Smithsonian statement on Book of Mormon

[oat_soda]

First popes did not know they were popes.
Around 200AD as Irenaeus began to frame the primacy of Rome, Tertullian called this usurpation.

Tom, these all need to be addressed seperately. these are the same claims protestants use against catholicism and are not evidence of apostacy. evidence for apostacy would be teachings we find in the early church which were later dismissed like in mormonism w/polygamy and racism in the priesthood. lets start a new thread just on the first one and address these things one at a time.

 

[FCEGM]

Rich, what you’ve written here reminded me very much of one of my favorite passages from Frank Sheed’s Theology for Beginners:

“It is the especial meaning of the Church that in it Our Lord unites men to Himself through humanity – not through some ideal humanity, but through the humanity, good, bad, and indifferent that actually exists. As Matthew Arnold notes, where other religions suggest a special type of man, Catholics suggest ‘all the pell mell of the men and women of Shakespeare’s plays. There is a certain kind of spiritual man who finds all this intolerable. His every instinct is revolted at the thought of Christ’s working in and through, and of himself being sanctified in and through, this mixed crow of human beings. The hot smell of humanity is too strong for him. He would have his own direct relation with God, excluding the turbulence of humanity; or he would make his own choice of the men he feels God would choose. But this is preciousness and folly. It is as though the man Christ healed by the touch of His spittle had asked to be healed some other way – he was a refined man, perhaps, brought up to regard spittle as vulgar, or even unhygienic. One cannot be thus delicate about the Gifts of God.’”

 

[catholic-rcia]

Thank you for this.
These things are the pearls of great price. I love this stuff!

“It is the especial meaning of the Church that in it Our Lord unites men to Himself through humanity – not through some ideal humanity, but through the humanity, good, bad, and indifferent that actually exists. As Matthew Arnold notes, where other religions suggest a special type of man, Catholics suggest ‘all the pell mell of the men and women of Shakespeare’s plays. There is a certain kind of spiritual man who finds all this intolerable. His every instinct is revolted at the thought of Christ’s working in and through, and of himself being sanctified in and through, this mixed crow of human beings. The hot smell of humanity is too strong for him. He would have his own direct relation with God, excluding the turbulence of humanity; or he would make his own choice of the men he feels God would choose. But this is preciousness and folly. It is as though the man Christ healed by the touch of His spittle had asked to be healed some other way – he was a refined man, perhaps, brought up to regard spittle as vulgar, or even unhygienic. One cannot be thus delicate about the Gifts of God.’”

 

[catholic-rcia]

Here is another

Once there was a very holy abbot called Anastasius. In fact, he was considered a saint by his fellow desert monks. One day when a monk by the name of James sinned and was told to leave the community. Anastasius got up and walked out with him, saying: “I to am a sinner.” James however, did not reform. Years later he came to visit Anastasius as he was saying his evening prayer.
“Don’t worry,” Anastasius replied, “ My rule is to receive you with hospitality.”
And he gave him food and lodging for the night. Anastasius had an old copy of the Bible which was worth quit a bit of money. Seeing the book, James took it with him when he was leaving the next morning. When Anastasius realized that he had stolen the book, he did not follow him. Fearing that he might only make him add the sin of perjury to that of theft, James went to a nearby merchant to sell the book, asking a high price.

“Give me the book for a little while so that I can find out whether it’s worth that much,” the merchant said.
He took it to Anastasius. Anastasius took one look at it and said. “Yes this is a splendid book. In fact it’s worth much more.” The buyer came back and told the thief what Anastasius had said.

Stunned he asked, “ Was that all he said? Did he make no other remarks?”

“No,” said the merchant, “he did not say another word.”

On hearing this James was deeply moved, and said, “I have changed my mind. I don’t want to sell the book after all.” And he hastened back to Anastasius and, with tears in his eyes, gave him back the book and begged for his forgiveness. Anastasius received him with the same kindness as before.

He simply said, “ I forgive you. Keep the book. Read a little from it each day, and pray to Christ who received sinners like us, and brought them back to Gods love and friendship. Now go in peace.

His fellow monks were surprised to see him wasting his time on someone like James, but he said, “Tell me, if your robe is torn, will you throw it away?” And they replied, “No, we will mend it and put it back on.” Then he said, “If you take such care of your robe, will not God be merciful to one who bears his image?”

The kindness of Anastasius paid off. James changed his life. He returned to the life of a monk and became known for his goodness and holiness.

 

[TOmNossor]

Catholic_RCIA:

Insensitive would be saying: “Church should be a hospital for sinners not a museum for saints.”

TOm:

I must apologize for this. I did not communicate well.

I claimed that the average LDS witnesses the transforming power of Christ more often and more fully than the average Catholic.

You responded that Catholics love sinners and Jesus fellowshipped with sinners.

I quoted the above to suggest that we recognize that we must do this. The “museum for saints” was a comment associated with a LDS ward that might look down upon the member who comes to church smelling of tobacco. In the ideal we are not like this, and in my ward we consciously try to not do such things. I was not referring to the Catholic Church (nor was Dear Abby I am pretty sure).

I am sorry.

Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

I really was not offended, but I hope you will not mind if I address why I think your positions are derived from a very one-sided view of these questions.

Catholic_RCIA:

Insane would be making Lucifer out to be Christ’s brother as this is repulsive to Orthodox Christians…

TOm:

First, I have almost never seen a LDS come to any board and proclaim Christ is the brother of Lucifer. This is a component of our understanding of the foundation of God’s plan, but one that is virtually always brought up by critics who wish to make us sound weird or offensive. It is the critics who highlight this component; LDS do not dwell on this in any way.

Second, as I have alluded to and as I have linked you to, I find the idea of Creation ex Nihilo to demand that God is the author of evil. I personally believe that the LDS creation concepts are compatible with a non-arbitrary omnibenevolent God, but that NO OTHER creation concept results in evil not being authored solely by God. This is a negative for me, and it is part of what makes the LDS gospel more inline with God as I know Him. But I do not think it is productive to be offended, and as I mentioned above, I could accept Creation ex Nihilo, if I became convinced intellectually and spiritually of the truthfulness of the Catholic Church.

Lastly, Lactantius of the late third early fourth century, was fully Catholic and he taught that Jesus Christ and Lucifer were brothers. Nobody became offended or excommunicated him. He was never made a Saint, but he is one of the Latin ECF.

Catholic_RCIA:

Or having me when I was eight years old watch a video that portrayed Christians as witches in a very dark light.

TOm:

That is horrible. I have not experiences something so ugly as this, but I do when I see it which is occasionally correct people who mischaracterize other religions.

Catholic_RCIA:

But Tom, you speak much more like a Christian who believes that Christ is God the Son. And I believe that it is he working in you.

TOm:

I speak as I am (or rather as I hope to be because I control my words better than my actions). I am not trying to deceive you, Christ is working in my life. He is working in my life and the CoJCoLDS is one of the avenues through which Christ chooses to call me to Him. Ten years from now if I am a LDS will you think your observations are flawed or that I somehow turned from the light? I personally think I will be a LDS and that your observation is correct. Christ is God the Son!

Catholic_RCIA:

Insensitive would be proclaiming that all Christians fell into Apostasy and have been groping around in darkness for 1,700 years. You are well aware of the words used.

TOm:

I am aware of the words used. I personally believe the canonized words came from God, but there are a few things associated with this concern of yours.

Creeds are an abomination and those professors who make them are at fault. I suggest that this cannot be a wholesale condemnation of the teachings of creeds. After all, Christ is God the Son and He was born of the Virgin Mary and… I have suggested for quite some time that the actions of the Council of Nicea where Arius’ case was lost from the first time he spoke, but the council continued in order to divine a creedal statement in which Arius could be damned as a heretic is/was in fact the abominable aspect of creedal Christianity. One should embrace what is inspired of God and not try to define past this so as to schism.

Also, “No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church” is surely as offensive to all but Catholics. I am well aware of how this has been defined/developed during VII, but again it is easy to be a critic and take offence pre/post VII.

And lastly as above, we can choose to hang our hats on things that sound offensive to us, or we can compare best to best.
cont…

 

[TOmNossor]

Concerning the creeds are an abomination statement:
The man who heard God speak those words also said the following, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Six 1843–44, p.313:
If I esteem mankind to be in error, shall I bear them down? No. I will lift them up, and in their own way too, if I cannot persuade them my way is better; and I will not seek to compel any man to believe as I do, only by the force of reasoning, for truth will cut its own way. Do you believe in Jesus Christ and the Gospel of salvation which he revealed? So do I. Christians should cease wrangling and contending with each other, and cultivate the principles of union and friendship in their midst; and they will do it before the millennium can be ushered in and Christ takes possession of His kingdom.

Catholic_RCIA:

Insensitive would be claiming that your Church best transforms people

TOm:

I do not understand what you have been saying to me when you have pointed to the extraordinarily lives of Saints and other Catholics. When you say that you get together and talk of Christ with Catholics but LDS think you are a bit off. I am offering my observation and not trying to be insensitive. I have truly observed this.

Catholic_RCIA:

It is Christ that transforms people when He becomes their greatest need.

TOm:

And of course I agree with this. I suggest that the question we are asking is which church more effectively teaches of Christ, more effectively brings Christ into the hearts and lives of its members, more effectively carries forth the plan God has for His children?

While the correctness of the teachings is certainly at the heart of such a question, we can only observe this peripherally. How do the teachings explain the world around us? How do the teaching line up with themselves, are they coherent and not internally conflicting? How do the teachings line up with what God has revealed to us personally? And how do the teachings affect the lives of those who receive them?

I recognize that there are stereotypes about Catholics but also about LDS. My father was told by Catholics that he would be disowned by me after I became a LDS, but I am in his Catholic house multiple times every month. One of the things that hopefully comes of discussions like ours is that we will not mischaracterize each other. (A LDS can be speak like a Christian because LDS ARE CHRISTIANS). I do have a general observation associated with my time in the Catholic Church, but I have memories of those extraordinary folks too. The ex-SEAL Deacon who taught my First Communion classes, the youth group leaders, and the priest who still says mass every week to my parents all have a place in my heart. I remember raising money to build our church building so we could move out of the school cafeteria. These are wonderful things and I am known for defending the Catholic Church in my ward. That does not change the fact that I cannot be both a LDS and a Catholic. Perhaps through our conversation you will know that while I cannot be both a LDS and a Catholic, I can be a LDS and a Christian.

cont…

 

[TOmNossor]

Catholic_RCIA:

I thought it a bit odd that I was told to be nice to convert.

TOm:

I have specifically stressed that when you lift someone up you serve them even if they do not become a LDS. There is certainly some of what you speak of, and it is wrong.

When you truly know you have something the world desperately needs, you try to share it with them. When you forget that they need your love as well as the true gospel, you have missed an important aspect of what Christ taught us.

Catholic_RCIA:

You’re a good man

TOm:

Thank you, and so are you. I hope that one of the results of our conversation is a greater understanding of each other.

I spoke with the Stake President about a year ago and he explained to me that my Catholic friend would become a LDS. I did not and do not believe he is necessarily correct. I asked, but what if he died today? God has solutions for these things we do not understand. And both the Catholic and the CoJCoLDS have “invisible church” concepts.

Catholic_RCIA:

One more thing that I must add. I could never focus on the Parishioners or the Priest or the Sisters, or even the Saints in my Church and use their short comings as a reason to leave the Church.

TOm:

Nor should you. I was young and stupid when I did this.

I have looked into this question extensively since then, and reached the same conclusion for different reasons.

Charity, TOm

 

[catholic-rcia]

DearTom,
I know what you mean about the smelling of tobacco. But keep in mind that self righteousness does not have a smell but it to can also be detected. But whether it is Tobacco, alcoholism, or self righteousness all our fallen equally, all loved equally in Gods Church. As to the quote you used I understand that you did not use it in the way I presumed. But I was told by a very prominent LDS figure here in Utah that we do worship dead Saints, so I was letting past experience come in to my thinking.

I drive one who is mentally ill to church every now and then. I happen to be picking him up this Sunday. He calls and says without saying anything else…”Can I go to church with you?” . Honestly inside I am thinking that I have to drive all that way to pick him up, and that I will not be with my wife and children on the way to church because we do not have enough room. Once, fallen as I am I did not return his call. Thank God for confession, I have been relieved of that burden. My pride would have me thinking that I am helping Bob. But come on Tom, as you see Bob is helping me overcome myself. God can pick up so many broken pieces and have them back together again in a single lifetime.

Bob smokes and drinks, sometimes he drinks to much. He always smells like smoke. Dirty smoke! His family has tried to help him over and over again to no avail as of yet. I figure he hears enough about this so I do not go there. I let it go so to speak. It makes for a certain sanctuary for Bob. I met him when he was homeless several years back. In this matter I have come to the conclusion that it is Christ calling, asking for a ride to Church so that Bob can be with him. How could I ever say no? My fallen nature does not want to go out of its way and this is honesty, it is who I am. The sad part is that God does not need me to pick Bob up because if I did not He would find another ride. But I choose to do it out of service to Him. Some look at me and say, oh thanks for bringing Robert to Church. But I know better! I am not saying that I get nothing out of this, as I do. I get to work for God!!! And that is pretty damn special wouldn’t you say?

There was a time that I would have eaten up those complements up. But as it is now I have come to hate them. I guess you might say that I have gone on a strict diet. In that I have come to love Christ more and yes, even Robert. I would venture to say that we probably do have more in our Church that may smell of tobacco and Alcohol. I know that in Salt Lake City on any given day, just a mile or so above the Mormon Temple you will find homeless people sleeping on the pews, or just trying to stay warm. I remember visiting the Cathedral a few years back to pray. As I was walking out I noticed a homeless women sitting at the back of the pews with a shopping cart. She was praying softly out loud, it filled the whole Chapel. As I walked out the doors a voice said “go back and give her what you have in your wallet” At first I ignored this voice and then I thought “how terrible! God is speaking to you, asking you to do this and you pretend as if you do not hear”. You see the closer you get to God the more demanding he becomes. Tears began to wallow up and I made the turn back.

As I approached the doors I though to my self, “I need some money for lunch, I can’t give it all” I will just give her ten and keep the other. The voice told me that I had food at home. I walked up to this women, Christ, not me gave her twenty dollars. She looked at me and said “praise God, she told me that she was praying that someone would give her some money as she was to shy to ask, that she was hungry. She hugged me, Christ hugged me and I walked on. It was me who smelled on that day. But God being God used me anyway to deliver a gift from Him to her.

The only problem I have with Catholics is that they are to scared to share all the wonderful things they do in the lives of others in fear of seeming like they want the credit. What really makes the silence is that they know they want some of it as well. It is amazing, the silence in these matters. You would almost think that they are a cold kind of people. But one must be very careful in such judgments of others. Including myself of course.

 

[TOmNossor]

tkdnick:

So wait, are you saying that LDS have more right action/practice than right belief?

Mostly yes, that is what I am saying.

To be an active faithful LDS you sustain the prophet, and try to do things associated with your church calling (job) and other tasks.

This is not to be misconstrued with believing that we earn our salvation. I am merely suggesting that orthodoxy of belief is the test for ones Catholicity and in many ways orthopraxy of ones practice is the test for ones LDS-ness.

It is also true that there are things that we must believe to receive a temple recommend or to …

Protestants would say, ““In the essentials: unity, in the non-essentials: diversity, and in all things: charity?” I like this statement, but I am not convinced it creates “one church.” I think a combination of this and a healthy does of orthopraxy creates “one church.”

Charity, TOm

 

[catholic-rcia]

Also, “No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church” is surely as offensive to all but Catholics.

There was a time that I believed this, it was offensive to me as well, in the context you have presented it.

This would be said by those who do not accept that the Catholic Church is the very Body of Christ. It is the Apostolic Church established by Christ. No one would ever be refused entrance who can hear the voice of the Shepard and say yes to Him. As long as one is willing to listen to Him, to be willing to come into Him in order to have life.

Is there salvation outside of Christ? Of course there is not. He is the only way.

Christ is our Church, as in the Body of Christ. It is because of this Church that you can even utter the Name of Jesus. If you are saved it will be because of Christ, the Catholic Church is the Body of Christ. He will not refuse those whom are part of Himself. He overflows to all orthodox Christian sects, and even to those who have not yet professed Him or even know Him. .

When one dies who has never known Christ body will he be condemned to hell? Of Course not. When a Mormon dies will he be condemned for not being Catholic? Of course not. The door to Trinity will be made available to all. But one can turn from this door as did our first parents. I believe that one can be so immersed into self, that one can in the end fall into themselves and yes, die. This is the great battle here on earth. To prepare our hearts and minds to enable us to hear the Shepherds voice. The Thief came to realize the size and measure of Christ so he decided to turn turn to Him. We being this theif can also call upon the name of Christ and be saved. There is a time when each of us come face to face with Him. No one person is deprived of this viewing.

 

[chb03c]

Whats interesting about mormanism is there are several aspects of the religon that is similar to Gnosticism. There are some definate parallels in these two religons. Gnosticism was a religon that was similar and differant from Christianity. The Gnostic religon was most likely deemed heiretical by the apostles because the writtings that were made from the Gnostics were not widely accepted.

 

[catholic-rcia]

“So wait, are you saying that LDS have more right action/practice than right belief?”

Dear Tom,

For some Jews at the time of Christ Jesus broke many of their sacred laws. They did not see Him as the Law itself. They certainly could not see Him as God. Not washing His hands before a meal, picking grain on Sunday, spending all of His time with sinners, etc…They held the Law in to high of an esteem overlooking Him and His message of salvation through His blood.

It was the Prodigals that received Jesus’ message. While he was walking to His crucifixion many where in their homes practicing the laws of their faith diligently, but the Cross was not to be part of these laws. Why would they need to be a part of such perceived weakness?. To them Jesus was going to His death because he deserved it, because he broke their laws in proclaiming that he was God. The ones that lined the path were the curious, the left behind. Many that lined the path were those looking for Hope beyond the laws because they new they could not be upheld. Others were there to take part in the very scourging that was to set them free. There were also those that did not quite fit in, those that were themselves looked down upon by a higher, more pure authority. An authoritative body each presenting their own loyalty to the Laws given to Moses. Jesus was not accepted by them because he showed them, by just being Him, that they themselves could not follow these laws. They missed the most important law. To love others as God loves them. Jesus was a threat to them and to these laws.

Jesus is so contrary to the ways of the world. As you get to know Him better, you see these ways more clearly. This begins to be revealed, clearing the path to salvation. You see this in the way those around you act, you begin to see yourself as them, you don’t want to live like this anymore. Although you have come to love them you move on because of Christ. You pick up your Cross and bear this awesome burden.

 

[TOmNossor]

oat soda:

Tom, these all need to be addressed seperately. these are the same claims protestants use against catholicism and are not evidence of apostacy. evidence for apostacy would be teachings we find in the early church which were later dismissed like in mormonism w/polygamy and racism in the priesthood. lets start a new thread just on the first one and address these things one at a time.

Oat Soda,

If you would like to address separate things, I can try to devote some time to it. If you start a new thread you will likely attract new attention where you could pursue this here without doing so. But it is your choice.

One thing you may be doing is applying a Catholic definition to the term apostasy. A Catholic who embraces wrong ideas is heretical. A Catholic who rejects Christ is apostate.

When LDS use the term apostasy we do not mean that Christ was rejected by the Catholic Church. We mean that the authority of the priesthood is absent from the Catholic Church. Without this authority there have been some heretical beliefs (as I suggested in post #363), but no whole scale abandonment of Jesus Christ.

So when I point to authority type things I am addressing the apostasy I am claiming.

Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

catholic-rcia:

This would be said by those who do not accept that the Catholic Church is the very Body of Christ. It is the ApostolicChurch established by Christ. No one would ever be refused entrance who can hear the voice of the Shepard and say yes to Him. As long as one is willing to listen to Him, to be willing to come into Him in order to have life.

Is there salvation outside of Christ? Of course there is not. He is the only way.

Christ is our Church, as in the Body of Christ. It is because of this Church that you can even utter the Name of Jesus. If you are saved it will be because of Christ, the Catholic Church is the Body of Christ. He will not refuse those whom are part of Himself. He overflows to all orthodox Christian sects, and even to those who have not yet professed Him or even know Him. .

When one dies who has never known Christ body will he be condemned to hell? Of Course not. When a Mormon dies will he be condemned for not being Catholic? Of course not. The door to Trinity will be made available to all. But one can turn from this door as did our first parents. I believe that one can be so immersed into self, that one can in the end fall into themselves and yes, die. This is the great battle here on earth. To prepare our hearts and minds to enable us to hear the Shepherds voice. The Thief came to realize the size and measure of Christ so he decided to turn turn to Him. We being this theif can also call upon the name of Christ and be saved. There is a time when each of us come face to face with Him. No one person is deprived of this viewing.

Catholic-RCIA,

I have a few thoughts on this post as well. Shocking isn’t it.

First, the things you say about the Catholic Church are spoken from the perspective of one who believes the Catholic Church is Christ’s “ONE true church.” If I am not to be offended by this concept when you speak as you have, I do not see how you can be offended when I speak of my church as Christ’s true church. In fact, I am less dogmatic about it than you are.

Next, when you say, “a Mormon will not be condemned for not being a Catholic.” I assume you mean that LDS may be found “invincibly ignorant” and/or availed of the “Baptism of Desire,” and/or you see some hope for the validity of the LDS Baptism despite the ruling (not infallible) by the Catholic Church upon LDS Baptism (I doubt this last one is what you mean).

While your presentation of this seems to be in alignment with aspects of Vatican II, it is easier to hold such views as a LDS than it is as a Catholic. LDS are so committed to such things that they carry our vicarious ordinances in the hopes that the person who was not visibly aligned with Christ at death will find the truth when given a “fair and just opportunity” to align with Christ (having not received such an opportunity before death). As a LDS we do not know who has received a “fair and just opportunity,” nor who will accept said opportunity so we perform vicarious ordinances for saint and sinner.

Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

chb03c:

Whats interesting about mormanism is there are several aspects of the religon that is similar to Gnosticism. There are some definate parallels in these two religons. Gnosticism was a religon that was similar and differant from Christianity. The Gnostic religon was most likely deemed heiretical by the apostles because the writtings that were made from the Gnostics were not widely accepted.

Hello chb03c.

Gnostic parallels do certainly exist. It is unlikely that Joseph Smith was well versed on the beliefs of Gnosticism so the existence of these parallels is quite peculiar.

In addition to this, if one looks at early Christianity without accepting that the orthodoxy that developed was developed by the guidance of God, “heretical” beliefs become more interesting towards understanding what Christians during the 1st century though Christ taught.

Margaret Barker, a Methodist minister and well respected Old Testament scholar, uses the beliefs of the Gnostics, among many other things to recreate what she calls the Older Testament. It is her position that pre-exilic Judaism was integrally tied to Christianity. She develops these ideas using the Bible (LXX, MT, and DSS), ancient Jewish works, Jewish and Christian works from the first few centuries after Christ, and some Gnostic works. Here work has had some impact on LDS apologetics and I suspect it will have a great deal more effect as she becomes more popular.

As a disclaimer, there are clearly gnostic beliefs that have no place in the CoJCoLDS.

Charity, TOm

 

[Malachi4U]

Gods peace be with you theophilus Tom,

A few questions I have for you from my BOM (Book of Mormon).

Where is Baptism of the dead found?

If the Bible is in the fullness of Gods word then why read the BOM? Do we even need the BOM? Can we become a god of our own Celestial planet without ever reading the BOM?

Where is polygamy in the BOM?

Where is becomming a god in the BOM?

Where is eternal marriage in the BOM?

I’ll stop there as I don’t want to shotgun you with questions. Start a new thread if you like to explain questions we have. So many questions and so little time.

A prisoner of Christ,

PS, I love having several copies of the BOM in my personnal library. Yes I do read from the 4 books so I can learn the truth about Mormon opinions, at least the version hey had at the time of printing. I wish my wife hadn’t tossed out my old BOM several years ago before the LDS church changed it to what is today.

 

[mormon_fool]

Malachi4U:

Where is Baptism of the dead found?.

Not in the BOM. I hope people don’t mind if I cut in here.

If the Bible is in the fullness of Gods word then why read the BOM?

Exactly. We (mormons, though everyone is invited) read the BOM because it shows that the Bible does not contain the fullness of God’s word. I would say a major purpose of the BoM is that God hasn’t ceased delivering his words.

The Bible does contain the fullness of the Gospel, if by Gospel we mean the essential “Good Tidings” of Christ. But I think neither Catholics (through apostolic tradition) and Mormons (through modern prophets) take a sola scriptura position to cover, in its expanded sense, every nuance of the gospel.

Do we even need the BOM?

I am sure an argument can be made that some people have been saved without reading it and accepting it. However I think one perhaps puts himself/herself in a precarious condition (with the implicit assumption that it *is *God’s truth) by willfully rejecting it.

Can we become a god of our own Celestial planet without ever reading the BOM?

What happens to people in the next life is anybody’s speculation, regardless of what their reading level is.

Where is polygamy in the BOM?

Where is becomming a god in the BOM?

Where is eternal marriage in the BOM?

Besided Jacob 2 for polygamy, these other subjects receive very little treatment in the Book of Mormon. Which is not much of a problem because people who can accept the BOM, generally accept the authority of the man that helped bring it forth and the notion of continuing public revelation.

I love having several copies of the BOM in my personnal library. Yes I do read from the 4 books so I can learn the truth about Mormon opinions, at least the version hey had at the time of printing. I wish my wife hadn’t tossed out my old BOM several years ago before the LDS church changed it to what is today.

I am pleased to hear of your interest in the Book of Mormon and desire to find out mormon belief from the most reliable sources. I also have an interest in some of the old editions of the Book of Mormon. I like the changes over the years to make it more readable. A scholar named Skousen is preparing volumes on all the textual variants over the years.

Later,
fool

 

[catholic-rcia]

“First, the things you say about the Catholic Church are spoken from the perspective of one who believes the Catholic Church is Christ’s “ONE true church.” If I am not to be offended by this concept when you speak as you have, I do not see how you can be offended when I speak of my church as Christ’s true church. In fact, I am less dogmatic about it than you are”

In order not to be offended by another you need to love the other as God loves you and I. If we can love God above all things, we can love others who diagree with Christ as well. It is the mission, to bring Christ to them. But this is Christ’s mission, we being the vehicle that He has chosen.

As to the one true church:
It is like a man that finds a treasure, goes out and sells everything that he has of value and then goes back and builds a home in this field. Then another comes along 1700 years later and says to His children that this is my field because your ancestors lost legal rights a long time ago because they became evil, and then gives this home the same name, and charges them rent to remain in this home on this field. It is very, very different. One had the promise of this home, the other did not, so that “all” still would.

It is the Scriptures that have proclaimed Christ, not the Catholic Church. The Old Testament concerning the coming of Salvation through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, Which by the very Word of God was fulfilled in the New Testament” “It has been done

“Next, when you say, “a Mormon will not be condemned for not being a Catholic.” I assume you mean that LDS may be found “innocently ignorant” and/or availed of the “Baptism of Desire,”

Yes, this is what I was speaking of. Like the thief on the cross, like myself as well.

For, us no ordinance can nor will surpass the Power of Christ. It will be the opportunity of each soul to either choose Trinity, to come into it for all eternity or to choose self and in that case die. Death meaning being apart from God for eternity. The Great flood represents this. The doors at some time will close. as Catholics do not believe in once saved always saved. You can jump ship. It is my belief that a choice will be given as one in the garden, it is a second chance given by the way of the Cross. But do we take Gods wisdom, Trinity in us, or Satan’s wisdom in making this choice? We will either choose what the World has offered us or what Christ has offered us. This would be only Himself. If in the next life I do not ever see those that have loved me so well, I will not despair as if I have lost them to hell. For it was always God through them that loved me anyway. I will find my family in Him.

My way of reasoning, thinking comes by way of the Trinity and of course my fallen nature thrown in. I believe this is the great divide between the way you see things, to the way I see things. If I am right about anything I am right about Christ. I feel comfortable in relinquishing my center to His.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Tom

When I was speaking about the words used to describe the Great Apostasy I was speaking about the words that your past leaders used when they spoke about it.

The Language used. I was thinking about posting them but decided to ask you first. I want to compare this language used to language used by some of those in the Middle East when they speak against America. In order to show that this kind of language is common when it comes to hate and prejudice. In order to compare its tone with language used by your prophet, the founder of your Church. I would also use 2 other sources besides the Middle east. One being during World war two concerning the Jews. Not to prove that the Catholic Church is the one and only Church, but rather to show a pattern of speech that aligns itself with the dark side of man. A side that we all have within ourselves. It is Christ who has already conquered this evil and not us. He takes care of it all. Would you let me do this? It’s up to you. I could just e-mail it to you instead of posting it here. I am leaving for a day, so I would not get to it until Sunday.

God Bless

Rich c

catholic-rcia.com