Skeptic Michael Shermer: Skepticism shaken to its core

[tonyrey]

“Why don’t those who reject miracles waste their time and energy discussing answers to prayer?” Surely they can imagine how much better the world would be if they did something more useful and suggested practical ways of solving problems - such as inspiring incurably sick people by telling them prayer is a complete waste of time, they have nothing to look forward to when they die and they should take an overdose as soon as possible - after saying “Goodbye forever” to their loved ones of course.

A neat and tidy solution to all their problems!

I know it is not easy to look reality hard in the eyes. Not many people are willing to do it. Life is so much easier with a security blanket.

Indeed. It’s very much easier if you regard this life as the be-all and end-all of your existence. As I pointed out, it’s a neat and tidy solution. That gives you total security! Death solves all your problems for once and for all - except one. It doesn’t solve anything! It assumes life has no value, purpose or meaning because there’s no reason why we are alive. Equality, freedom and justice are man-made illusions in a Godless universe where Chance is the supreme Goddess who explains nothing! Absurdity is the name of the game: “life is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing”. But then we must all be idiots! To me it seems far more likely that the idiots are those who believe life is a tale told by an idiot! Where on earth did they get their power to understand that everything is idiotic? ……

 

[Pallas_Athene]

Indeed. It’s very much easier if you regard this life as the be-all and end-all of your existence.

Is it? Life would be easier if one believed that there will be justice later on… that the bad people will be punished, and the good ones would be rewarded. If all the misery and pain would have a higher purpose. That is the security blanket, which is unavailable for the atheists.

It assumes life has no value, purpose or meaning because there’s no reason why we are alive.

So we are free to fill our life with meaning, value and purpose. And the result is visible, here and now. We don’t have to wait until we die. This life is precious because it is all we have. For atheists life has meaning, but death has no meaning. Life is not something that has to be endured in expectation of a better life later on. For atheists life must be filled with love and fun and happiness. (And that does NOT mean mindless hedonism.) We have the only afterlife which is certain: the memories we leave behind.

Equality, freedom and justice are man-made illusions in a Godless universe where Chance is the supreme Goddess who explains nothing!

You mean: “man-made REALITIES”.

And chance is part of life… Be thankful to the blind Goddess of Chance, because YOU are the result of that mad dash of millions of sperms toward the egg, a fortuitous combination of genes that gave us YOU, and not someone else. Life would be so boring with an Antonia instead of a Tony. There is no need to “explain” why did we get Tony and not a boring Antonia… we just enjoy the lucky outcome.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Is it? Life would be easier if one believed that there will be justice later on… that the bad people will be punished, and the good ones would be rewarded. If all the misery and pain would have a higher purpose. That is the security blanket, which is unavailable for the atheists.

So we are free to fill our life with meaning, value and purpose. And the result is visible, here and now. We don’t have to wait until we die. This life is precious because it is all we have. For atheists life has meaning, but death has no meaning. Life is not something that has to be endured in expectation of a better life later on. For atheists life must be filled with love and fun and happiness. (And that does NOT mean mindless hedonism.) We have the only afterlife which is certain: the memories we leave behind.

In your godless universe you cannot suppose that the meaning of life is defined as “love and fun and happiness.” These three things come to pass for Christians as well as atheists, and they come to Christians with greater depth of meaning and more permanence than any atheist security blanket. It should come as no surprise to anyone (except perhaps an atheist) that the rate of suicide in higher in countries that are dominantly more irreligious than in those that are religious.

If there is meaning to life, enough meaning to keep us wanting to live, theism is by far the more meaningful philosophy than atheism.

gallup.com/poll/108625/more-religious-countries-lower-suicide-rates.aspx

 

[icamhif]

It should come as no surprise to anyone (except perhaps an atheist) that the rate of suicide in higher in countries that are dominantly more irreligious than in those that are religious.

Where did you get that statistic from?

And keep in mind that Correlation ≠ Causation

 

[Pallas_Athene]

In your godless universe you cannot suppose that the meaning of life is defined as “love and fun and happiness.”

I am making it the meaning of my life. Also what do you mean by “cannot suppose”? Is this some kind of a prohibition by some authority?

These three things come to pass for Christians as well as atheists, and they come to Christians with greater depth of meaning and more permanence than any atheist security blanket.

Atheists have NO security blanket. And remember, for theists any love, fun and happiness in THIS world are secondary (at best) when comparing to the aim to get to heaven. Many of your ilk actually crave the possibility to emulate Christ’s passion - at least that is what they proclaim. But when the pain hits, they are just as likely to run to the doctor… which is very sensible of them. It merely shows their reluctance to “walk the walk”, no matter how loudly they “talk the talk”.

If there is meaning to life, enough meaning to keep us wanting to live, theism is by far the more meaningful philosophy than atheism.

But you are mistaken. I am simply not interested in mere survival for its own sake. I am only interested in comfortable, pleasant, meaningful, good living. And yes, I create my own meaning.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

But you are mistaken. I am simply not interested in mere survival for its own sake. I am only interested in comfortable, pleasant, meaningful, good living. And yes, I create my own meaning.

Spoken like a true materialist. All other animals share your sentiments, but no other animal pretends to create his own meaning. So are you just another animal, or are you something more than an animal with powers no other animal ever dreamed of?

 

[icamhif]

What the…? So if I’ve got a headache, it’s not as bad as it could have been because somebody in the future is going to pray for me. Well, OK. Tony, that obviously makes a lot of sense to you. You have a nice day, OK?

A hopelessly inadequate response which ignores all my points plus the medical evidence, thereby demonstrating your inability to face the facts. In spite of that flaw I hope you have an enjoyable evening.

If one doesn’t believe in the existence of God, then any appeal to “God being outside of time” to make a point about future prayer will (to them) sound just as big of an ad-hoc excuse as a believer in leprechauns saying that “they are invisible, so of course you can’t see them.”

 

[icamhif]

For atheists life must be filled with love and fun and happiness. (And that does NOT mean mindless hedonism.)

And if you run into a situation that makes life feel hopelessly lacking of love, fun, and happiness, what is your plan?

(Not being argumentative, just asking for your perspective.)

 

[Charlemagne_III]

If one doesn’t believe in the existence of God, then any appeal to “God being outside of time” to make a point about future prayer will sound just as big of an ad-hoc excuse as a believer in leprechauns saying that “they are invisible, so of course you can’t see them.”

It’s true for certain that man is the only creature who believes in God. It is for this reason that man is the only creature who can find meaning in his life, but he can’t find it without turning to God to explain to him why he has any meaning at all when no other creature on earth even begins to look for his meaning. But even the atheist will insist that life has meaning. He just vainly supposes that he himself assigns meaning to his life, when whatever meaning he has must have been assigned to him by his Creator. Let’s face it, please. What the atheist calls meaning is not really meaning. Life for the atheist is a meaningless assembly of thoughts and feelings that end in meaningless black death. It’s only when death approaches, as it does for every atheist (Jean Paul Sartre and Antony Flew, for just two examples) that the atheist looks for meaning in his death. And some, if they are bright and humble enough, begin to find it in life beyond death. There’s nothing so reassuring to a Christian as the sight of an atheist coming round to God at the end when the Christian has been coming around to God all his life.

 

[Pallas_Athene]

Spoken like a true materialist. All other animals share your sentiments, but no other animal pretends to create his own meaning. So are you just another animal, or are you something more than an animal with powers no other animal ever dreamed of?

In order to create meaning, the first requirement is to be able to create abstractions. I am not in the position to make broad assessments about everyone or everything else. Maybe there are other animals who can make abstractions and who can make conscious choices and decisions.

I most certainly do not believe that we (humans) are the “crown” of creation. Looking at many other humans I don’t like what I see. But I have never met or heard of an animal who (or what) would have deliberately and purposefully wanted to inflict pain, misery and suffering on others. Looks like that this whole consciousness is not what it is cracked up to be. When I look at the greater apes, especially the bonobos, I feel envy for their attitude: “make love not war”. Even if their love does not carry official blessing, nor it is aimed at procreation. We could and should learn from them.

 

[Pallas_Athene]

And if you run into a situation that makes life feel hopelessly lacking of love, fun, and happiness, what is your plan?

(Not being argumentative, just asking for your perspective.)

That is a good question, without easy answers. So far I have been spared of such a situation, so all I can do is speculate. I do know that I am an irrepressible optimist. But suppose that the situation is without hope, without remedy… then I would contemplate suicide. Very hard to imagine, due to my basically hopeful and cheerful disposition.

There is one example in front of me. My mother, whose health declined very rapidly (lung cancer) and she basically gave up on life. She refused to eat, therefore her strength went away fast, she kept on sleeping day and night until her final breath came. I was very fortunate to be at her bedside and hold her hand. That is my plan, if I can carry it out.

To end on a more cheerful note:

“When I go, I want to go like my grandfather; quietly in his sleep, not like the three passengers in his car screaming their heads off all the way to the bottom of the crevasse”.

 

[Pallas_Athene]

But even the atheist will insist that life has meaning. He just vainly supposes that he himself assigns meaning to his life, when whatever meaning he has must have been assigned to him by his Creator. Let’s face it, please. What the atheist calls meaning is not really meaning. Life for the atheist is a meaningless assembly of thoughts and feelings that end in meaningless black death.

Look at the brazen audacity of this post! And Christians are supposed to be “humble”. Bah, HUMBUG!

 

[tonyrey]

In your godless universe you cannot suppose that the meaning of life is defined as “love and fun and happiness.” These three things come to pass for Christians as well as atheists, and they come to Christians with greater depth of meaning and more permanence than any atheist security blanket. It should come as no surprise to anyone (except perhaps an atheist) that the rate of suicide in higher in countries that are dominantly more irreligious than in those that are religious.

If there is meaning to life, enough meaning to keep us wanting to live, theism is by far the more meaningful philosophy than atheism.

gallup.com/poll/108625/more-religious-countries-lower-suicide-rates.aspx

Worshipping the blind Goddess leads to death and despair rather than life and hope. In our secular society the number of suicides is steadily increasing.

 

[tonyrey]

Look at the brazen audacity of this post! And Christians are supposed to be “humble”. Bah, HUMBUG!

An irrational response which commits the fallacy of an argumentum ad hominem.

 

[tonyrey]

If one doesn’t believe in the existence of God, then any appeal to “God being outside of time” to make a point about future prayer will (to them) sound just as big of an ad-hoc excuse as a believer in leprechauns saying that “they are invisible, so of course you can’t see them.”

Any appeal to God is a waste of time where dogmatic materialists are concerned because their minds are closed - not surprisingly because they don’t believe they have a mind!

 

[Pallas_Athene]

An irrational response which commits the fallacy of an argumentum ad hominem.

I see. So he can hurl all those insults at atheists, but to point out the insults is now an ad hominem. I think I had enough of this.

 

[tonyrey]

Indeed. It’s very much easier if you regard this life as the be-all and end-all of your existence.

Their security blanket is having nothing to fear when they’re dead:

“For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause… who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscover’d country from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?”

• Hamlet

It assumes life has no value, purpose or meaning because there’s no reason why we are alive.

So we are free to fill our life with meaning, value and purpose. And the result is visible, here and now. We don’t have to wait until we die. This life is precious because it is all we have. For atheists life has meaning, but death has no meaning. Life is not something that has to be endured in expectation of a better life later on. For atheists life must be filled with love and fun and happiness. (And that does NOT mean mindless hedonism.) We have the only afterlife which is certain: the memories we leave behind.

So you do have your security blanket in spite of your protest to the contrary! But how can you fill your life with meaning, value and purpose when meaning, value and purpose don’t exist? You are merely deceiving yourself like a child pretending to be in wonderland. Death has certainly has a meaning for the atheist. In the words of Camus, it is “the supreme abuse” which demonstrates the absurdity and injustice of life. No sane person can believe life has meaning if we exist by chance. Life is never filled with love and fun and happiness for anyone on this earth: many people don’t even have the basic necessities of life and die of malnutrition. So much for your paradise with man’s blood-stained history…

Equality, freedom and justice are man-made illusions in a Godless universe where Chance is the supreme Goddess who explains nothing!

You mean: “man-made REALITIES”.

Freaks of nature are not free, equal or just because they are ruled by the law of the jungle. They’re dominated by the will to survive and the lust for power.

And chance is part of life… Be thankful to the blind Goddess of Chance, because YOU are the result of that mad dash of millions of sperms toward the egg, a fortuitous combination of genes that gave us YOU, and not someone else. Life would be so boring with an Antonia instead of a Tony. There is no need to “explain” why did we get Tony and not a boring Antonia… we just enjoy the lucky outcome.

According to “you” there is no “you”, just a horde of electrical impulses. Your hypothesis is riddled with contradictions from start to finish. You are constantly deriving something from nothing as if it’s the easiest thing in the world. The one true statement you have made is that “chance is part of life”, not the Supreme Factor. Your assertion “There is no need to explain” demonstrates that you have no explanation. Thanks for telling the truth. You’re making progress.

 

[tonyrey]

So you do have your security blanket in spite of your protest to the contrary!

It’s not an insult but a statement of fact. **Your security blanket is having nothing to fear after death. **You should be grateful not annoyed.

 

[PRmerger]

So we have a miracle which isn’t a one-off unrepeatable event - Mary appeared numerous time over 3 years. It’s not just a report of what someone said they saw and none of those people available to check the story - it’s actual eyewitness testimony with many of the people still alive today. It wasn’t just a report in a newspaper - it was filmed by camera crews and photographed I don’t know how many times. It’s not like it wasn’t investigated at the time – the Coptic church did a full investigation at the time and confirmed it as a verifiable miracle. It’s not like it was seen by hundreds, or even thousands – most reports put it in the millions.

But let’s face it, as we’ve agreed, even with this overwhelming weight of potential evidence, some things are too ridiculous to investigate. And if we (and the Vatican) consider this to be too ridiculous to investigate, then I think we can put Fatima in the same category.

Then if we do, then we have to put PA’s criteria for evidence for God as “too ridiculous” as well, don’t you think?

 

[PRmerger]

I guess Shermer might agree with us and he wouldn’t bother either. I mean, he’s just like you and me. He knows the sun doesn’t dance around, so why bother spending time checking up on it. And like you and me he knows the Virgin Mary doesn’t parade around on rooftops waving to the crowds. As we said, and as I’m sure he’d agree, too ridiculous to bother making any effort. We all know what the result of any serious investigation would be.

Let’s face it, you might as well ask him to check on trite examples of dead people sending messages from the grave. Like maybe radios temporarily starting to play music.

I mean, how ridiculous.

Except that…

it shook his skepticism to its core.

(You keep forgetting about this part for some reason).

And yet…

oddly, this investigative science reporter doesn’t wish to investigate this very, very, mysterious phenomenon.

#ohsopeculiarindeed