So is it or isn't it a human

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it’s a human. it’s an unborn, fetal human, but it’s still certainly a human, made in the image of God.

just like an unborn dog is still a dog. it’s fetal and may not look much like a full-grown dog (depending on how far along the gestation is) but it’s certainly not a rabbit or a crab, and isn’t anything but a dog. no matter how squishy and tadpole-like it may appear. it’s still a dog.
 
it’s a human. it’s an unborn, fetal human, but it’s still certainly a human, made in the image of God.

just like an unborn dog is still a dog. it’s fetal and may not look much like a full-grown dog (depending on how far along the gestation is) but it’s certainly not a rabbit or a crab, and isn’t anything but a dog. no matter how squishy and tadpole-like it may appear. it’s still a dog.
so the fact that the embryo goes through stages where it resembles different animals along the evolutionary ladder is irrelevant?
 
Little Soldier - science isn’t concerned with the metaphysical, and when the conceptus becomes a “person”, “human being”, whatever term you use is not a scientific question. Even the Church hasn’t definitively pronounced on when ensoulment occurs.
 
You’re both wrong, because there’s various things you fail to appreciate.
I find it faintly amusing how you both comment on an area which you don’t really know that much about as if you knew how best to do scientific research:confused:
and this only because you don’t like the results of the research, the worst of all possible reasons
I have acted as a Research Assistant in my work at the University. (It wasn’t part of my job description, but because there was a lack of Assistants on a particular project that was related to my work, I ended up doing that job, as well, even though I have never been a Grad student.)

The most important thing in all of the research that we were doing, was data collection. Nothing can happen without the initial data collection. The data had to be observed, collected, and sorted before it could be analyzed. It is not physically possible to analyze uncollected data.

My question remains: If the women had no idea that they were pregnant and then lost the pregnancy, where did the researchers get the data from, that was the basis of their findings? What did they photograph? What audio recordings did they make? What surveys did they distribute and then receive back - to whom did they give them? 🤷
 
…and if you read the papers jmcrae, you’ll find the answers to these questions. you can look at them yourself rather than badger me in the hope I will use my time to look for you.
 
…and if you read the papers jmcrae, you’ll find the answers to these questions. you can look at them yourself rather than badger me in the hope I will use my time to look for you.
So, you’ve never actually read them, either. 🤷
 
1) Yes, human is human regardless of size/stage of development.

2) While the specific point of “ensoulment” is apparently undetermined, I tend to think it is at the time of conception. After all “it is the Spirit that gives life”, right?

3) I agree, that regardless of the time of “ensoulment”, the benefit of the doubt should be in favor of the child.

4) The time of “ensoulment” is irrelevant to “spontaneous abortions.” A common type of “spontaneous abortion” is miscarriage, which can happen at many points throughout a pregnancy. Regardless of the spiritual status of a child who dies via spontaneous abortion, such deaths, while tragic, are natural. Intentionally procured abortions are murder.

5)
“technically, the pregnant woman has rights over the fetus, because the fetus is in her uterus, and that uterus belongs to her. Her body belongs to her, not to the fetus.”
Technically, if you put someone in a dependent position in which they rely on you for life, then you are responsible for them.

In the case of the pregnant woman, she is responsible for having placed the child (without the child’s consent), into a dependent position (inside of her own body), whether she did so intentionally or not. With the sole exception of pregnancy due to forcible rape, she has already given her consent, either directly or by implication, so is responsible for the life of the child until it can survive outside of her body.

But I didn’t mean for that to happen!” does not relieve one of responsibility for their actions.

In the case of rape, in which the child was created with no choice of either the mother of child, this argument might be able to hold at least a drop of water. But intentionally killing an innocent person is murder, whether because of the sins of the child’s parents or because the child was conceived during the victimization of their mother.

6)
“If the fetus or embyro is human, then what should be the punishment for killing a fetus or embryo?”
Is this a variation of the “are you really proposing putting women in jail for having abortions?” question? If so, the answer is no, & for several reasons. For one, the woman is a victim of abortion too. For another, women who have abortions admittedly do so for many reasons. Often, they have been led to believe they really have no choice. (That’s ironic, isn’t it?) Without the ability to read minds, the inner state & decision making process of a woman would be nearly impossible to truly determine, so she could not be prosecuted even if anyone wanted her to be.

However, the doctor who performed the act certainly would be culpable for his/her actions, against both the child & their mother.

It’s hard to imagine an act more opposed to the “First, do no harm” ethic than intentionally killing a child. As such, I would recommend at least delicensing any doctor who performed one, & ban them from ever practicing medicine in the US again.

Given the common horrible effects on many women who have had abortions, I question whether prison time wouldn’t be a wise addition to this delicensing.
 
so the fact that the embryo goes through stages where it resembles different animals along the evolutionary ladder is irrelevant?
Although there have been recent attempts to “modernize” it, “Ontology recapitulating phylogeny” is an archaic explanation of a gestational phenomenon which hasn’t been used in science for probably over a hundred years now. It’s been discredited, at least in its original form as proposed by Ernst Haeckel.

And yes, it is irrelevant.

Sancta Maria! Mater dei, ora pro nobis.
 
I have acted as a Research Assistant in my work at the University. (It wasn’t part of my job description, but because there was a lack of Assistants on a particular project that was related to my work, I ended up doing that job, as well, even though I have never been a Grad student.)

The most important thing in all of the research that we were doing, was data collection. Nothing can happen without the initial data collection. The data had to be observed, collected, and sorted before it could be analyzed. It is not physically possible to analyze uncollected data.

My question remains: If the women had no idea that they were pregnant and then lost the pregnancy, where did the researchers get the data from, that was the basis of their findings? What did they photograph? What audio recordings did they make? What surveys did they distribute and then receive back - to whom did they give them? 🤷
I’ve been wondering about that, too (and I have been a grad student :)). I can’t comprehend of a way to find any data regarding zygote death before implantation. How can it be done? If it’s a normal biological process for the zygote to die and then be flushed from the body during that part of a menstrual cycle, how would anyone know these zygotes even existed? How could anyone set up any sort of research project? There is no sample.

It makes no sense to me at all. If the data aren’t there, the data aren’t there. That’s what it comes down to. It would be like trying to study unicorns. 🤷

The *only *possibility I can think of is that there might be a chance that zygote death would cause a change of some sort in the menstrual cycle, so that noting these changes in some sort of group of sexually active women and then going backwards, maybe one could theorize that the changes in the menstrual cycle were due to zygote death. But where would the subjects come from? Why would any woman even think that she had lost a child before implantation if there isn’t any evidence?

I don’t see how it can be done, at least not with the primitive technology we have today.

Sancta Maria! Mater dei, ora pro nobis.
 
Article found in FIVE minutes via Google Scholar (I haven’t had time to read it fully, need to go out shortly):
humupd.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/8/4/333
PDF available for the full paper
It took you a whole FIVE minutes? 😃

Thank you for the reference. Although I have concerns regarding the sampling techniques, I want to read the entire paper before coming to any conclusions.

It does indicate that there are measurable changes which may point to zygote loss before implantation. I wish I had the ability to make a thorough study of this subject because it’s important for anyone interested in debating the pros and cons of abortion to understand exactly what is going on.

However, in an attempt to return to the OP, I still maintain that it is irrelevant. The fact of a zygote dying before implantation does not mean the zygote was (and is) not a human being. A new human being is formed at conception. It may appear to be unfortunate that so many zygotes die before implantation, but as they are human beings they are Holy Innocents and are in heaven, alive in God. God designed sexual intercourse as a method for bringing new life into this world. If zygote death before implantation occurs, this may very well be part of God’s plan. I obviously have not read all the research on this, but I believe that it’s highly probable that these zygotes would never have survived outside of their mothers’ wombs and their inability to implant is evidence of this. So their lives in their mothers’ wombs is short. Length of time alive (on earth) is not a good indicator of the humanness of beings. If that were so, elderly people would be more “human” than toddlers.

I’m not saying that attempts should not be made to save these new human beings. They are precious and it is our responsibility to protect them.

Sancta Maria! Mater die, ora pro nobis.
 
Since God knew you before you were knit in your mother’s womb I guess YES a fetus is a baby. (It is not a fetus it is a child)
 
It took you a whole FIVE minutes? 😃

Thank you for the reference. Although I have concerns regarding the sampling techniques, I want to read the entire paper before coming to any conclusions.

It does indicate that there are measurable changes which may point to zygote loss before implantation. I wish I had the ability to make a thorough study of this subject because it’s important for anyone interested in debating the pros and cons of abortion to understand exactly what is going on.

However, in an attempt to return to the OP, I still maintain that it is irrelevant. The fact of a zygote dying before implantation does not mean the zygote was (and is) not a human being. A new human being is formed at conception. It may appear to be unfortunate that so many zygotes die before implantation, but as they are human beings they are Holy Innocents and are in heaven, alive in God. God designed sexual intercourse as a method for bringing new life into this world. If zygote death before implantation occurs, this may very well be part of God’s plan. I obviously have not read all the research on this, but I believe that it’s highly probable that these zygotes would never have survived outside of their mothers’ wombs and their inability to implant is evidence of this. So their lives in their mothers’ wombs is short. Length of time alive (on earth) is not a good indicator of the humanness of beings. If that were so, elderly people would be more “human” than toddlers.

I’m not saying that attempts should not be made to save these new human beings. They are precious and it is our responsibility to protect them.

Sancta Maria! Mater die, ora pro nobis.
I thought the “Holy Innocents” refers to Matthew 2 - those children who were killed by Herod.

How are you using it here?

Also, I’d like to point out that the Church does not say those infants who die before baptism will certainly go to heaven. Hopefully, but not certainty. You were ready to argue with Doc earlier about this until he pointed out that he wasn’t the one who suggested it. Then you seemed to agree. Now it seems like you’re once again disagreeing and insisting that they’re certainly saved.
“We cannot say we know with certainty what will happen [to unbaptized babies],” Father McPartlan said, “but we have good grounds to hope that God in his mercy and love looks after these children and brings them to salvation.”
catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=21542
I urge you to be careful not to mislead anyone about what the Church teaches.
 
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