So, i hear...

[wisdomseeker]

One answer I’ve been given by my Protestant brothers and sisters is God could have used the CC for that purpose at the time. But it doesn’t mean Christ did not need to reform Her. But some of our Protestant brothers or sisters here can perhaps answer you better.

you mean. like if priests were neede then,it is no longer needed today?

if apostolic succession was necessarily then, today no longer is?

Eucharist was True then, it is no longer today?

confession was necessary then, today it is no longer the case?

Jesus built one Church, but today He changed His minded?

Jesus found a Teaching Church, but today this Teaching Church is no longer necessary?

Jesus built a Church for just a period of time?

you mean the following generations was not meant to know the Truth, but a bunch of different teachings?

now, if you told me this when the Bible was not in their hands , and they were preaching what was written in the Bible, i could probably believe it. but since they have the Word, they can just say what ever they want. as for me i believe on the Church that received the promise from Jesus Himself. you dont seem to understand the relationship between Israel and the Church.

may be this will help you to understand.
zuserver2.star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m3/4mrkc.html

 

[TEPO]

Wisdomseeker…

As I’ve said before…the Church comprises of ALL Christians. Just read the CCC. When you pray at Mass…the Eucharistic Prayer refers to “all the people you have gathered to me”. Not just a particular part of the Church.

Yes, but is’nt it true that the Catholic Church considers non-catholic “Christians” as “material heretics”, and so in turn, since one can only be considered a heretic because one is a catholic, then - all protestants = non-practicing catholics and are in danger of negating their salvation?

As our brothers shouldnt we try to inform them of their ignorance?

Is this not true Charity?

 

[tweetymom]

False dichotomy on your part Tweetymom. Who says that an organization CANNOT be the Church of the BIble? Not the Bible, that’s for sure.

There is no such thing as a nebulous ‘invisible church of believers’. St. Paul was very specific about the Church being visible. A real ‘organization’.

Honestly, considering how you loathe and detest virtually every Catholic teaching ever given, I’m surprised you want to be considered Catholic.

Yep, it is JUST like somebody who eats steak 3 times a day insisting on being a card-carrying member of the Vegan Society.

Did I ever say I loathed anyone? Nope.I just do not agree with all the CC teaches. * really do not care what you think only what Jesus thinks. You do not my heart nor do I know yours or anyone elses.*

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

One answer I’ve been given by my Protestant brothers and sisters is God could have used the CC for that purpose at the time. But it doesn’t mean Christ did not need to reform Her. But some of our Protestant brothers or sisters here can perhaps answer you better.

I think everyone recognizes the fact that a ‘reform’ in the Church was necessary. There were sinful men in the Church. There always will be, and that goes for ANY Church. Just as there were sinful men, there were many devout and holy men, as well or the Church would be no different today.

The problem lies within how it was ‘reformed’. You cannot reform what you leave. In my opinion, men left the Church Christ built and started a new one. This suggests that they, men, could improve on that which Christ built.

Martin Luther had a problem with ‘indulgences’ and more specifically that they were sold. I believe he articulated his objection rather well and feel it sad that he chose to leave the Church.

Since leaving the Church, look at all the other objections that have been raised. Martin Luther believed in the real presence, the perpetual virginity, etc.

Those practices of selling indulgences no longer exist in the Church, therefore it has been reformed, from within. But because of those that left the Church, we now have a ‘list’ of objections to try and satisfy. That list was produced through private interpretations of scriptures weighed against doctrines of the Church, that they are no longer a part of.

They only have parts of the faith, hopefully enough parts to be worthy of the promises of Christ through God’s great and infinite ecomony. That is my prayer.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Wisdomseeker…

As I’ve said before…the Church comprises of ALL Christians. Just read the CCC. When you pray at Mass…the Eucharistic Prayer refers to “all the people you have gathered to me”. Not just a particular part of the Church.

i think you are misinterpreting the CCC.

ALL christians under one faith. One Eucharist, which it is only done in the CC and Orthodox Churches.

 

[spn82756]

Yes, but is’nt it true that the Catholic Church considers non-catholic “Christians” as “material heretics”, and so in turn, since one can only be considered a heretic because one is a catholic, then - all protestants = non-practicing catholics and are in danger of negating their salvation?

To consider them as our brothers shouldnt we try to inform them of their ignorance?

Yes…but at the same time…I do not believe that today’s Christians are considered heretics. Founders of other churches may have been considered heretics…but there is a distinct differences. CCC 817 squarely places blame on both sides of the aisle.

Now…the least change that has occurred in 2000 years has been with the Orthodox Church. That is why they consider Catholics to be heretics. But…heresy refers to teachings that are false (perhaps the rapture) or teachings that disagree with the Catholics Church (IE…the Real Presence) that does not diminish the fact that Christians are Christians.

 

[tweetymom]

all believers under the authority of the Chair of St Peter. this is the Church.

i am interesting in know how many brides Jesus is to have. as far as i know the Bible says only One. not many. this Church represents His Kingdom with authority on earth. does your church have authority like the CC does?

it talks about One Church. this seems to be saying that there is only One Truth. if the CC is not the One teaching the Truth, who is? the baptists, methodists, assemblies of God, church of God, church of Christ? who? who sent them? did you read the Bible and then started your church? it must be all in One accord, if it is from God. read below.

“Yes, to me, the very least of all saints, there was given this grace, to announce among the Gentiles the good tidings of the unfathomable riches of Christ, and to enlighten all men as to what is the dispensation of the mystery which has been hidden from eternity in GOD, who created all things; in order that through the Church there be made known to the Principalities and the Powers in the Heavens the manifold wisdom of GOD…” Eph 3:8-10

i am not talking about half truths, if such thing even exists.

I do not know any half truths myself. I know Jesus’ love.

 

[spn82756]

i think you are misinterpreting the CCC.

ALL christians under one faith. One Eucharist, which it is only done in the CC and Orthodox Churches.

Ah…but the Orthodox Church does not recognize our Eucharist.

And from Eucharistic Prayer I…

Lord, may this sacrifice,
which has made our peace with your,
advance the peace and salvation of the world.

Strengthen in faith and love your pilgrim Church on earth;
Your servant Pope Benedict,
our Bishop N.,
and all the bishops,
with the clergy and the ENTIRE PEOPLE YOUR SON HAS GAINED FOR YOU.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I think everyone recognizes the fact that a ‘reform’ in the Church was necessary. There were sinful men in the Church. There always will be, and that goes for ANY Church. Just as there were sinful men, there were many devout and holy men, as well or the Church would be no different today.

The problem lies within how it was ‘reformed’. You cannot reform what you leave. In my opinion, men left the Church Christ built and started a new one. This suggests that they, men, could improve on that which Christ built.

Martin Luther had a problem with ‘indulgences’ and more specifically that they were sold. I believe he articulated his objection rather well and feel it sad that he chose to leave the Church.

Since leaving the Church, look at all the other objections that have been raised. Martin Luther believed in the real presence, the perpetual virginity, etc.

Those practices of selling indulgences no longer exist in the Church, therefore it has been reformed, from within. But because of those that left the Church, we now have a ‘list’ of objections to try and satisfy. That list was produced through private interpretations of scriptures weighed against doctrines of the Church, that they are no longer a part of.

They only have parts of the faith, hopefully enough parts to be worthy of the promises of Christ through God’s great and infinite ecomony. That is my prayer.

the story of indulgences has been greatly exagerated by the descents of the CC. it was not done the way they presented.

the truth of this it was that the Church was given much by those who had much, so the Church would give them indulgences. we must remember that europe became christians trough the Church and they did what they were supposed to do for Christ, to build the Kingdom. they had love for God and His Church. today, we hear only disdain and criticism of the Church. most wanted the Church to disapear fromt the face of the earth. because the Church represents God on earth. the enemies of God knonw. it is the CC that bothers people and satan. but Jesus promise His Church will be here until He comes back. and so it is Lord.

 

[spn82756]

the story of indulgences has been greatly exagerated by the descents of the CC. it was not done the way they presented.

Perhaps you can explain and document how it was done.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Ah…but the Orthodox Church does not recognize our Eucharist.

And from Eucharistic Prayer I…

Lord, may this sacrifice,
which has made our peace with your,
advance the peace and salvation of the world.

Strengthen in faith and love your pilgrim Church on earth;
Your servant Pope Benedict,
our Bishop N.,
and all the bishops,
with the clergy and the ENTIRE PEOPLE YOUR SON HAS GAINED FOR YOU.

this will soon change.

like JK Chesterton says: " the Catholic can rebuke the world, but the world cannot rebuke her."

 

[spn82756]

this will soon change.

like JK Chesterton says: " the Catholic can rebuke the world, but the world cannot rebuke her."

What will change? I truly didn’t understand the post.

BTW…did you mean G.K. Chesterton?

 

[TEPO]

Yes…but at the same time…I do not believe that today’s Christians are considered heretics. Founders of other churches may have been considered heretics…but there is a distinct differences. CCC 817 squarely places blame on both sides of the aisle…

Agreed. An uninformed follower of a Protestant faith is not a heretic, however those who know the truth, yet refuse to acknowledge it, are guilty of heresy.

Now…the least change that has occurred in 2000 years has been with the Orthodox Church. That is why they consider Catholics to be heretics. .

O.K. They are very “old fashioned”.

But…heresy refers to teachings that are false (perhaps the rapture) or teachings that disagree with the Catholics Church (IE…the Real Presence) that does not diminish the fact that Christians are Christians.

But when opening our arms to the Protestants, catholics must stand firm in our traditions and not “accept” the false doctrines. We need to make this clear.

We need to be careful because it can go two ways: We can cause lost faith in the sacraments thus causing more Catholic dissent, or we can draw more Protestants back to the catholic Church…

So which will happen?

 

[wisdomseeker]

What will change? I truly didn’t understand the post.

BTW…did you mean G.K. Chesterton?

soon the CC and the EO will join to be One again.

GK Chesterton.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Did I ever say I loathed anyone? Nope.I just do not agree with all the CC teaches. * really do not care what you think only what Jesus thinks. You do not my heart nor do I know yours or anyone elses.*

tweetymom, no one said you loathe ‘anyone’. They said that you loathe the teachings of the Catholic Church. Even in this post, you have repeated what you’ve stated more times than I would care to count, ‘I just do not agree with all the CC teaches.’ From your posts, the words you use and the tone you take, it seems apparent, that you loathe the teachings of the Catholic Church.

I told you once, it would probably be easier for you to list the things you do agree with. Later I asked you to tell me what you agreed with. You listed two sacraments. When someone commented on ‘only two’, you modified it to be all seven sacraments, but you didn’t have time to type it all out at the time.

There seems to be a contradiction in believing in Holy Orders, and rejecting the teachings of the men of the Church.

What about confirmation? Is there a contradiction between the confirmed and them making statements against the Church they are more perfectly bound too?

Catechism of the Catholic Church

 

[spn82756]

Agreed. An uninformed follower of a Protestant faith is not a heretic, however those who know the truth, yet refuse to acknowledge it, are guilty of heresy.

Someone that absolutely knows the truth who is Christian could not choose to ignore it. But…If you grew up in a devoutly Baptist family…do you think you could easily accept what you’ve been taught is not the full truth? Probably not…although I should not answer on your behalf.

O.K. They are very “old fashioned”.

I’m sorry…but that carries no wait. If the Vatican suddenly says that artificial birth control is fine…and you stand by the old teaching. Doesn’t that make you old fashion? Or if women were ordained priests? Catholics are saying that we have the one true Apostolic Church. Is that old fashioned?

But when opening our arms to the Protestants, catholics must stand firm in our traditions and not “accept” the false doctrines. We need to make this clear.

okay!

We need to be careful because it can go two ways: We can cause lost faith in the sacraments thus causing more Catholic dissent, or we can draw more Protestants back to the catholic Church…

So which will happen?

We cannot cause lost faith in the sacraments among Catholics. They choose to remain Catholic or not.

 

[TEPO]

Someone that absolutely knows the truth who is Christian could not choose to ignore it. But…If you grew up in a devoutly Baptist family…do you think you could easily accept what you’ve been taught is not the full truth? Probably not…although I should not answer on your behalf. .

newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm
“The primary purpose of those actual graces which God bestows upon those outside the Church is to draw them within the fold.”

Is’nt it true that the catholilc faith, exclusively, is the closest one can get to Jesus here on earth? So should’nt it be the goal of a well informed protestant to become one?

I’m sorry…but that carries no wait. If the Vatican suddenly says that artificial birth control is fine…and you stand by the old teaching. Doesn’t that make you old fashion? Or if women were ordained priests? Catholics are saying that we have the one true Apostolic Church. Is that old fashioned?.

Truth is, I’m not all that knowledgeable about the Orthodox… All I know is that they use actual bread as the host, do not believe in Jesus’ two natures, and wanted their own pope a long time ago because they were too far away from Rome -which along with language barriars, is why they seperated themselves.

We cannot cause lost faith in the sacraments among Catholics. They choose to remain Catholic or not.

This is where I strongly disagree… By recognizing alternative and often much simpler routes to heaven, the lay catholic will often “fall-out” of the faith…

How else do you think corruption spreads? By example and by tolerance… By you tolerating the behaviors of the Protestants you are sending a clear message to lay catholics that it is acceptable to deny the sacraments and become just like the rest.

furthermore, if we lose one catholic, because of tolerance, then that is too many… We need to protect the Church, which are her members… We need to concentrate on saving souls, not creating unity.

 

[tweetymom]

tweetymom, no one said you loathe ‘anyone’. They said that you loathe the teachings of the Catholic Church. Even in this post, you have repeated what you’ve stated more times than I would care to count, ‘I just do not agree with all the CC teaches.’ From your posts, the words you use and the tone you take, it seems apparent, that you loathe the teachings of the Catholic Church.

I told you once, it would probably be easier for you to list the things you do agree with. Later I asked you to tell me what you agreed with. You listed two sacraments. When someone commented on ‘only two’, you modified it to be all seven sacraments, but you didn’t have time to type it all out at the time.

There seems to be a contradiction in believing in Holy Orders, and rejecting the teachings of the men of the Church.

What about confirmation? Is there a contradiction between the confirmed and them making statements against the Church they are more perfectly bound too?

What about the nicene creed we say at every Mass?

It’s very hard to understand exactly what you believe, if you don’t take time to explain your beliefs a little more in detail…

I did explain why I didn’t finish typing the 7 sacraments, was becauseIhad to leave and forgot to shut down. Loathe and disagree are 2 different words with 2 different meanings, I never said I loathed anything about the CC, just did not agree with all. What about loathe and disagree being differebnt do you not understand?

The biggest diagreement I have is Birth control being a sin. I do not loathe this just disagree. If you are in agreement Great!

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I did explain why I didn’t finish typing the 7 sacraments, was becauseIhad to leave and forgot to shut down. Loathe and disagree are 2 different words with 2 different meanings, I never said I loathed anything about the CC, just did not agree with all. What about loathe and disagree being differebnt do you not understand?

The biggest diagreement I have is Birth control being a sin. I do not loathe this just disagree. If you are in agreement Great!

Well, we understood that you disagree with ‘some’ teachings of the Catholic Church the first hundred or so times you repeated it. But when it comes up continually, it seems to go much deeper than different. That’s just an observation.

I have a video of a speaker named Dr. Ray Guarendi. He gave me a clear explanation of why the Church’s stand on certain birth controls was right. From memory, I will share the ‘gist’ of his story.

Back when everyone was thinking birth control was the new thing, people approached the Holy Father about relaxing the Church rules on birth control, after all everyone else has no problem with it. The pill was safe and it wasn’t an abortifacient, people declared. The Pope’s decision was to continue the course that birth controls would not be allowed. Some years passed, and the subject was revisited. This specific pill came up again and was being discussed. Then someone brought up the fact that the pill was not an abortifacient. But, technologies were better and a nurse explained that wasn’t exactly true. The pill not only prevented the fertilization, it would stop a fertilized egg from ‘living’. Had the Holy Father agreed with those who approached him and allowed this pill to be used, the Church would have been in error.

God’s plan is for man to multiply and be fruitful. Who are we to tamper with God’s plan? We know where pregnancies comes from and we know that abstinence will prevent an unwanted pregnancy. But people think their right to sex. pleasures of the flesh, outweighs God’s plan, or design.

That’s my short and simple explanation of birth control. It’s not rocket science in my opinion. We pray for His will be done, then we try to find ways to circumvent His will, for our own desires.

 

[wisdomseeker]

newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm
“The primary purpose of those actual graces which God bestows upon those outside the Church is to draw them within the fold.”

Is’nt it true that the catholilc faith, exclusively, is the closest one can get to Jesus here on earth? So should’nt it be the goal of a well informed protestant to become one?

Truth is, I’m not all that knowledgeable about the Orthodox… All I know is that they use actual bread as the host, do not believe in Jesus’ two natures, and wanted their own pope a long time ago because they were too far away from Rome -which along with language barriars, is why they seperated themselves.

This is where I strongly disagree… By recognizing alternative and often much simpler routes to heaven, the lay catholic will often “fall-out” of the faith…

How else do you think corruption spreads? By example and by tolerance… By you tolerating the behaviors of the Protestants you are sending a clear message to lay catholics that it is acceptable to deny the sacraments and become just like the rest.

furthermore, if we lose one catholic, because of tolerance, then that is too many… We need to protect the Church, which are her members… We need to concentrate on saving souls, not creating unity.

"… for the union of Christians can only be promoted by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from it…" (Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos, para. 10)