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Bradski
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Now I have muesli all over my iPad…
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clem456
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It always struck me as a problem for atheists, that the belief they claim has the word “god” in it. There’s a certain element of acknowledgment of God, or at least recognizing that god is someone or something worth believing against. If god wasn’t worth believing against, why would you be an atheist?
Certainly it acknowledges a belief system, which is an interesting position. A belief system acknowledges the validity of things outside one’s self, and seems to draw people out of self reference and into community with others. “I believe X, in contrast to your belief in Y, and in harmony with others who believe X.”
Is a belief a belief outside the context of other beliefs?
Certainly it acknowledges a belief system, which is an interesting position. A belief system acknowledges the validity of things outside one’s self, and seems to draw people out of self reference and into community with others. “I believe X, in contrast to your belief in Y, and in harmony with others who believe X.”
Is a belief a belief outside the context of other beliefs?
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Bradski
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If I may…
It constantly amazes me that any number of Christians think that an atheist is someone who doesn’t believe in just their god. I’m sure those who follow different religions are equally bemused.
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clem456
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No, I’m speaking generally, god (small g). Vishnu, Allah, ok, not any specific god.
Small g god.
A higher reality outside oneself.
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Bradski
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Fair enough. I was actually going to point out that I was using the capital G but you weren’t. But I see it was intentional on your part. But if you tell any given Christian that you are an atheist, the reply is never: ‘Oh, so you don’t believe in gods’.
No, I’m speaking generally, god (small g). Vishnu, Allah, ok, not any specific god.
Small g god.
A higher reality outside oneself.
Actually, thinking about it, that would apply to almost anyone, not just Christians.
At least we’re not talking about…that other subject.
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PRmerger
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Yeah. Trent Horn addresses that in his book.
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Charlemagne_III
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There’s no such thing as a devoted atheist?
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Mike_from_NJ
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If someone speaks out against something that doesn’t mean that something has worth or truth, just that it has a power behind it (and in this case that power comes from its believers and not from its deity).
This argument (such as it is) comes in many forms. For some atheists speaking out against a god (one or more different flavors thereof) might allegedly mean they find him/her/them praiseworthy. Some even go so far as to say such arguments mean that atheists secretly believe god (the specific god of the person making the claim) is true.
If you want here’s a fun 9-minute video showing how silly such arguments are, that because atheists don’t speak out against Voltron (Defender of the Universe) in the same way as they do against the Christian god that they must think the Christian god is real.
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clem456
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I’m not claiming that atheists believe in a god or believe he is real. It’s a given that you reject the concept of god.
I’m observing that atheists believe something.
In the Christian realm, believing means more than understanding and agreeing to concepts.
If I believe something, I give my whole being to it. It’s the surrendering, or the gift of one’s self, to something outside one’s self. In Christianity, we take the radical step of uniting ourselves to a person. Our being and identity is united to a relationship with a person who is radically and completely “other”.
A name means something. It lends a voice to what we profess to believe in. It expresses the fundamental identity, the reality we choose to immerse ourselves in.
“I am”…Steve. Being Steve means something, it’s not just a word. I have an identity as a person, it expresses my being.
“I am”…a plumber. A plumber is not just a word, there is a life behind the word with a story and reality all his own. It may seem like just a word, but when I use it with “I am”, it expresses a deeper reality.
“I am” a Christian. My identity proposes something I give my life to. Because I am not the only human being alive (who is??), my identity must be in relation to others. My identity proclaims something not just for my benefit, but for the benefit of others. Otherwise, why would I have an identity to express???
“This is who I am, and there is something I would like to tell you about my identity and belief”.
I am merely observing that one who claims the identity of “a-theist” is proclaiming a belief, and that belief is a “not belief”. It doesn’t proclaim what you have given your life to. This particular “not belief”, a-theism, needs god to proclaim it’s non-identity.
Elsewise, you would call yourself “goodforallpeople-ist”, or something like that, which proposes and gives identity to what you believe in.
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Mike_from_NJ
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clem, I realize that for many Christians being a Christian is the most important part of their lives. For some they’ll say their relationship with Jesus exceeds that of the ones with their families.
Atheists (at least the ones I’ve dealt with) don’t consider their atheism to encompass who and what they are. It’s one of several facets but it’s not the be-all and end-all.
Some Christians when asked to describe themselves in one word would say “Christian”. Doing so not only describes their position on a higher power but also covers a checklist of other facets of who they are. I am an atheist, but that only covers one facet of my being. There is no single term that is a checklist of things that make up me. That isn’t better or worse than the Christian’s single-term usage – just different. To suggest it is worse is to equate the value of a person’s beliefs solely with the brevity needed to describe them.
Atheists (at least the ones I’ve dealt with) don’t consider their atheism to encompass who and what they are. It’s one of several facets but it’s not the be-all and end-all.
I agree that a name means something, but a name which describes a portion of our beliefs doesn’t have to describe all of them.
Some Christians when asked to describe themselves in one word would say “Christian”. Doing so not only describes their position on a higher power but also covers a checklist of other facets of who they are. I am an atheist, but that only covers one facet of my being. There is no single term that is a checklist of things that make up me. That isn’t better or worse than the Christian’s single-term usage – just different. To suggest it is worse is to equate the value of a person’s beliefs solely with the brevity needed to describe them.
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Charlemagne_III
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I see your point and agree with it.
A belief is an idea you subscribe to without absolute proof.
I absolutely believe in God, but have no absolute proof to offer others.
Likewise, the atheist absolutely believes there is no God because he has no absolute proof of that.
And I think atheism often guides a person’s life in many ways, negatively to be sure.
No God.
No soul.
No immortality.
No absolute truth, goodness, or beauty to be known here or hereafter.
Etc.
Atheists also can be very devoted to their cause … to the extent of writing books in defense of atheism, or giving talks, or in protesting religious demonstrations of religious people, or participating in dialogues at Catholic Answers, etc.
Atheism has to be as important to atheists as religion is to theists, for the simple reason that it is the base line from which virtually all other important judgments are made.
At least I thought so when I was an atheist.
An atheist who has no high regard for his own atheism cannot be much of an atheist.
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tonyrey
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What are the other facets of your life opposed to scepticism? Do you believe in truth, justice, human rights, liberty, equality, fraternity and love for your neighbour?
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clem456
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Can you see how it is hard to have an honest discussion on those terms.
A person who identifies himself as a Christian proposes a comprehensive answer, or the path to a comprehensive answer, to the questions which every human being has, without exception.
It would strain credulity to say that an atheist is not concerned with these questions.
"where did I come from, where am I going, why do I exist, why and how should I be “good”, or should I not be “good”, what’s best for me, what’s best for others, how should society be formed?. etc… ". Or you may come to the conclusion that none of these things matter and have no bearing on your life. Possible, but if you have come to that conclusion, you have considered the questions in order to reject their value. So it almost defies belief that a person has not considered common questions that fill the hearts of every human person.
Christians believe in a certain way to address the mysteries of life. You claim the “negative” answer to this proposition. You do not believe as we do. You are a-theist. No problem.
But you also say “atheist” does not fully convey your identity.
What does? And if “atheist” is inadequate to convey your identity as you say above, why do you claim the identity?
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Cassianus
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Atheism is an assertion about reality. That’s why it’s called atheism & not agnosticism. Trying to redefine atheism to mean agnosticism to give the appearance of being open to possibilities while staying with the congregations & doctrines of the atheists seems to me unhelpful because the terminology is well established in philosophy & goes back millennia.
Theism is the belief in God’s existence & Atheism is the belief that God doesn’t exist. Atheism is the disbelief in both assertions, while remaining open to accept either proposition if satisfactory evidence I shown.
Agnosticism is the default position & the only position that makes sense if you disbelieve the evidence for God’s Being. If atheism simply was a lack of belief it would include the lack of belief that there is no God or that God is.
So atheism is definitely a belief system, but hey, that’s why there’s religious freedom; so you can choose what religiosity suits you best for yourself.
Personally, I don’t believe in the existence of atheists.
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Pallas_Athene
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These types of questions do not form a homogenous group. Some are valid questions, others are not. And they are only of passing interest, if at all.
Of course not. It is a miniscule part of what we are. It just seems to be important when we are participating in a religious discussion forum. On a forum discussing politics one might choose a label of liberal, or conservative or libertarian, anarchist, or some other designation. On a forum which discusses literary questions one might select a label which describes the primary literary interest. And so on.
We are all complex and complicated beings, and one label cannot describe what we are. Not even Christians in general. Most Christians are not concerned with their faith on a day-to-day basis. They might go to church once a week. Others take it very seriously. I had a neighbor family, and they got up at about 5 in the morning to read and study the bible, to pray together. Others only go to church at Christmas and Easter.
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clem456
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Ok, atheist describes a part of who you are.
Who are you at your core, if it is not full time atheist? And why are you here to be part-time atheist with Christians who are “all in”, or should be anyway. Whether or not a Christian is all-in, that is the invitation of Christianity: to be all-in for Christ.
How can there be a discussion between a part time believer and a full time believer? And what’s the point?
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Pallas_Athene
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Indeed. Atheism is a metaphysical stance, it deals with the question of “what exists”. Agnosticism deals with epistemology: “how do we know it”? It was a very unfortunate choice of words, which tried to create a “middle ground”, by asserting that one “chooses to suspend belief”. You cannot volitionally choose to believe or not. There is no middle ground. You either believe or you don’t. Tertium non datur.
There are four kinds of people: “gnostic theists”, “agnostic theists”, “gnostic atheists” and “agnostic atheists”.
Almost correct. Theism (in general) is a belief that some god or gods exist. Metaphysically speaking a “god or gods” are “supernatural” beings, epistemologically speaking they are “transcendent”. Atheism is simply a lack of the theistic belief.
You can choose to say that “atheism is the lack of belief in a god or gods”, or you can say that “atheism is a belief that a god or gods do not exist”. There is absolutely no difference between the two ways to describe atheism.
Some people like to say that atheism is a “positive” belief (namely that God does not exist), and assert that atheists have no evidence for God’s nonexistence. This is a very dumb and frustrating thing to say. There cannot be a positive evidence for “nonexistence”, and to demand it only shows that the person asking for it has no idea what he is talking about.
Of course the “evidence” for God’s nonexistence is the “lack of evidence for God’s existence”. I have an excellent evidence for the “lack of an invisible, fire breathing dragon in my basement”… namely that there is NO evidence for such a dragon.
The rest of your post I was unable to parse.
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Mike_from_NJ
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Yes, on all those. I’m not going to lay my position on everything. Just be assured that I am more than my atheism.
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Mike_from_NJ
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We can most certainly have an honest discussion on those terms. We just can’t have a simplistic discussion based solely on terms that do not reflect the whole of us.
I would agree more to the latter of an idea of it being a path to a comprehensive answer rather than a comprehensive answer to humanity’s questions. There is too much disagreement among Christians to say it’s comprehensive in and of itself about some things.
I agree. Lucky for us no one at any point has said atheists don’t have deep questions the way religious do.
You’re talking yourself in circles. In general, atheists ponder life’s mysteries just as in general most people do.
Right. It’s quite possible for a term to describe one facet of a person and not describe a person in his or her entirety. If I say I belong to a certain political party/stance it will cover some of what I am but not all of it. The same is true for much of what describes me: Everything from what social justice means to me, to economics, to how to best raise children, to whether I believe in psychic abilities.
There is no single word that pertains to all that I am. I can make a word up, mikeocity, but it’s only going to pertain to me. The other atheists on this thread can have their own words to describe them, since their viewpoints in some ways will differ from mine.
I’m sorry that there is no single term to define us in broad strokes or that the word atheist doesn’t go beyond its definition. You’re going to have to deal with us as individuals. Even better, focus on the commonality among atheists (the lack of belief in any gods) and convince us that we are incorrect.
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Mike_from_NJ
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/double post/
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