Slain in the Spirit

[guanophore]

My opposition is not driven by fear. This is a sorry attempt of trying to convince those opposed to these novelties, by guilt, into subjecting themselves to a form of group hysteria. You also imply that I have little trust in God, I can assure you that you are mistaken.

There are people who avoid the charisms out of fear. This is certainly not true of everyone. That fear is not necessarily related to a lack of trust in God, either. I have met several staunch avoiders here on CAF that seem to be afraid of their own emotions, their interiority.

 

[GEddie]

It has nothing to do with my “regard” whatsoever. The falling phenomenon seen in the Charismatic Renewal is not an act of supplication or adoration. It is not a petition, or an intercession. It is not related to any kind of “appeasement”.

The falling phenomenon in Charismatic Renewal is not related to falling backwards into sin or backsliding. It is not figurative, but physical. The OP is making the point that the experience is not authentic because it is not described in the Scriptures.

Morning, I think you have misunderstood the intention of the OP. She is saying she does not believe in the falling phenomenon that is seen in the Charismatic renewal.

This may be important for you, but for Catholics, it is strongly urged that they not participate in Protestant activities of this kind. I don’t think finding out “who is leading these groups” has anything to do with the OP. She is saying it is not valid, no matter who is doing it.



Good for the Archbishop!

Yes, but it has nothing to do with the OP.

This is very commendable.

Yes, but this is not necessarily related to the falling phenomenon either. Plenty of devoted persons have this without falling to the ground.

There is also the manner of falling. There is nothing natural or relaxed about the the human body toppling like a tree, although that can easily happen when someone is being leaned into. It smacks of psychological suggestion to me.

ICXC NIKA

 

[po18guy]

There is also the manner of falling. There is nothing natural or relaxed about the the human body toppling like a tree, although that can easily happen when someone is being leaned into. It smacks of psychological suggestion to me.

ICXC NIKA

Well, there really is no other way of falling, is there? Simple physics determines the manner of response once one experiences total relaxation under the influence of the Holy Spirit. This can occur without falling to someone bed-ridden just as well as those standing. It can happen to the wheelchair bound. And, yes, it can certainly seem like psychology - until you actually experience it.

 

[guanophore]

There is also the manner of falling. There is nothing natural or relaxed about the the human body toppling like a tree, although that can easily happen when someone is being leaned into. It smacks of psychological suggestion to me.

ICXC NIKA

I am not sure what falling you are witnessing, but it is true that no leaning into a person is necessary, in fact, no touch is necessary at all. The HS usually works this phenomenon through a person’s hands, but clearly it happens to some people who are not touched at all. Just because a person topples like a tree does not mean they are not relaxing, either. Some people hold more tension in their body than others. Topplers like that are often fighting it off.

It is a fact that certain phenomenon can occur to one person, or a group of people as a result of psychological suggestion. It is unlikely that a person will have a powerful encounter with the Living God as a result of one, however.

 

[MorningSong51]

It has nothing to do with my “regard” whatsoever. The falling phenomenon seen in the Charismatic Renewal is not an act of supplication or adoration. It is not a petition, or an intercession. It is not related to any kind of “appeasement”.

Guanophore:

I understand that you a member of the Charismatic Renewal group of the church - that I understand. Also, I understand that the group that you belong to might be structured entirely different from other denominations/movements outside of the church, which is obvious. You personally (and I don’t know this) have not either seen this done with the falling either way. However, this doesn’t mean I’m either right or wrong - it’s been done! If this hadn’t been done - Ginger probably wouldn’t have posted what she saw - and what she knows to be the wrong from this type of Charismatic movement - like you said, Ginger is stating that this was wrong.

So, that its kind of straight - I’m not the one who is advocating the position from another movement. I’ve been to a Charismatic gathering - I’ve witness the behavior (as I’ve mentioned) it may not be “what” you would approve of - but it is not my congregation. I went at the request of a friend and I’m giving others on the board some advice on what to talk about before they go and also decide “if” they want to participate, as free choice! This (like I said) is a good conversation, so far - but it is “not” a endorsement for either end.

The falling phenomenon in Charismatic Renewal is not related to falling backwards into sin or backsliding. It is not figurative, but physical. The OP is making the point that the experience is not authentic because it is not described in the Scriptures.

I’ve explained this - and like BD said, over and over again! It seems that other members want to move this conversation along because this is going to much back and forth. The term Backsliding is someone who is like Ananias and Sapphira, who lie - those who appear visibly to everyone, on the outside, as being saved - but inside their not saved, they just act as though they are. (not my interpretation - there are many websites out there to explain this understand of the word and how it also refers to falling backwards, and I’ve listed that with Ginger at the beginning - )

quote from the thread master:

Of course not. But the Lord God manifests Himself in ways so that we can identify the True God from counterfeits. And what I have in charismatic churches doesn’t resemble the God in the Holy Scriptures. Worse yet is these people don’t even seem to try to heed the warnings in Scriptures, they just run ahead with it.

So really - counterfeits, only means that these members are/or think they are fooling everyone around them, but obviously if Ginger picked up on it - its the same thing as Ananias and Sapphira, its lying:yup:

quote from the thread master:

The reason I don’t believe they are having a “God experience” is because it doesn’t click with what happened in the Scriptures. I have already listed several verses to back up my opinion.

Ginger - might be picking up on something inside self, from that experience and internally (spiritually),that this was not according to scripture and it was something that she felt (personally) as a wrong and what I told Ginger is that you can not be “slain in the spirit” if the person isn’t saved - unless of course, they had a conviction, a person who has witness to them…

and repeating:

We cannot “lie unto” an attribute, or against wisdom, or power, or goodness; nor can we “lie unto” an “influence,” merely, of the Most High. Sin is committed against a “Being,” not against an “attribute”; and as a sin is here charged on Ananias against “the Holy Spirit,” it follows that the Holy Spirit has a “personal” existence, or that there is such a distinction in the divine essence that it may be proper to “specify” a sin as committed especially against him. In the same way sin may be represented as committed especially against the “Father” when his “name” is blasphemed; when his “dominion” is denied; when his mercy in sending his Son is called in question. Sin may be represented as committed against “the Son” when his atonement is denied; his divinity assailed; his character derided, or his invitations slighted. And thus sin may be represented as committed against “the Holy Spirit” when his office of renewing the heart, or sanctifying the soul, is called in question,

 

[MorningSong51]

continue:

Morning, I think you have misunderstood the intention of the OP. She is saying she does not believe in the falling phenomenon that is seen in the Charismatic renewal.

Thread Master’s post:

Sorry if I wasn’t clear. People who were demon possessed would sometimes convulse while possessed by a demon (Luke 9:42) and also when the demon was cast out they might convulse. It was the demon causing the convulsing, not God. So I was pointing out that I don’t believe being “slain in the spirit” of God would cause people to go into convulsions.

There are always “catchers” at these events to make sure someone isn’t injured when the fall down.

I’ve heard - see post #25 & 29, and Yes, I understand that too, I only gave definitions to the terms, you’re really the one who jumped the gun. What I also read - is the scriptural points she listed and they don’t go with the term falling backwards - when someone is falling face to the ground - and gave a link, a contradiction. AAAgain, someone who is not saved can’t have a “slain in spirit” experience…and again, you jumped the gun on the terms and definitions. AND, now where here - you and me! - and my feet are beginning to hurt from you stepping on them all the time. uch:

Thread Master quote:

As has been pointed out, people rarely fell, but sometimes prostrated themselves in fear or reverence, but I couldn’t find any believer falling backward - ever.

But, I stop short of denying all instances.

This may be important for you, but for Catholics, it is strongly urged that they not participate in Protestant activities of this kind. I don’t think finding out “who is leading these groups” has anything to do with the OP. She is saying it is not valid, no matter who is doing it.

Guanophore? Where did the Protestant activities come in? I’m very curious about this remark/or remarks… I’ve read several posts on line that had asked if some can attend another denomination, church functions, revivals…etc. In the same breath, if a friend invites you to a function or gathering, then “ask” more questions about it and also “if in question” what denomination. It doesn’t offend anyone by asking - it would offend someone if you went and stood off in a corner and didn’t enjoy with that person (friend, neighbor) a close religious connection - that’s what makes people understand each other. What so bad about this? I don’t understand where you’re coming from, at all.

Good for the Archbishop!

yes, I’m glad too and also he is aware and very visible to our community - he’s a new Archbishop and also I want to say that he’s very involved with everyone, but then again - we have a beautiful community as a whole, so you can’t help being active.

Yes, but it has nothing to do with the OP.

I’ve pointed to some of the previous posts…

Thread Master’s post: and this is a description of backsliding -

Worse yet is these people don’t even seem to try to heed the warnings in Scriptures, they just run ahead with it.

This is very commendable.

At mass, the priest, invites all of us into the sharing of the greetings (at the beginning), prayers, the scripture, and also (and the most important) the sharing of the bread – the bread that came down to us from Heaven – the Holy Eucharist, “the Church opens to the faithful the riches of the Lord’s powers and merits, so that these are in some way made present in every age in order that the faithful may lay hold of them and be filled with saving grace” (Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, #102). At every Eucharist, in a real yet mystical way, we become present to these central mysteries of our Faith.

What do we do at a formal meal? We gather with our family and friends, we talk and share our stories, and then we move to the table. The food is brought to the table, we say grace, and we pass the food and eat and drink. Finally, we take our leave and return to our homes. The Mass has these same four movements: 1) Gathering, 2) Storytelling, 3) Meal sharing and 4) Commissioning. LINK: A Walk Through the Mass

When we pray, we open ourselves up to God - we are in communion with him. This is as mystical or as to say “Charismatic” good gift that flows from God’s benevolent love" - thank you for thinking it was very commendable…that meant a lot to me. My gift for sharing that experience.

6." There exists, then, a strict relationship between revelation and prayer. The Dogmatic Constitution “Dei Verbum” teaches that by means of his revelation the invisible God, “from the fullness of his love, addresses men as his friends (cf. Ex 33:11; Jn 15:14-15), and moves among them (cf. Bar 3:38), in order to invite and receive them into his own company.”(4) This revelation takes place through words and actions which have a constant mutual reference, one to the other; from the beginning everything proceeds to converge on Christ, the fullness of revelation and of grace, and on the gift of the Holy Spirit. These make man capable of welcoming and contemplating the words and works of God and of thanking him and adoring him, both in the assembly of the faithful and in the intimacy of his own heart illuminated by grace.

Read more: rcspiritualdirection.com/blog/2009/04/27/the-vatican-on-christian-meditation-and-centering-prayer#ixzz1aeW2uelQ

Yes, but this is not necessarily related to the falling phenomenon either. Plenty of devoted persons have this without falling to the ground.

But everything exposed by the light becomes visible,for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said: “Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.”

 

[Ginger2]

I don’t know if it is dishonesty, but it is a fact that the modern falling phenomenon found in the Charismatic renewal has nothing to do with the scriptural references you gave, falling foward or backward, nor with the figurative interpretation given my Morning.

If you wish to believe that persons who experience this phenomenon are “not right with God”,that is certainly your perogative, but the conclusion is based upon a false premise.

I agree with you completely, G. I have been saying all along it is not the same thing. I gave these examples to show that. People falling backward as a sign of being under God’s grace of influence, is not Scriptural.

Ginger

 

[MorningSong51]

Mary there is no indication in Acts 5, in what direction Ananias physically fell when he died. The OP was talking about physically falling forward or backwards to try and spiritualize this is just plan dishonest.

10At that moment** she fell down at his feet and died**. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events.

BD, now if my feet are in front of me, and another person had their back towards me then they would fall backwards on them - that is one possibility. However, if they didn’t - then they would fall forward at my feet. Think about this for a second.

Now, spiritualizing - this is just plan dishonest? Barnes’ Notes on the Bible I was quoting from another source. Would you like the Catholic version?

“In the painful case of Ananias and Sapphira too, Peter showed his authority as the one responsible for the community. Rebuking that Christian couple for their lie about the purchase price of some property, he accused the two guilty parties of having lied to the Holy Spirit” (cf. Acts 5:1-11).vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19921216en.html

Same thing that Barne’s notes (in my last post)…This is a example of falling backwards - in term you can not withhold yourself back while under the guidance of the Spirit - you bet it is a Charismatic issue. You can’t (sort of speak) be acceptance to the Spirit in one sense and be withholding yourself in another way - a house divided.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God–Ephesians 2:9 You can not turn on salvation and turn it off whenever you want…then it not from God, it becomes your own making. That would be dishonest to everyone - and offensive (I would think) to Spirit of Truth - the same Spirit that descended on the Apostle at Pentecost. Wouldn’t you think?

Salvation is made possible by the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Salvation is a process that begins when a person first becomes a Christian, continues through that person’s life, and is completed when one stands before Christ in judgment. Therefore, according to Catholic apologist James Akin, the faithful Christian can say in faith and hope, “I have been saved; I am being saved; and I will be saved.”

falling backwards - and falling forwards are two totally different terminologies. Backwards - or - backsliding are the same but not equal, one is more of a greater sin.

Quoting: puritansermons.com/erskine/eerskin12.htm

"First, I would give you some scriptural names by which it is called. And sometimes it is called a looking back: Luke 9:62: “No man putting his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of heaven.” My friends, you have been professing to set your faces heavenward; O beware of casting a back-look upon your old lovers: “Remember Lot’s wife;” take heed that God do not set you up as monuments of his vengeance. Again; it is sometimes called a turning back: Lam. 1:8: “Jerusalem sigheth, and turneth backward.” The way to heaven will not admit of a retreat; you must still be pressing forward, whatever opposition may be in your way. Again; sometimes it is called a drawing back: Heb. 10:38: If any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. Moreover, it is called a sliding back; intimating, that the people who are not well established in religion stand upon slippery ground: Hos. 11:7: “My people are bent to backsliding from me.” Furthermore, it is called a falling back: Is. 28:13: “The word of the Lord was unto them, precept upon precept, and line upon line; that they might go and fall backward, and be broken, and snared and taken;” and you know a backward fall is exceedingly dangerous. Lastly, To mention no more, it is called a turning aside. It is said of Israel, that “they quickly turned aside like a deceitful bow;” which frustrates the design of the archer, by shooting away, or beside the mark. They who “turn aside into crooked ways,” whatever may be their pretenses to religion, miss the mark of the same, even the “mark and prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus; and shall be led forth,” and have their part “with the workers of iniquity.”

 

[MorningSong51]

additional add on: …BD:

1. There exists, then, a strict relationship between revelation and prayer. The Dogmatic Constitution “Dei Verbum” teaches that by means of his revelation the invisible God, “from the fullness of his love, addresses men as his friends (cf. Ex 33:11; Jn 15:14-15), and moves among them (cf. Bar 3:38), in order to invite and receive them into his own company.”(4) This revelation takes place through words and actions which have a constant mutual reference, one to the other; from the beginning everything proceeds to converge on Christ, the fullness of revelation and of grace, and on the gift of the Holy Spirit. These make man capable of welcoming and contemplating the words and works of God and of thanking him and adoring him, both in the assembly of the faithful and in the intimacy of his own heart illuminated by grace.

Read more: rcspiritualdirection.com/blog/2009/04/27/the-vatican-on-christian-meditation-and-centering-prayer#ixzz1aeW2uelQ

 

[guanophore]

I understand that you a member of the Charismatic Renewal group of the church - that I understand. Also, I understand that the group that you belong to might be structured entirely different from other denominations/movements outside of the church, which is obvious.

Actually, it is not obvious to a great many people, both Catholic and Protestant, that there are significant differences between Catholic and non-Catholic Charismatics. One of those differences is that Catholics are obligated to submit all spiritual expereinces to the authority of the Church for validation.

You personally (and I don’t know this) have not either seen this done with the falling either way.

I have seen people fall forward in adoration and honor. I have seen people fall backward due to the work of the devil, both physically and spiritually. I have seen people rest in the Spirit, which is unrelated to either of the first two.

However, this doesn’t mean I’m either right or wrong - it’s been done!

I am not saying your observations of spiritual backsliding are wrong. Ginger2 opens this thread with the premise that the experiences described in Scripture of obesieance or falling dead or down because of evil are not wrong. None of these descriptions relate to the falling phenomenon seen in the charismatic renewal. What is wrong is trying to equate them.

If this hadn’t been done - Ginger probably wouldn’t have posted what she saw - and what she knows to be the wrong from this type of Charismatic movement - like you said, Ginger is stating that this was wrong.

Ginger2 has two false premises she is using to draw her conclusion that the phenomenon is wrong. You seem to be attempting to refute this using an invalid arguement.

So, that its kind of straight - I’m not the one who is advocating the position from another movement. I’ve been to a Charismatic gathering - I’ve witness the behavior (as I’ve mentioned) it may not be “what” you would approve of - but it is not my congregation. I went at the request of a friend and I’m giving others on the board some advice on what to talk about before they go and also decide “if” they want to participate, as free choice!

Catholics are strongly discouraged by the Church from attending non-Catholic services that have these practices. Of course it is their free choice. For a Catholic, it is a poor choice.

 

[guanophore]

This (like I said) is a good conversation, so far - but it is “not” a endorsement for either end.

The point you are trying to advance is irrelevant. Spiritual backsliding has nothing to do with the falling phenomenon addressed by the OP. Neither do either of the categories she describes in the opening post.

I’ve explained this - and like BD said, over and over again! It seems that other members want to move this conversation along because this is going to much back and forth. The term Backsliding is someone who is like Ananias and Sapphira, who lie - those who appear visibly to everyone, on the outside, as being saved - but inside their not saved, they just act as though they are. (not my interpretation - there are many websites out there to explain this understand of the word and how it also refers to falling backwards, and I’ve listed that with Ginger at the beginning - )

This is not accurate, either, Morning. While there is a spiritual backsliding where people achieve certain progress in their faith, then “slide backward” from it, there is absolutly no evidence that Ananias and Sapphira should be included in this category. Nothing they said or did, or anything in the text indicates that the two backslid from any more advanced point in their faith. They lied to the Holy Spirit. God’s judgement fell upon them for this act. The biblical description has nothing to do with the modern falling phenomenon of the charismatic renewal.

quote from the thread master:

So really - counterfeits, only means that these members are/or think they are fooling everyone around them, but obviously if Ginger picked up on it - its the same thing as Ananias and Sapphira, its lying:yup:

You are certainly entitled to your erroneous perceptions, and may share them with Ginger. In my experience the persons involved in these kinds of conterfieits are themselves convinced they are of God. They are not trying to fool anyone. They believe they are filled with the Holy Spirit.

quote from the thread master:

Ginger - might be picking up on something inside self, from that experience and internally (spiritually),that this was not according to scripture and it was something that she felt (personally) as a wrong and what I told Ginger is that you can not be “slain in the spirit” if the person isn’t saved - unless of course, they had a conviction, a person who has witness to them…

Yes, she does seem to believe this. This is not the only false conclusion Ginger2 has drawn here on CAF which is based upon her false premises. However, one thing is certain. It would be a good idea if neither of you participated in any activity of an ecclesial community that demonstrates these kinds of activities. The possiblity of coming across something that is counterfeit is very high.

and repeating:

It is against the forum rules to post quotes like this without a reference, Morning.

Personally, I do like to read Barnes Notes, Explanatory and Practical, On the Acts of the Apostles (By Albert Barnes), but he is here making the case that the biblical vignette tesifies to the Trinity. It has nothing to do with the falling phenomenon found in the Charismatic renewal.

I've heard - see post #25 & 29, and Yes, I understand that too, I only gave definitions to the terms, you're really the one who jumped the gun. What I also read - is the scriptural points she listed and they don't go with the term falling backwards - when someone is falling face to the ground - and gave a link, a contradiction. AAAgain, someone who is not saved can't have a "slain in spirit" experience...and again, you jumped the gun on the terms and definitions. AND, now where here - you and me! - and my feet are beginning to hurt from you stepping on them all the time. :ouch:

Thank you for your definitions, buth the terms you have worked so hard to define on this thread have nothing to do with the falling phenomenon in the charismatic renewal. Neither do either of the categories of falling cited in the OP. I apoligize about your toes. It is not my intention to step on them. I am only pointing out that what you are writing about, and Ginger2’s complaint have nothing to do with each other.

Guanophore? Where did the Protestant activities come in? I’m very curious about this remark/or remarks… I’ve read several posts on line that had asked if some can attend another denomination, church functions, revivals…etc. In the same breath, if a friend invites you to a function or gathering, then “ask” more questions about it and also “if in question” what denomination. It doesn’t offend anyone by asking - it would offend someone if you went and stood off in a corner and didn’t enjoy with that person (friend, neighbor) a close religious connection - that’s what makes people understand each other. What so bad about this? I don’t understand where you’re coming from, at all.

While this is a valid question that deserves a good answer, it is outside the scope of this thread. If the OP does not mind going there, then will respond, otherwise, it should be on another thread.

 I've pointed to some of the previous posts....

Thread Master’s post: and this is a description of backsliding -

No, I don’t think it does, Morning. I think the OP is describing the falling phenomenon found in charismatic circles. It has nothing to do with backsliding.

 

[guanophore]

At mass, the priest, invites all of us into the sharing of the greetings (at the beginning), prayers, the scripture, and also (and the most important) the sharing of the bread – the bread that came down to us from Heaven – the Holy Eucharist, “the Church opens to the faithful the riches of the Lord’s powers and merits, so that these are in some way made present in every age in order that the faithful may lay hold of them and be filled with saving grace” (Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, #102). At every Eucharist, in a real yet mystical way, we become present to these central mysteries of our Faith.

While this is a very true and accurate statement (thanks for the reference, by the way), it also has nothing to do with the OP.

What do we do at a formal meal? We gather with our family and friends, we talk and share our stories, and then we move to the table. The food is brought to the table, we say grace, and we pass the food and eat and drink. Finally, we take our leave and return to our homes. The Mass has these same four movements: 1) Gathering, 2) Storytelling, 3) Meal sharing and 4) Commissioning. LINK: A Walk Through the Mass

When we pray, we open ourselves up to God - we are in communion with him. This is as mystical or as to say “Charismatic” good gift that flows from God’s benevolent love" - thank you for thinking it was very commendable…that meant a lot to me. My gift for sharing that experience.

6." There exists, then, a strict relationship between revelation and prayer. The Dogmatic Constitution “Dei Verbum” teaches that by means of his revelation the invisible God, “from the fullness of his love, addresses men as his friends (cf. Ex 33:11; Jn 15:14-15), and moves among them (cf. Bar 3:38), in order to invite and receive them into his own company.”(4) This revelation takes place through words and actions which have a constant mutual reference, one to the other; from the beginning everything proceeds to converge on Christ, the fullness of revelation and of grace, and on the gift of the Holy Spirit. These make man capable of welcoming and contemplating the words and works of God and of thanking him and adoring him, both in the assembly of the faithful and in the intimacy of his own heart illuminated by grace.

Read more: rcspiritualdirection.com/blog/2009/04/27/the-vatican-on-christian-meditation-and-centering-prayer#ixzz1aeW2uelQ

It is great you are researching and studying your faith, Morning. But none of tihs is remotely related to the OP or the thread topic.

But everything exposed by the light becomes visible,for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said: “Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.”

Finally you have made a statement related to the OP! What Ginger2 is saying is that the modern phenomenon of falling found in the charismatic circles is an expression of “darkness” and that this should be obvious in the light of what scripture says about falling, both forward and backward.

 

[1voice]

Backward/ forward … irrelevant.

What is needed is the the active gift of discerning of spirits … one of the tools that the HS has bestowed in order to equip the Church.

“In the last days I will pour out of my Spirit on all flesh.”

When God does a “new thing” the enemy, according to Jesus, comes to steal, kill, destroy.

“but when the enemy comes in … the Lord raises up a standard against him!”

Discernment is crucial to separate the hamburger (real meat) from the hamburger helper.

 

[Indyann]

While this is a very true and accurate statement (thanks for the reference, by the way), it also has nothing to do with the OP.

It is great you are researching and studying your faith, Morning. But none of tihs is remotely related to the OP or the thread topic.

Finally you have made a statement related to the OP! What Ginger2 is saying is that the modern phenomenon of falling found in the charismatic circles is an expression of “darkness” and that this should be obvious in the light of what scripture says about falling, both forward and backward.

guanophore, I want to congratulate you on your example of patience and charity on this thread. Very impressive:thumbsup:

 

[guanophore]

guanophore, I want to congratulate you on your example of patience and charity on this thread. Very impressive:thumbsup:

Obviously you have not seen the lump on my forehead.

:banghead:

But I appreciate your support. These are areas I am working toward. On another thread I was recently chastized for a lack of charity, so I am attending to it.

Never pray for patience and charity, because you will get opportunities to “practice”.

 

[Hiskid1973]

Never pray for patience and charity, because you will get opportunities to “practice”.

Amen, sometimes even before the day is through…

 

[po18guy]

I believe OP’s problem may stem from a logical fallacy in the premise of the thread: that all spiritual events or occurrences must appear in scripture, or be affirmed by scripture. OP is apparently “bible alone” and may not realize how incomplete the bible is as a sole rule of faith.

 

[Big_Dummy]

Unless you have experienced this yourself or have talked to someone how has experienced this then your observation that these people appear asleep means nothing. :

Frankly, we have two recorded instances in scripture and based on those, Yes I can evaluate modern slain in the spirit claims by simply comparing them with Biblical accounts. Also, I have read what Pentecostal Theoligians ahve written on this topic too. So, yes I do have a vaild point. Also, I can understand the English language, among others and as such I can see the OP has yet to be proven via scripture.

In both accounts it was an Apostle, never the “average” Christian. Can anyone here who says they were slain in the Spirit lay claim to Apostleship? See, Acts 1 for qualifications.

And, the fact that they appear asleep does have merit because that is an observation. Based on the two cases in the NT, both people were aware of things “outside” their body, but not aware of their physical immediate surrroundings. Unless what you claim being slain in the spirit lines up with what we know to be genuine, then they are not the same thing occuring. If they are not the same thing occuring, then those two passages do not support your claims.

BTW, experience is the worse way of juding Truth of the matter.

2 Corinthians 12
1It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

2I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

4How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

5Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.

6For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.

7And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

8For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

9And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

10Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Revelation 1
1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

4John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

9I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

10I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

12And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

13And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

14His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

16And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

19Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

 

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Because of the negative connotation associated with being slain, some now refer to it as “resting in the Spirit”.

How do you think it compares to resting in the Spirit of Book of Hebrews?

Hebrews 4
1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

3For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

4For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

5And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

6Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

7Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

8For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

13Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

14Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

16Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

 

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Well said. Are we therefore asleep when we pray with our eyes closed? Of course not!

Ah, it is poorly said, because if one compares the real thing recorded in Rev 1 and II Cor 12 with what modern “expericences” claims then they don’t line up with scripture and are therefore not the same thing. And, if they are not the same thing then those experiences really do not have any basis in scripture.