O
oat_soda
Guest
chairty TOm,
can you show evidence of the apostasy?
can you show evidence of the apostasy?
- Status
T
TOmNossor
Guest
oat soda:
From History:
I guess I will need for you to tell me why the following things are not evidence of the apostasy.
From History:
- First popes did not know they were popes.
- Around 200AD as Irenaeus began to frame the primacy of Rome, Tertullian called this usurpation.
- Papacy built upon Peter, but Peter is at the head of the Antioch list of Bishops as well as Rome.
- Papacy built upon Peter, but papal authority different than Peterine authority. This is not dealt with as apologist throughout the ages point to Peter to establish the papacy.
- God interacts with humans through supernatural public revelation to the human head of his church during the Old Testament and New Testament, but God chooses to not interact this way with the post New Testament Catholic Church. Why?
- During the Old and New Testament God built his church from the earthly head down. Moses calling others. The incarnate Jesus Christ calling Apostles and Apostles calling Bishops and … History witness that the Catholic Church started with local Bishops. The office of Patriarch or a regionally prime Bishop developed out of these Bishops. Next the Pope was declared at the top of all the church. Why is this done differently?
- The Bible speaks of apostasy. (it is true that the Bible does not specify that the apostasy would be a total apostasy).
- The Visions of Hermas which were more used as scripture by the early church than some of the canonized New Testament books does speak of TOTAL APOSTASY. And it makes it clear that this apostasy was at hand and that a LESSER ORGANIZATION would continue forth.
- The covenantal nature of the gospel was replaced by sacramental practices. Covenants as two way agreements were the way of the Old Testament and the New Testament, but sacraments are more one way than two way.
- Supernatural aspects become less prevalent over time. No longer does the Bishop expect supernatural revelation to guide his local flock. The present Pope has even changed the requirements to declare someone a Saint.
T
TOmNossor
Guest
From the Restoration:
Charity, TOm
- The easiest to point to is the restoration of beliefs that existed in the early church. I can show reasonably well that the below things developed out of the Early Church. Were Joseph Smith to have had at his disposal the scholarship we have today, he could have chosen some of these, but much of the Early Church writings have been released during the 20th century.
-
Code:
Creation ex Nihilo is a 2nd century invention. It is embraced by all of Christianity (except LDS). Justin Martyr very clearly states that he believes in Creation ex Materia (and that he believes this is what Moses taught). -
Code:
Baptism by those without proper authority was a 3rd century change. St Cyprian defended (and two African local councils affirmed) the necessity of proper authority and beliefs for baptism, but St. Stephen won this discussion and no longer must one have a priesthood to baptize. In fact some heretical beliefs are fine (but others are not). Martin Luther suggested that if St. Cyprian was correct then there was no valid Christian priesthood/baptized on the earth. How close he was to the truth. -
Code:
The lack of subordination within the Godhead is a 4th century invention (as indeed is the formulation of the Trinity, but the lack of subordination is something that was never put forth before Athanasius). -
Code:
The presently understood idea of original sin was a 5th century invention from Augustine (the Eastern Orthodox have a belief much more similar to what I would suggest is an original belief). -
Code:
The heretical-ness of the statement, “men can become gods” is a development that did not really start until after the 5th century and seemed pretty complete 50-100 years ago, but non-LDS Christianity is back tracking today. The universal-ness of deification in the early church document (becoming increasingly available) is causing folks to search for a way to right these beliefs with monotheism of the Bible. (I embrace a deification that I consider is righted with the monotheism of the Bible too).
- Non-LDS scholarship is beginning to show that the pre-exile Judaism that Lehi would have departed from in 600BC not only sets the stage for the BOM, but lends support to some LDS ideas that previously seemed very foreign to Christianity.
- And then there is the BOM. I know you disagree, but I think the supernatural origins explanation is superior to the naturalistic origins explanation when it comes to accounting for all the data.
Charity, TOm
T
TOmNossor
Guest
Catholic-RCIA,
Good luck on your journey too. If you intention was to convince me by intellectual argument or Spiritual witness that the Catholic Church was the only reasonable solution to the question of which Church God heads, I guess you can view your efforts as a failure. What you have done is given me another example of an ex-Mormon who does not behave very negatively when interacting with LDS. That is a very good thing.
My goal of course was to present the CoJCoLDS as a reasonable solution not as the solution that you must align yourself to. I hope I had a small amount of success.
Again, good luck on your journey too.
Charity, TOm
T
tkdnick
Guest
HOLY COW!!! I’m gone for like 3 days and now there’s like 50 new posts!!!
What is your position regarding Gospel Principles? I always considered it very similar to the CCC, so when I read Gospel Principles, I believed I was reading official LDS positions. Is this true/not true? Sorry if I am going back in the thread too far. I’m just reading through all these new posts.
T
tkdnick
Guest
I’m curious - do you ever struggle? Almost all of the LDS members I have regular contact with are in the same “state of mind” all the time. I never see them stressed, troubled, down, confused, none of that. I can’t necessarily say that I see them as up or happy, just that they always seem the same. Almost…like a kid, like they aren’t connected to reality. I don’t mean that to sound mean or derogatory. It just confuses me.
C
catholic-rcia
Guest
I have to say Tom as I re-read your earlier post, after I thought about it all day I have the same feeling as I did as I read. I really was not sure if I could read it again. It reads a lot like Joseph Smith’s statement on the Church that Christ established, how he has been able to hold his church together better than Christ himself. . Forgive me… but I read pride all over it. The best advice I can give is that you need to be careful in your judgments of others, and keep searching for truth.
(If God is omni-benevolent why is there evil?)
There is evil because of us, desiring power apart from our sole God. God gave us free will, free will to make our own choices as created beings. We have a choice, we are not forced to turn to Him and give to him all Glory (all). . We can take what the serpent in the garden offers us, which we all do at times, and because of this we all die as God said we would. I mean we really die! Or we can choose to follow Christ back home to Gods Grace and live. The only way we get home is not by what we do to better ourselves, but rather by being clothed in the blood of the Lamb. By facing our falseness’ in order to see His light, so as to guide us back to God, and further ourselves from ourselves. To be transformed where our fallen nature dies so that we can rise in Christ.
“Jesus has many who love his heavenly kingdom, but few who bear his Cross, Many want consolation, but few desire adversity. Many are eager to share Jesus’ table, but few will join him in fasting. Everyone would be glad to rejoice with him, but not many are willing to suffer for him. Many will follow Jesus as far as the breaking of the bread, but few will stay to drink the cup of his passionate self -sacrifice. Many are inspired by his miracles, but few accept the shame of his Cross. Many love Jesus as long as they have no troubles. Many praise and bless him as long as they receive some comfort from him. But if Jesus hides himself, leaving them even for a brief moment they start complaining and become dejected.
But those who love Jesus for Jesus’ sake, and not for any special privileges, bless him in all difficulties and anguish, as well as in times of great comfort. Even if he should never comfort them again, they would continue to praise him. What astonishing power rests in the pure love of Jesus that is not corrupted with self-interest or self love! One term describes those who are always lovers of comfort: mercenary. Don’t they show themselves to be lovers of self rather than Jesus? All they care about is their own advantage, profit and glorification. Where can we find anyone who is willing to serve God for nothing? It is rare to discover someone so spiritual! Do you know anyone who is truly poor in spirit and free from dependence on any created thing?
Such a person “is worth far more than rubies!” (Prov 31:10) (Prov 31:10) “If one were to give all the wealth of his house for love, it would be utterly scorned” (Song of Songs 8:7). And if someone tries hard to make amends for all of his sins, he still has a long way to go. And if he is exceedingly virtuous and glowing with devotion, an essential ingredient is still lacking. What must he do? He must give up everything, especially himself, retaining no trace of selfishness. And when he has done everything required of him. He must consider it as nothing. He must not agree with others when they applaud him, but rather admit that he is actually an ordinary servant
** **…Thomas Kempis
God Bless
Rich
catholic-rcia.com
(If God is omni-benevolent why is there evil?)
There is evil because of us, desiring power apart from our sole God. God gave us free will, free will to make our own choices as created beings. We have a choice, we are not forced to turn to Him and give to him all Glory (all). . We can take what the serpent in the garden offers us, which we all do at times, and because of this we all die as God said we would. I mean we really die! Or we can choose to follow Christ back home to Gods Grace and live. The only way we get home is not by what we do to better ourselves, but rather by being clothed in the blood of the Lamb. By facing our falseness’ in order to see His light, so as to guide us back to God, and further ourselves from ourselves. To be transformed where our fallen nature dies so that we can rise in Christ.
“Jesus has many who love his heavenly kingdom, but few who bear his Cross, Many want consolation, but few desire adversity. Many are eager to share Jesus’ table, but few will join him in fasting. Everyone would be glad to rejoice with him, but not many are willing to suffer for him. Many will follow Jesus as far as the breaking of the bread, but few will stay to drink the cup of his passionate self -sacrifice. Many are inspired by his miracles, but few accept the shame of his Cross. Many love Jesus as long as they have no troubles. Many praise and bless him as long as they receive some comfort from him. But if Jesus hides himself, leaving them even for a brief moment they start complaining and become dejected.
But those who love Jesus for Jesus’ sake, and not for any special privileges, bless him in all difficulties and anguish, as well as in times of great comfort. Even if he should never comfort them again, they would continue to praise him. What astonishing power rests in the pure love of Jesus that is not corrupted with self-interest or self love! One term describes those who are always lovers of comfort: mercenary. Don’t they show themselves to be lovers of self rather than Jesus? All they care about is their own advantage, profit and glorification. Where can we find anyone who is willing to serve God for nothing? It is rare to discover someone so spiritual! Do you know anyone who is truly poor in spirit and free from dependence on any created thing?
Such a person “is worth far more than rubies!” (Prov 31:10) (Prov 31:10) “If one were to give all the wealth of his house for love, it would be utterly scorned” (Song of Songs 8:7). And if someone tries hard to make amends for all of his sins, he still has a long way to go. And if he is exceedingly virtuous and glowing with devotion, an essential ingredient is still lacking. What must he do? He must give up everything, especially himself, retaining no trace of selfishness. And when he has done everything required of him. He must consider it as nothing. He must not agree with others when they applaud him, but rather admit that he is actually an ordinary servant
** **…Thomas Kempis
God Bless
Rich
catholic-rcia.com
C
catholic-rcia
Guest
Food for thought.
In the Gospel today, the Pharisees despised sinners, but Jesus befriended sinners. It was not a question of a few kind words, or a gesture or two, on his part. He associated with sinners. He shared their food and drink. He did not just tolerate them. He welcomed them. In his presence they felt accepted and loved just as they were. It is not surprising then that ,many of them heard his message and changed their lives.
Jesus’ attitude to sinners was one of kindness and persuasion rather than condemnation and denunciation. He did not wait for sinners to repent before becoming their friend. No, he befriended them in their sinfulness. This is what scandalized the religious authorities: that he associated with sinners and rejoiced in their company while they were still sinners. Just as today some people see compassion for the criminal as a betrayal of the victim, so the Pharisees saw Jesus’ compassion for the sinner as a betrayal of the virtuous. How could he hold such a priesthood? God would not consult with such a people.
Jesus defense was very strait forward, he said he went where the need was greatest. In associating with sinners he was not condoning their situation, rather, he was trying to show them a new life. But he could not do this without associating with them and being sympathetic towards them. You never improve people by shunning them. In acting the way he did, Jesus revealed the mercy of God towards sinners, towards his Church on earth.
Jesus did not show a lack of moral principles by sitting at table and consorting with sinners. Rather, his humility was rich and deep enough to make contact, even in them, with that indestructible core of goodness which is found in all, and upon which the future was to be built. He put them in touch with that in them selves. His goodness evoked goodness in them.
It would be easier, safer, and more popular for him to go among the good. But he was not thinking of himself. He was thinking of others, and of the mission given him by his father. He did not come to call the virtuous but rather sinners to repentance.
In the Gospel today, the Pharisees despised sinners, but Jesus befriended sinners. It was not a question of a few kind words, or a gesture or two, on his part. He associated with sinners. He shared their food and drink. He did not just tolerate them. He welcomed them. In his presence they felt accepted and loved just as they were. It is not surprising then that ,many of them heard his message and changed their lives.
Jesus’ attitude to sinners was one of kindness and persuasion rather than condemnation and denunciation. He did not wait for sinners to repent before becoming their friend. No, he befriended them in their sinfulness. This is what scandalized the religious authorities: that he associated with sinners and rejoiced in their company while they were still sinners. Just as today some people see compassion for the criminal as a betrayal of the victim, so the Pharisees saw Jesus’ compassion for the sinner as a betrayal of the virtuous. How could he hold such a priesthood? God would not consult with such a people.
Jesus defense was very strait forward, he said he went where the need was greatest. In associating with sinners he was not condoning their situation, rather, he was trying to show them a new life. But he could not do this without associating with them and being sympathetic towards them. You never improve people by shunning them. In acting the way he did, Jesus revealed the mercy of God towards sinners, towards his Church on earth.
Jesus did not show a lack of moral principles by sitting at table and consorting with sinners. Rather, his humility was rich and deep enough to make contact, even in them, with that indestructible core of goodness which is found in all, and upon which the future was to be built. He put them in touch with that in them selves. His goodness evoked goodness in them.
It would be easier, safer, and more popular for him to go among the good. But he was not thinking of himself. He was thinking of others, and of the mission given him by his father. He did not come to call the virtuous but rather sinners to repentance.
T
TOmNossor
Guest
Tdnick,
Gospel Principles is produced through the Correlation Committee (I think that is what it is called now). It is a good place to learn about the CoJCoLDS. It in my opinion is not quite as binding as the CCC and of course then it is not as binding as Dogma. Part of this is because our scriptures are the final authority. Part of this is because LDS are more orthoprax than orthodox.
Charity, TOm
T
TOmNossor
Guest
Tdnick,
I personally do struggle. I can see the difference between my life and the life of Christ. I desire to emulate Christ and occasionally I confront myself with the huge difference between who I am and who He is. I try to remember that it is through Christ that I can bridge this gap, but I believe I betray my desire when I choose to rebel against God. I struggle with my rebellion. I suspect many LDS do struggle on the inside. My wife and family know I struggle. Those who I confide in know that I struggle with some things, but I am usually pretty upbeat.
I believe that the closer we get to Christ the more clear our view of Him becomes. I suspect that many people who I would like to emulate on the way to becoming like Christ see the void between who they are and who Christ is as greater than I see that void between me and Christ. This is because of their more clear view.
As Christ calls us to the summit that is His life, we get closer and closer. On occasion as we reach a peak in our journey a wonderful vista opens before us. The glory that we behold is truly amazing and there is much joy. But along with this new view we realize Christ beacons from a peak higher than we had previously supposed. We continue our journey towards Him, strengthened by Him, but aware of how much more we are called to be.
Charity, TOm
T
TOmNossor
Guest
Tdnick,
I personally do struggle. I can see the difference between my life and the life of Christ. I desire to emulate Christ and occasionally I confront myself with the huge difference between who I am and who He is. I try to remember that it is through Christ that I can bridge this gap, but I believe I betray my desire when I choose to rebel against God. I struggle with my rebellion. I suspect many LDS do struggle on the inside. My wife and family know I struggle. Those who I confide in know that I struggle with some things, but I am usually pretty upbeat.
I believe that the closer we get to Christ the more clear our view of Him becomes. I suspect that many people who I would like to emulate on the way to becoming like Christ see the void between who they are and who Christ is as greater than I see that void between me and Christ. This is because of their more clear view.
As Christ calls us to the summit that is His life, we get closer and closer. On occasion as we reach a peak in our journey a wonderful vista opens before us. The glory that we behold is truly amazing and there is much joy. But along with this new view we realize Christ beacons from a peak higher than we had previously supposed. We continue our journey towards Him, strengthened by Him, but aware of how much more we are called to be.
Charity, TOm
T
TOmNossor
Guest
Catholic-RCIA,
I want to respond to post #368 first.
Our ward occasionally quotes Dear Abby, “Church should be a hospital for sinners not a museum for saints.” (I have never heard her given credit for this statement, but I am pretty sure it came from her).
I was trying to suggest that the fruit evidence in the CoJCoLDS is the change it makes in the lives of people. There may be some truth to the fact that we ask a lot from our “members,” but all are welcome to attend.
I hope I have made it clear that I have a tremendous amount of respect for the Catholic Church, but one of your greatest failings is that many people can attend regularly and be changed very little by it. It is easy to be a C&E Catholic. It is easy to be 1/168th of a Catholic and 167/168th worldly. I believe God’s church should transform people.
Charity, TOm
I want to respond to post #368 first.
Our ward occasionally quotes Dear Abby, “Church should be a hospital for sinners not a museum for saints.” (I have never heard her given credit for this statement, but I am pretty sure it came from her).
I was trying to suggest that the fruit evidence in the CoJCoLDS is the change it makes in the lives of people. There may be some truth to the fact that we ask a lot from our “members,” but all are welcome to attend.
I hope I have made it clear that I have a tremendous amount of respect for the Catholic Church, but one of your greatest failings is that many people can attend regularly and be changed very little by it. It is easy to be a C&E Catholic. It is easy to be 1/168th of a Catholic and 167/168th worldly. I believe God’s church should transform people.
Charity, TOm
T
TOmNossor
Guest
Catholic-RCIA,
If you are interested you can read this LDS theodicy.
Joseph Smith and the Problem of Evil
I do not think any Creation ex Nihilo foundation is capable of explaining evil without doing two things:
If you are interested you can read this LDS theodicy.
Joseph Smith and the Problem of Evil
I do not think any Creation ex Nihilo foundation is capable of explaining evil without doing two things:
- Compromising God’s omnipotence as I believe Alvin Plantinga does in his much celebrated theodicy.
- And embracing Calvinistic double predestination.
T
TOmNossor
Guest
Catholic-RCIA,
In response to your post about pride.
If I am to find myself in hell, I suspect I will know that it is pride that brought me there. I may be more selfish than many. I have many other sinful characteristics as well. But I think if I am to have a sin that leads me to hell it will be pride. Long before I became a LDS I made a deal with the devil. I traded what most folks would consider a normal college alcohol habit (drunk 1x per month) for the pride I felt telling others I did not drink. My unhealthy relationship with alcohol (didn’t drink, visited alcohol, was proud) ended 5-6 years later when I became a member of the church.
Many suggest that the CoJCoLDS is built upon pride because of our belief in deification. I do not think this is symptomatic of pride (at least not my pride). I have thought about Calvinism. If I am non-elect (as many Calvinist would say because I believe in the WRONG Jesus), I do not care. I love God and am thankful for this life even if heaven is to be denied me because I am non-elect.
It might be a symptom of my pride that I desire that those on this board do not think my religion is ridiculous, insane, … I guess we are not called to be approved of by the world. Cardinal Newman even listed this as one of his seven characteristics.
It certainly is a symptom of my pride that I mention things like “Cardinal Newman even listed…” Some part of me takes great pride in being well read, learned, knowledgeable, … This is certainly a symptom of my pride.
But, what I fear is that my desire to understand, my desire to have an intellectually clear answer to the theodicy problem I mentioned (and you repeated), my conviction that the beliefs I embrace explain the world better and come closer to God, and many other things associated with how I intellectually engage the gospel could keep me trapped in a worshiping of what I make of God and not what God places before me. I can see the changes in my life as I have engaged the gospel utilizing the tools God has given me, but can I be sure that those tools will not prove inadequate if I rely upon what is within me too much?
I acknowledge my unworthiness. I acknowledge that I cannot do anything good without Christ. I acknowledge that those gifts I possess come from God anyway. I pray for forgiveness and I give thanks, but am I trapped in my own perception of my adequacy to know what path to walk.
In the end, I do not think you can answer this question. I have on occasion thought about it over the last few years in which I have intellectually engaged the gospel. Ultimately I recognize that I must have faith in God. I know that He knows me personally. I know that he knows who I am and what I desire. I have asked for bread and if I grasp at a rock I know it will not be God’s fault. But I can only choose as best I can choose; beyond this I must have faith that God will make up for my ever so huge failing. This gives me comfort.
Before I had a spiritual witness of the gospel, these ideas weighted much more heavily upon me. Today, I mostly walk in faith that God will make up the difference. I thought I would acknowledge what you said because there is likely some truth to it.
What would you have me do differently?
Are you sure that your concerns are not equally or more applicable to those who not only know that the Catholic Church is God’s church for them, but know that the Catholic Church is God’s church for me too?
Charity, TOm
In response to your post about pride.
If I am to find myself in hell, I suspect I will know that it is pride that brought me there. I may be more selfish than many. I have many other sinful characteristics as well. But I think if I am to have a sin that leads me to hell it will be pride. Long before I became a LDS I made a deal with the devil. I traded what most folks would consider a normal college alcohol habit (drunk 1x per month) for the pride I felt telling others I did not drink. My unhealthy relationship with alcohol (didn’t drink, visited alcohol, was proud) ended 5-6 years later when I became a member of the church.
Many suggest that the CoJCoLDS is built upon pride because of our belief in deification. I do not think this is symptomatic of pride (at least not my pride). I have thought about Calvinism. If I am non-elect (as many Calvinist would say because I believe in the WRONG Jesus), I do not care. I love God and am thankful for this life even if heaven is to be denied me because I am non-elect.
It might be a symptom of my pride that I desire that those on this board do not think my religion is ridiculous, insane, … I guess we are not called to be approved of by the world. Cardinal Newman even listed this as one of his seven characteristics.
It certainly is a symptom of my pride that I mention things like “Cardinal Newman even listed…” Some part of me takes great pride in being well read, learned, knowledgeable, … This is certainly a symptom of my pride.
But, what I fear is that my desire to understand, my desire to have an intellectually clear answer to the theodicy problem I mentioned (and you repeated), my conviction that the beliefs I embrace explain the world better and come closer to God, and many other things associated with how I intellectually engage the gospel could keep me trapped in a worshiping of what I make of God and not what God places before me. I can see the changes in my life as I have engaged the gospel utilizing the tools God has given me, but can I be sure that those tools will not prove inadequate if I rely upon what is within me too much?
I acknowledge my unworthiness. I acknowledge that I cannot do anything good without Christ. I acknowledge that those gifts I possess come from God anyway. I pray for forgiveness and I give thanks, but am I trapped in my own perception of my adequacy to know what path to walk.
In the end, I do not think you can answer this question. I have on occasion thought about it over the last few years in which I have intellectually engaged the gospel. Ultimately I recognize that I must have faith in God. I know that He knows me personally. I know that he knows who I am and what I desire. I have asked for bread and if I grasp at a rock I know it will not be God’s fault. But I can only choose as best I can choose; beyond this I must have faith that God will make up for my ever so huge failing. This gives me comfort.
Before I had a spiritual witness of the gospel, these ideas weighted much more heavily upon me. Today, I mostly walk in faith that God will make up the difference. I thought I would acknowledge what you said because there is likely some truth to it.
What would you have me do differently?
Are you sure that your concerns are not equally or more applicable to those who not only know that the Catholic Church is God’s church for them, but know that the Catholic Church is God’s church for me too?
Charity, TOm
T
tkdnick
Guest
So is it safe for me to assume that when I read Gospel Principles I am reading “authorized” LDS beliefs?
I’m sure you have done this already, but I can’t remember, so could you please explain the difference between orthoprax and orthdox?
T
TOmNossor
Guest
I think that is pretty fair to say. To the extent that there is orthodoxy within the CoJCoLDS beliefs developed through understanding Gospel Principles would be within orthodoxy.
“Orthoprax” and “Orthopraxy” are me playing a little fast and loose with language.
“Ortho-“ is straight. In Orthodoxy it means straightness or correctness of beliefs.
“-Prax” is action. In Orthopraxy it is intended to mean correctness of action or practice.
It seems that this will or has been accepted in some circles, but I doubt it is in an abridged dictionary (and perhaps not in other dictionaries).
Charity, TOm
T
tkdnick
Guest
TOmNossor said:
So then the ideal should be to be an Orthodox Orthopraxist
C
catholic-rcia
Guest
“I believe God’s church should transform people”
“It might be a symptom of my pride that I desire that those on this board do not think my religion is ridiculous, insane”
I cannot say it any other way and please do not take offence, If we were face to face I know all would be ok, but I would say insane and insensitive. Insane would be making Lucifer out to be Christ’s brother as this is repulsive to Orthodox Christians who understand through Baptism, and being Clothed in the blood of the Lamb. Or having me when I was eight years old watch a video that portrayed Christians as witches in a very dark light.
But Tom, you speak much more like a Christian who believes that Christ is God the Son. And I believe that it is he working in you.
Insensitive would be proclaiming that all Christians fell into Apostasy and have been groping around in darkness for 1,700 years. You are well aware of the words used.
Insensitive would be saying: “Church should be a hospital for sinners not a museum for saints.”
Because we believe in the Holy Trinity and the one body of Christ it is like the unknown author is saying:
“Church should be a hospital for sinners not a museum for the body of Christ.”
Because the Saints are part of the Body. God is not God of the dead, he is God of the living weather on earth or in heaven. You say you were once Catholic, you know this is our way. The Mass is a heavenly banquet.
Insensitive would be claiming that your Church best transforms people
It is Christ that transforms people when He becomes their greatest need. I went to the Catholic Church for 18 years before I realized where I was. I always used to say that Catholics don’t welcome the way they should. But then I was also at one time in a multi level marketing program, among people who had a great stake in being nice. I was trained to be nice as to grow my line and make more money. This group of people, looking back was the friendliest people I have ever been around. At least until the program toppled. Have not heard from any of those people in the last 10 years. Accept for my LDS brother in law who got my father into the program who in turn got me into it.
Catholics are just themselves. But when I finally ended up in their homes, I found that I was stereotyping them. I know have several more brothers and sisters who I can speak about Christ any time I desire. This is what I like most about other Catholics. When we gather we usually speak about Jesus. Most LDS here that I speak to, that I work with tell me that I am way to deep for them. But with my Catholic family I find myself very shallow at times compared to theo ones who have been Catholic all of their lives. We are speaking about some real deep, loving, caring people here. Again I would warnb you to be careful in your judgment. But that is assuming that my judgment of people is better.
I would think that if I were to become LDS again, I would have plenty of opportunities to shine brightly. I do miss that in my Catholic Church, wonder why? With age I have found that all that glitters is not gold. I thought it a bit odd that I was told to be nice to convert. It made it fake when it did not have to be. Like telling a lie when the truth would have been good enough.
Continued____
“It might be a symptom of my pride that I desire that those on this board do not think my religion is ridiculous, insane”
I cannot say it any other way and please do not take offence, If we were face to face I know all would be ok, but I would say insane and insensitive. Insane would be making Lucifer out to be Christ’s brother as this is repulsive to Orthodox Christians who understand through Baptism, and being Clothed in the blood of the Lamb. Or having me when I was eight years old watch a video that portrayed Christians as witches in a very dark light.
But Tom, you speak much more like a Christian who believes that Christ is God the Son. And I believe that it is he working in you.
Insensitive would be proclaiming that all Christians fell into Apostasy and have been groping around in darkness for 1,700 years. You are well aware of the words used.
Insensitive would be saying: “Church should be a hospital for sinners not a museum for saints.”
Because we believe in the Holy Trinity and the one body of Christ it is like the unknown author is saying:
“Church should be a hospital for sinners not a museum for the body of Christ.”
Because the Saints are part of the Body. God is not God of the dead, he is God of the living weather on earth or in heaven. You say you were once Catholic, you know this is our way. The Mass is a heavenly banquet.
Insensitive would be claiming that your Church best transforms people
It is Christ that transforms people when He becomes their greatest need. I went to the Catholic Church for 18 years before I realized where I was. I always used to say that Catholics don’t welcome the way they should. But then I was also at one time in a multi level marketing program, among people who had a great stake in being nice. I was trained to be nice as to grow my line and make more money. This group of people, looking back was the friendliest people I have ever been around. At least until the program toppled. Have not heard from any of those people in the last 10 years. Accept for my LDS brother in law who got my father into the program who in turn got me into it.
Catholics are just themselves. But when I finally ended up in their homes, I found that I was stereotyping them. I know have several more brothers and sisters who I can speak about Christ any time I desire. This is what I like most about other Catholics. When we gather we usually speak about Jesus. Most LDS here that I speak to, that I work with tell me that I am way to deep for them. But with my Catholic family I find myself very shallow at times compared to theo ones who have been Catholic all of their lives. We are speaking about some real deep, loving, caring people here. Again I would warnb you to be careful in your judgment. But that is assuming that my judgment of people is better.
I would think that if I were to become LDS again, I would have plenty of opportunities to shine brightly. I do miss that in my Catholic Church, wonder why? With age I have found that all that glitters is not gold. I thought it a bit odd that I was told to be nice to convert. It made it fake when it did not have to be. Like telling a lie when the truth would have been good enough.
Continued____
C
catholic-rcia
Guest
Continued___
I once had a friend who had a brother who was a heroin addict. His parents kept bringing him home over and over again. But he would steel from them in many ways and then leave for a while longer. One day at 32 he stole their wedding rings as they slept. When his parents found out what had happened they went in search of Him. His name was Rick.
When they found him they brought him back home and cared for him some more. Years later he finally stayed in the drug program, and with his will and love from those who stuck by him he fought off his addiction. Today he is doing fine. It was a few years later that I was speaking to my friend Mike, Ricks younger brother. I asked Mike, how did your parents ever put up with that? He told me that is was because of their faith. I asked him what Faith? He told me that they were Catholic. This would not have meant a lot to me years before. But since I was already attending Mass with my wife, it stuck. These are the type of people I share my life with. These are the type of people that you say need transforming. Anyway Tom stick around. This has all been pretty neat stuff.
You’re a good man
Rich
One more thing that I must add. I could never focus on the Parishioners or the Priest or the Sisters, or even the Saints in my Church and use their short comings as a reason to leave the Church. I would have left when the Church Scandal was being exposed. My pride would have seen me go. But my focus in on Christ in the Church. It is He that I go for. “The Eucharist” All the others are just family. like them or leave them. For the most part I love them all. I have never in my life felt more welcome by a people who once overlooked me as I walked out the door. But then I am not the center of their universe either.
I once had a friend who had a brother who was a heroin addict. His parents kept bringing him home over and over again. But he would steel from them in many ways and then leave for a while longer. One day at 32 he stole their wedding rings as they slept. When his parents found out what had happened they went in search of Him. His name was Rick.
When they found him they brought him back home and cared for him some more. Years later he finally stayed in the drug program, and with his will and love from those who stuck by him he fought off his addiction. Today he is doing fine. It was a few years later that I was speaking to my friend Mike, Ricks younger brother. I asked Mike, how did your parents ever put up with that? He told me that is was because of their faith. I asked him what Faith? He told me that they were Catholic. This would not have meant a lot to me years before. But since I was already attending Mass with my wife, it stuck. These are the type of people I share my life with. These are the type of people that you say need transforming. Anyway Tom stick around. This has all been pretty neat stuff.
You’re a good man
Rich
One more thing that I must add. I could never focus on the Parishioners or the Priest or the Sisters, or even the Saints in my Church and use their short comings as a reason to leave the Church. I would have left when the Church Scandal was being exposed. My pride would have seen me go. But my focus in on Christ in the Church. It is He that I go for. “The Eucharist” All the others are just family. like them or leave them. For the most part I love them all. I have never in my life felt more welcome by a people who once overlooked me as I walked out the door. But then I am not the center of their universe either.
T
tkdnick
Guest
TOmNossor said:
So wait, are you saying that LDS have more right action/practice than right belief?
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