as possible - after saying “Goodbye forever” to their loved ones of course.

A neat and tidy solution to all their problems! :clapping:

 

[Pallas_Athene]

The real question is:

“Why don’t those who reject miracles waste their time and energy discussing answers to prayer?” Surely they can imagine how much better the world would be if they did something more useful and suggested practical ways of solving problems - such as inspiring incurably sick people by telling them prayer is a complete waste of time, they have nothing to look forward to when they die and they should take an overdose as soon as possible - after saying “Goodbye forever” to their loved ones of course.

A neat and tidy solution to all their problems! :clapping:

I know it is not easy to look reality hard in the eyes. Not many people are willing to do it. Life is so much easier with a security blanket.