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PaulDupre
Guest
Thanks, Todd. I appreciate your insights as well.
God bless you,
Paul
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God bless you,
Paul
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oat_soda
Guest
if you follow your feelings and not reason founded on natural law, you’ll be lead to your doom. feelings are what make people sin.
either way, i love those crazy mormons.
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flameburns623
Guest
oat soda:
To Paul D. and others: we don’t disagree that Mormonism is a deception. I simply wish, in Christian charity, to ascribe to individual Mormons the best possible interpretation of their motivations, since I cannot know their hearts. Like Oat Soda I love Mormons, just not Mormonism.
Christ-WA:
Never? I have. Especially during the two-year part of the four-year (five year?) LDS Sunday School cycle where they’re reading the Old and then the New Testament. (They read the OT one year, the NT one year, the Book of Mormon one year, the Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price one year–I am thinking they have now added a year for the study of LDS Church history).
I’m not certain this is authentic Roman Catholic teaching–nor has it been for at least a couple of hundred years. The theory of 'Incincible Ignorance" has prevailed at least so far back as the apologetics of Cardinal Newman, so far as I recollect. This assumes sincere and good-hearted belief, sincere and perfect contrition for sin as one understands one’s sins, and an absolutely invincible antipathy towards the Roman Catholic institution, even though one would indeed become a Catholic if one could somehow come to the knowledge that Catholicism were true. All this is so deeply rooted in the interior predisposition of the individual that even the individual cannot know his/her status before God.
To Paul D. and others: we don’t disagree that Mormonism is a deception. I simply wish, in Christian charity, to ascribe to individual Mormons the best possible interpretation of their motivations, since I cannot know their hearts. Like Oat Soda I love Mormons, just not Mormonism.
Christ-WA:
“Unless you become as little children ye cannot enter the Kingdom of God” . . .“Unless ye have faith as a little child, ye cannot be saved”. Very bad paraphrases I’m sure but these are the justification for the practice. Almost everyone tortures their kids with some sort of obligatory and premature affirmation of faith. Mormons aren’t unique. Think of the words “Christmas Play”.
Really?
Never? I have. Especially during the two-year part of the four-year (five year?) LDS Sunday School cycle where they’re reading the Old and then the New Testament. (They read the OT one year, the NT one year, the Book of Mormon one year, the Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price one year–I am thinking they have now added a year for the study of LDS Church history).
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Tmaque
Guest
flameburns623 said:“Unless you become as little children ye cannot enter the Kingdom of God” . . .“Unless ye have faith as a little child, ye cannot be saved”. Very bad paraphrases I’m sure but these are the justification for the practice. Almost everyone tortures their kids with some sort of obligatory and premature affirmation of faith. Mormons aren’t unique. Think of the words “Christmas Play”.
I find quite a difference between teaching my five year old the Doxology and teaching him to make a public statement about something he can’t possibly know. I remember once in sacrament meeting, right before I left for my mission, a small child bearing his “testimony”, telling everyone that he knew the church was true, that Joseph Smith was a prophet and that Santa Claus was real! Everyone got a real chuckle out of that. But, it really bothered me at the time. We know Santa isn’t real. But, to the child Santa was as real as anything else. So the child had a FALSE testimony!
That’s when I decided that it was wrong to have children bear a testimony that they didn’t really have. It teaches them the wrong things, makes them think that it’s ok to make a public statement and stretch the truth as long as the end justifies the means. I would NEVER make my five year old tell someone he knows The Catholic church is true. Because, he doesn’t.
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cestusdei
Guest
Santa isn’t real? But I have a burning in my bosom that he is real. The milk and cookies disappear every year. There is even chiasmus in the poem The Night Before Christmas. You infidel!
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oat_soda
Guest
animals follow their feelings or instinct. we use reason to test our feelings. but always reason first, not emotion or feelings. if we let our feelings run our life, we behave as animals and forfeit our inheritance as children of God. the church still teaches this. it is all about concupiscence, something which only the catholic church seems to recognize.
this is why someone outside of the visible church can be saved. everyone has reason but they must be open to God’s grace and use reason to choose good. since God is truth, he’ll never lead us to sin. ignorance only lessens the punishment.
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PaulDupre
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That’s a nice attitude and I salute you for it. I agree that most rank-and-file Mormons are simply deceived and don’t know any better.
God bless you,
Paul
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Sophie
Guest
For the recovered Mormons among us, have you ever heard the song “You’re Not My God” by country artist Keith Urban? He wrote it about cocaine addiction, but to me it fits so well also and is very inspiring to those recovering from membership in false religious cults. Super song! It’s on his album “Golden Road”. Check it out! It’s worth a listen. God’s blessings to everyone in 2005!
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Lorarose
Guest
For you ex-Mormons out there…what do you suggest we do when we receive our annual visit from these young men?
I had one over the summer - and I managed to talk about the Early Church Fathers (I was refuting their claim of the Apostasy)
I asked them questions about the historical and archeological proof for Joseph’s Smith’s very interesting take on history - and they didn’t point to one example or to one scholar.
They talked quite a bit about prophets and some leaders they have in Fl. They told me catholics don’t have prophets and seemed surprised when I said “yes we do!”
But - I’m sure they just brushed me off as some poor misled catholic.
How do you ex-Mormons handle these visits?
I had one over the summer - and I managed to talk about the Early Church Fathers (I was refuting their claim of the Apostasy)
I asked them questions about the historical and archeological proof for Joseph’s Smith’s very interesting take on history - and they didn’t point to one example or to one scholar.
They talked quite a bit about prophets and some leaders they have in Fl. They told me catholics don’t have prophets and seemed surprised when I said “yes we do!”
But - I’m sure they just brushed me off as some poor misled catholic.
How do you ex-Mormons handle these visits?
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PaulDupre
Guest
Speaking of BOM evidence, what do present-day Mormons make of the claim that the Hill Cumorah (where Joseph found the gold plates) is full of “wagon loads” of metal plates, swords and other stuff? Why haven’t they ever excavated the hill?
If they found all that stuff, it would be proof positive that Joseph’s claims were true. If they don’t want to disturb the site (which I believe is now owned by the LDS Church), I suggest using ground-penetrating radar to establish that the hill is indeed hollow and contains ancient human artifacts.
Here is one of many accounts of this:
If they found all that stuff, it would be proof positive that Joseph’s claims were true. If they don’t want to disturb the site (which I believe is now owned by the LDS Church), I suggest using ground-penetrating radar to establish that the hill is indeed hollow and contains ancient human artifacts.
Here is one of many accounts of this:
Paul
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tkdnick
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I don’t think you’ll get much response. It seems the LDS people here have disappeared.
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JKirkLVNV
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Tums, Father, you want Tums.
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mormon_fool
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We have no reason to believe that an excavation would be successful. The New York hill is geologically not the type to support caves. Current mormon thinking places the* real* Hill Cumorah somewhere else, contrary to what many past generations of mormons have assumed.
What do I make of Brigham Young’ s account? I consider it a second hand account of a supernatural vision. For those who might be interested, I made several contributions on the subject on another message board.
fairboards.org/index.php?showtopic=5437
Later,
fool
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cestusdei
Guest
The real one is somewhere else? Other then where Smith originally found the alleged plates? How utterly convienent. But I will be fair. Pick any hill in New York that you like and dig up something that shows there were Hebrew civilizations, ala BOM, in the new world. Then I will call and have the missionaries come to give me the lessons. But if you don’t find anything then I get to give you our lessons.
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oat_soda
Guest
i like father mitch pacwa’s challenge for moromns: if the catholic church was wrong for falling into apostacy by changing the teachings of the apostles and Jesus, aren’t they themselves even more guilty for changing the teachings of joe smith, i.e. plural wives (union army forced them to stop or they were going to send them to mexico), blacks being inferior, … etc.
also the fact that the book of abraham was really a 2nd century copy of the egyptian book of dead and there is absolutely no archeological evidence to support what is written in the BOM. you can’t hide lies forever. but mysteriously, mormons are still around and have a slightly higher divorse rate then the rest of the country.
also the fact that the book of abraham was really a 2nd century copy of the egyptian book of dead and there is absolutely no archeological evidence to support what is written in the BOM. you can’t hide lies forever. but mysteriously, mormons are still around and have a slightly higher divorse rate then the rest of the country.
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MrS
Guest
They have their hill(s), we have ours. Ours is blessed by the Cross and the Incarnate Savior Who died there. Their’s is blessed by endless JWian changes and revisions.
Thank you Jw’s and Mormons for increasing my faith.
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mormon_fool
Guest
Yes, and this idea has been kicked around for awhile, at least since '81. The LDS church has never had an official geography for the Book of Mormon so a close reading of the text allows us to revise our thinking.
For instance the second to last Book of Mormon prophet, conveniently named Mormon, writes : “Therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records that had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni” (Mormon 6:6).
This allows the few plates containing the Book of Mormon to be given to Moroni to be taken and buried in a different hill
A fuller discussion of locating the real Hill Cumorah can be found at farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=review&id=29
I will have to respectfully decline your invitation to dig up New York, since I don’t believe that is where the action is. Furthermore I lack archaeological skills, governmental digging permits, or funding. And finally even if convincing evidence is found for Book of Mormon people and places, we are still free to treat the Book’s teachings as mythology.
Later,
fool
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tkdnick
Guest
mormon fool:
Nice to see you back again. Thought you had disappeared on us. This statement of yours baffles me. Are you saying that you believe the BoM to be mythology? As in, that the contents are not actually true? If this is the case WHY would you remain LDS???
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cestusdei
Guest
I can take you to Jerusalem. In fact I am going there soon. It is mentioned in our Bible. Please find one hill, some hill, any hill, where you can dig up something, anything, that proves BOM archeology. It would have to be accepted by non-mormon archeologists. It is so little to ask. I am sure New Yorkers would be happy to have a new tourist attraction, so start digging.
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flameburns623
Guest
The day the archaeologists dig up indisuputable evidences of the Nephite or Lamanite civilization–there will be a mad rush of conversions to Mormonism which will simply overwhelm the LDS missionary program. Remember how the Book of Mormon was revealed: a semi-litterate young man from hicksville, New York, claimed to translate the book by the power of God. NO matter what other goofy things Joseph Smith said or did in his lifetime, if his word on this issue alone would be confirmed–you simply couldn’t hold back the crowds who would flock into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.
I’m not holding my breath that this will happen, however.
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