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Arnobius
Guest
I stand by my statement. Nobody may make additions to the Mass without express permission from the Holy See (or the Bishop in limited conditions).
The norm cited in Vatican II still is in effect.
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Steeltemplar
Guest
Did you read what was quoted from Sacrosanctum Concilium?
So a parish cannot simply make additions or changes to their liturgy at will. The liturgy is strictly defined by the Church.
Silence is not license.
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VociMike
Guest
Boy, you stepped in it this time. You apparently do not even know the reason for the existence of the Adoremus Society.
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Miserissima
Guest
I know I’m a little late here, but…
First off, Boston, nice to meet a fellow transplanted Yankee.
Second, have you found a more conservative parish?
Third, I posted my own story, and will either go across the Potomac into Virginia or go to Mass at the National Basilica. They’re not 100% better, but I’ve given up trying to find the “perfect” parish. In fact, when I went home recently, I saw there had been many changes in my old parish, too.
Banker David said, “I’d like to suggest that you read Scott Hahn’s Lamb’s Supper, or listen to the EWTN presentation on the same. If you truly understand that when we go to Mass we’re experiencing Heaven, you may not think too much about tube tops, what others do with their Host, et al.”
It did help.
First off, Boston, nice to meet a fellow transplanted Yankee.
Second, have you found a more conservative parish?
Third, I posted my own story, and will either go across the Potomac into Virginia or go to Mass at the National Basilica. They’re not 100% better, but I’ve given up trying to find the “perfect” parish. In fact, when I went home recently, I saw there had been many changes in my old parish, too.
Banker David said, “I’d like to suggest that you read Scott Hahn’s Lamb’s Supper, or listen to the EWTN presentation on the same. If you truly understand that when we go to Mass we’re experiencing Heaven, you may not think too much about tube tops, what others do with their Host, et al.”
It did help.
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PaixGioiaAmor
Guest
Every cannon lawyer, liturgy experct, and diocessan person representing bishops I have ever spoken to on this subject disagrees with you: it is universally known that things forbidden are usually mentioned specifically - in fact, new norms are often correctives.
Since you are interpreting documents and law, do you even know how to do that? Things are not always as simple as they appear at face value, just as they are not in civil law either.
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PaixGioiaAmor
Guest
Actually, I do know quite a bit about Adoremus. I have read their newsletter many times.
Them saying that they accept Vatican II doesn’t mean anything. Their actions, editorials, and the entire tenor of their existance suggests a strong resistance to many Vatican II ideals.
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VociMike
Guest
I’ve read the Vatican II documents and I never found any “Vatican II ideals” listed. There are only Vatican II statements. Tell me one statement from the Council that Adoremus is against.
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Walking_Home
Guest
More truthfully—a resistance to the “Spirit of Vat. II” ideals.
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VociMike
Guest
Am I understanding you correctly? Are you saying that anything, absolutely anything, that is not explicitly forbidden in the Missal and/or GIRM is allowed at Mass?
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PaixGioiaAmor
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Walking_Home
Guest
So then—things not mentioned are not forbidden- but if not forbidden —then No–not allowed.
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cecilia97
Guest
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VociMike
Guest
Did you or did you not suggest that anything that is not explicitly forbidden is (“usually,” whatever that means) not in fact forbidden?
If you did not suggest that, what did you suggest?
And what argument is it that I’m trying to win?
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Steeltemplar
Guest
I am really not interested in playing “I know more than you know” here.
The Church does not allow Priests to simply add to the liturgy at will. The language is plain in that document and I do not see how it could be interpreted otherwise. And it explicitly forbids Priests from changing the liturgy.
Or are you saying that the Priest can do whatever he wants to the liturgy so long as it is not specifically forbidden? Because that would be the alternative to what Arnobius and I have said.
Let’s remove all confusion:
Does a Priest have the authority to change the liturgy on his own, yes or no?
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Arnobius
Guest
Not that it is any of your business, but I have a Masters in Theology actually…
However, if you want a Bishop i have already cited Cardinal Arinze earlier in the thread. We can also take the word of the Bishop of Charleston:
The words of prayers, responses and readings are to be utilized as they appear in the approved Mass texts. For example, The Nicene Creed, the response at the Orate fratres, and the preface dialogue, and other Mass texts are not to be altered. No foreign elements are to be introduced into the liturgy other than those that are called for by the liturgical norms, e.g. liturgical dance
charlottediocese.org/customers/101092709242178/filemanager/Liturgy/Liturgical_Norms_031905.pdf
His authority is GIRM, 399; RS, 11-12, 59; Notitiae 11 (1975) 202-205; Canon Law Digest, Vol. VIII, pp. 78-82
We have at least two on record then as contradicting your assertion. Now where are your documents in support of your view? Where is your evidence that Adoremus is not a group with a proper understanding of the norms? Any Church condemnations?
VociMike is not engaging in hyperbole. He is pointing out the logical flaws of your claim.
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Steeltemplar
Guest
An article from Zenit on EWTN which looks at the question of liturgical dance:
ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur52.htm
ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur52.htm
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Steeltemplar
Guest
As far as I can see, they are dedicated to realizing the authentic goals of the Second Vatican Council.
Cardinal Arinze certainly seems to like them
adoremus.org/CardinalFrancisArinze.html
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Arnobius
Guest
I believe the Congregation for Divine Worship has some interesting words on the subject:
Redemptionis Sacramentum
On certain matters to be observed or to be avoided
regarding the Most Holy Eucharist
[12.] On the contrary, it is the right of all of Christ’s faithful that the Liturgy, and in particular the celebration of Holy Mass, should truly be as the Church wishes, according to her stipulations as prescribed in the liturgical books and in the other laws and norms. Likewise, the Catholic people have the right that the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass should be celebrated for them in an integral manner, according to the entire doctrine of the Church’s Magisterium. Finally, it is the Catholic community’s right that the celebration of the Most Holy Eucharist should be carried out for it in such a manner that it truly stands out as a sacrament of unity, to the exclusion of all blemishes and actions that might engender divisions and factions in the Church.[32]
[14.] “The regulation of the Sacred Liturgy depends solely on the authority of the Church, which rests specifically with the Apostolic See and, according to the norms of law, with the Bishop.[34]
[17.] “The Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments attends to those matters that pertain to the Apostolic See as regards the regulation and promotion of the Sacred Liturgy, and especially the Sacraments, with due regard for the competence of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. It fosters and enforces sacramental discipline, especially as regards their validity and their licit celebration”. Finally, it “carefully seeks to ensure that the liturgical regulations are observed with precision, and that abuses are prevented or eliminated whenever they are detected”[37]. In this regard, according to the tradition of the universal Church, pre-eminent solicitude is accorded the celebration of Holy Mass, and also to the worship that is given to the Holy Eucharist even outside Mass.
[18.] Christ’s faithful have the right that ecclesiastical authority should fully and efficaciously regulate the Sacred Liturgy lest it should ever seem to be “anyone’s private property, whether of the celebrant or of the community in which the mysteries are celebrated”[38].
[28.] All liturgical norms that a Conference of Bishops will have established for its territory in accordance with the law are to be submitted to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments for the recognitio, without which they lack any binding force.[65]
In short we have any proposed changes to the Mass must be approved by the Congregation for Divine Worship and approved before it can be done validly…
As Cardinal Arinze has said in adoremus.org/1003Arinze.html
“There has never been a document from our Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments saying that dance is approved in the Mass.”
Redemptionis Sacramentum
On certain matters to be observed or to be avoided
regarding the Most Holy Eucharist
[12.] On the contrary, it is the right of all of Christ’s faithful that the Liturgy, and in particular the celebration of Holy Mass, should truly be as the Church wishes, according to her stipulations as prescribed in the liturgical books and in the other laws and norms. Likewise, the Catholic people have the right that the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass should be celebrated for them in an integral manner, according to the entire doctrine of the Church’s Magisterium. Finally, it is the Catholic community’s right that the celebration of the Most Holy Eucharist should be carried out for it in such a manner that it truly stands out as a sacrament of unity, to the exclusion of all blemishes and actions that might engender divisions and factions in the Church.[32]
[14.] “The regulation of the Sacred Liturgy depends solely on the authority of the Church, which rests specifically with the Apostolic See and, according to the norms of law, with the Bishop.[34]
[17.] “The Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments attends to those matters that pertain to the Apostolic See as regards the regulation and promotion of the Sacred Liturgy, and especially the Sacraments, with due regard for the competence of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. It fosters and enforces sacramental discipline, especially as regards their validity and their licit celebration”. Finally, it “carefully seeks to ensure that the liturgical regulations are observed with precision, and that abuses are prevented or eliminated whenever they are detected”[37]. In this regard, according to the tradition of the universal Church, pre-eminent solicitude is accorded the celebration of Holy Mass, and also to the worship that is given to the Holy Eucharist even outside Mass.
[18.] Christ’s faithful have the right that ecclesiastical authority should fully and efficaciously regulate the Sacred Liturgy lest it should ever seem to be “anyone’s private property, whether of the celebrant or of the community in which the mysteries are celebrated”[38].
[28.] All liturgical norms that a Conference of Bishops will have established for its territory in accordance with the law are to be submitted to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments for the recognitio, without which they lack any binding force.[65]
In short we have any proposed changes to the Mass must be approved by the Congregation for Divine Worship and approved before it can be done validly…
As Cardinal Arinze has said in adoremus.org/1003Arinze.html
“There has never been a document from our Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments saying that dance is approved in the Mass.”
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Steeltemplar
Guest
Karl Keating here on our own Catholic Answers wrote this very good piece about liturgical dance
catholic.com/newsletters/kke_060509.asp
It includes a quote on the subject from then Cardinal Ratzinger, Pope Benedict XVI:
catholic.com/newsletters/kke_060509.asp
It includes a quote on the subject from then Cardinal Ratzinger, Pope Benedict XVI:
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