So just what are the beliefs that are mandatory for salvation

[TEPO]

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith;and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.

That is my answer.

One more thing, it does not mention the church you must attend.

Since grace is the “gift” of knowing that we need to be forgiven for sins – then this is where we begin…

But having grace is a far stretch from having sanctifying grace…

Sanctifying Grace then basically means you are made aware of the need to maintain an everlasting salvation…

But, one must first become justified in order to recieve sanctifying grace – So that means only by being sorry for our sins can we be given the sanctifying grace to desire salvation, don’t you agree?

Finally, we can begin to start living the 4 step process divinely prescribed to the Church:

1. sanctification: To be made holy by Baptism.
2. redemption: This is where Jesus saved us on the cross.
3. forgiveness: Confession means sins are actually removed from the soul…
4. justification: True sorrow / Perfect Contrition.

So by starting with grace one eventually becomes saved through the lilfe-long process of salvation… Right?

:coolinoff:

But remember, we have to be a member of the Church with Jesus Christ as its Head – because faith in Jesus is not only a part of salvation - (2. redemption)… Faith in Jesus is the basis of salvation… Jesus died for salvation!

Order:

• grace (knowledge of sin)
• justification (sorrow)
• sanctifying grace (desire for lifelong committment)
• salvation (the 4-step process prescribed to the Church)
• everlasting salvation (to continue the process of salvation in heaven)

 

[TEPO]

By the way, salvation does not mean “go to heaven”, although it can be considered synonymous thanks to Jesus…

To live in heaven is: sainthood… Yes, everyone who lives in heaven is a saint. We are all called to sainthood.

 

[SteveVH]

Order:

• grace (knowledge of sin)
• justification (sorrow)
• sanctifying grace (desire for lifelong committment)
• salvation (the 4-step process prescribed to the Church)
• everlasting salvation (to continue the process of salvation in heaven)

I’m not quite sure I agree with your definitions.

Following are the Catechism’s definitions:

• Grace: “The free and undeserved gift that God give us to respond to our vocation to become his adopted children.” It is more than just knowledge of sin.
• Justification: The gracious action of God which frees us from sin and communicates “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” (Rom 3:22)
• Sanctifying Grace: As sanctifying grace, God shares his divine life and friendship with us in a habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that enables the soul to live with God, to act by his love.
• Salvation: The forgiveness of sin and restoration of friendship with God, which can be done by God alone.
• Everlasting salvation: This must be your own term. Salvation is salvation. There will be no need for salvation in heaven. We are saved from our sins. Since sin cannot exist in heaven why would anyone in heaven need to be saved?

 

[polgas733]

I find your post extremely disturbing. As a Catholic, do you not know that we are Christians? We were the only Christian Church for 1500 years. This is a charge leveled at us by some other Christian denominations - that Catholics are not Christians. As a Catholic, please do not reinforce this fallacy.

you clearly misunderstood my post
the point I was trying to make was that the claim for “Christians”(members of Christianity) as the Church of Christ!

I was trying to point out how this is wrong and impossible.

 

[TEPO]

I’m not quite sure I agree with your definitions.

Following are the Catechism’s definitions:

• Grace: “The free and undeserved gift that God give us to respond to our vocation to become his adopted children.” It is more than just knowledge of sin.
• Justification: The gracious action of God which frees us from sin and communicates “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” (Rom 3:22)
• Sanctifying Grace: As sanctifying grace, God shares his divine life and friendship with us in a habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that enables the soul to live with God, to act by his love.
• Salvation: The forgiveness of sin and restoration of friendship with God, which can be done by God alone.
• Everlasting salvation: This must be your own term. Salvation is salvation. There will be no need for salvation in heaven. We are saved from our sins. Since sin cannot exist in heaven why would anyone in heaven need to be saved?

I was not actually attempting to define the terms though… I was just explaining the existence of salvation, and how it is acquired, in relationship to what I do know. This was just a little summary that I made… There is much much more than this!

Anyways, it looks like there are two terms in particular that you disagree with…

GRACE:
Grace to me is a supernatural gift from God… Charism, miracles, tongues, etc. are all considered special graces.
CCC para 2004 states: "Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; if service, in our serving; he who teaches, in his teaching; he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who contributes, in liberality; he who gives aid, with zeal; he who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.55 "
So apparently there are many many types of graces… I believe that it is acceptable to consider the acknowledgement of sin and the need for forgiveness as actual graces… Isn’t it?

Everlasting Salvation:
OOps… You’re right, I meant “Eternal Salvation”…
CCC para 847 States: “Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.”

I will admit I cannot find a real definition for this either… But I have done the best I can to understand it… I have come up with the following:
agapebiblestudy.com/charts/the%204%20different%20aspects%20of%20salvation.htm
“Sanctification: “Being made holy. The first sanctification takes place at baptism, by which the love of God is infused by the Holy Spirit (Romans 5:5). Newly baptized persons are holy because the Holy Trinity begins to dwell in their souls and they are pleasing to God. The second sanctification is a lifelong process in which a person already in the state of grace grows in the possession of grace and in likeness to God by faithfully corresponding with divine inspirations. The third sanctification takes place when a person enters heaven and becomes totally and irrevocably united with God in the beautific vision. (Etym. Latin sanctificare, ‘to make holy’.)” Catholic Dictionary p. 393; CCC # 703, 767, 819-827, 1540, 1989-99, 2001”

You say that: “sin cannot exist in heaven,” which is why there is no salvation inside heaven… As much as I agree with you on that, why then does the Church teach of a third sanctification, upon entering heaven?

If sanctification is one of the 4 parts of salvation, and sanctification is eternal, then consequently, wouldn’t we say that salvation is eternal? They go together… right?

 

[schaick]

Jesus died on the cross for the “forgiveness of sins”… That is what Salvation is…
There are 4 parts of Salvation… We must do them all as much as needed and in the right order -to be “saved”…

1. sanctification: To be made holy by Baptism.
2. redemption: This is where Jesus saved us on the cross.
3. forgiveness: Confession means sins are actually removed from the soul…
4. justification: True sorrow / Perfect Contrition.

agapebiblestudy.com/docum…0Salvation.htm

To be saved is to be given medicine. A Holy medicine that cures death.

Before you do those things isn’t there a step of believing- faith?

Justification by faith? Oh wait, is your justification -repentance?

Otherwise it sounds like rationalization- an excuse for ones actions:

jus·ti·fi·ca·tion 
–noun
1.a reason, fact, circumstance, or explanation that justifies or defends: His insulting you was ample justification for you to leave the party.
2.an act of justifying: The painter’s justification of his failure to finish on time didn’t impress me.
3.the state of being justified.
4.Also called justification by faith. Theology. the act of God whereby humankind is made or accounted just, or free from guilt or penalty of sin.

 

[JRKH]

Before you do those things isn’t there a step of believing- faith?

Justification by faith? Oh wait, is your justification -repentance?

Otherwise it sounds like rationalization- an excuse for ones actions:

jus·ti·fi·ca·tion 
–noun
1.a reason, fact, circumstance, or explanation that justifies or defends: His insulting you was ample justification for you to leave the party.
2.an act of justifying: The painter’s justification of his failure to finish on time didn’t impress me.
3.the state of being justified.
4.Also called justification by faith. Theology. the act of God whereby humankind is made or accounted just, or free from guilt or penalty of sin.

I wonder if this might help to clarify some things.

Belief, Grace, Faith, Love and Works are interwoven pieces. They cannot be separated. They can only be placed in “order”.

1. We begin with Grace. Grace is the supernatural foundation. The “seed” that God plants in every soul that enables it to find it’s way back to God.
2. Then comes Belief. We must believe in something before anything else. If we do not believe in God, then the seed of Grace will not grow.
3. After Belief comes Faith. The difference between belief and faith, is simply this: I may believe in the existence of banks, but do I have faith in them. Faith gets into trusting and believing in the promises of God and believing in Jesus Christ and salvation through doing the will of the Father. Learning and developing our faith is nurturing and allowing the seed of God’s grace to grow in us.
4. Then Comes Love. Jesus places Love as the Greatest and center of all of the Law and prophets. What we Love and covet is how we know “where our heart is”. If we Love God and wish to do His will, then we will Love our neighbor unselfishly and wish to act in ways that are pleasing to our love - who is God Himself.
5. Then comes Works. If we believe properly, that is we have a trusting belief, then works will necessarily follow. If works do not follow then there is a problem with one of the above.

I hope some of this helps you.

Peace
James

 

[tweetymom]

I wonder if this might help to clarify some things.

Belief, Grace, Faith, Love and Works are interwoven pieces. They cannot be separated. They can only be placed in “order”.

1. We begin with Grace. Grace is the supernatural foundation. The “seed” that God plants in every soul that enables it to find it’s way back to God.
2. Then comes Belief. We must believe in something before anything else. If we do not believe in God, then the seed of Grace will not grow.
3. After Belief comes Faith. The difference between belief and faith, is simply this: I may believe in the existence of banks, but do I have faith in them. Faith gets into trusting and believing in the promises of God and believing in Jesus Christ and salvation through doing the will of the Father. Learning and developing our faith is nurturing and allowing the seed of God’s grace to grow in us.
4. Then Comes Love. Jesus places Love as the Greatest and center of all of the Law and prophets. What we Love and covet is how we know “where our heart is”. If we Love God and wish to do His will, then we will Love our neighbor unselfishly and wish to act in ways that are pleasing to our love - who is God Himself.
5. Then comes Works. If we believe properly, that is we have a trusting belief, then works will necessarily follow. If works do not follow then there is a problem with one of the above.

I hope some of this helps you.

Peace
James

You hit the nail on the head. Un fortunally a lot of people forget the love part and do not use it often enough!

 

[Carlan]

Just asking the question?

Please provide support for your assertions.

AP, if you are sincere in wanting an Apostolic answer to your question. The revelation of Christ. May I suggest a cover to cover reading and study of the Catechism of the Catholic Church… The Church Christ began on the ‘Day of Pentecost’ after his Resurrection.God Bless, Peace, Carlan

 

[jmcrae]

you clearly misunderstood my post
the point I was trying to make was that the claim for “Christians”(members of Christianity) as the Church of Christ!

I think you should qualify that you are referring to Protestant Christianity, or non-Catholic Christianity.

Christianity proper is the Catholic Church. The Liturgy is called “Christian Prayer” not “Catholic Prayer,” because Catholicism is non-heretical and non-schismatic Christianity.

 

[Carlan]

I wonder if this might help to clarify some things.

Belief, Grace, Faith, Love and Works are interwoven pieces. They cannot be separated. They can only be placed in “order”.

1. We begin with Grace. Grace is the supernatural foundation. The “seed” that God plants in every soul that enables it to find it’s way back to God.
2. Then comes Belief. We must believe in something before anything else. If we do not believe in God, then the seed of Grace will not grow.
3. After Belief comes Faith. The difference between belief and faith, is simply this: I may believe in the existence of banks, but do I have faith in them. Faith gets into trusting and believing in the promises of God and believing in Jesus Christ and salvation through doing the will of the Father. Learning and developing our faith is nurturing and allowing the seed of God’s grace to grow in us.
4. Then Comes Love. Jesus places Love as the Greatest and center of all of the Law and prophets. What we Love and covet is how we know “where our heart is”. If we Love God and wish to do His will, then we will Love our neighbor unselfishly and wish to act in ways that are pleasing to our love - who is God Himself.
5. Then comes Works. If we believe properly, that is we have a trusting belief, then works will necessarily follow. If works do not follow then there is a problem with one of the above.

I hope some of this helps you.

Peace
James

Yes, James it is a life long process, as Catholic we believe the Father’s actual grace is a gift for all of his children to reach out to him in their sin. By His grace, if we accept the redemption Jesus bought for us on the cross by faith, and if we are Baptized by water and the Holy Spirit in the Trinity formula, (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) Baptism being an indelible mark on our souls, we are then justifyed. Justification is imparted through Baptism. Cleansed of all sin we are given the gift of sanctifying grace by which we become new persons and begin to grow in the holiness God the Father requires of us. It is a life long process and as Scripture tells us if we persevere till the end we will be with the Father forever in heaven.God bless everyone, and peace to all, Carlan

 

[jmcrae]

Please provide evidence these beliefs are mandatory for salvation. Thanks.

Instead of just going for minimalism, what if you focus your whole mind, spirit, soul, and activity on pleasing God the best you know how, every moment of every day.

What do you need to believe - the teachings of the Church. Why - because they were given by Jesus Christ. If we “believe in” Christ, then it follows that we trust Him to be able to establish the Church and protect it from teaching error.

 

[AmateurPianist]

I wonder if this might help to clarify some things.

Belief, Grace, Faith, Love and Works are interwoven pieces. They cannot be separated. They can only be placed in “order”.

1. We begin with Grace. Grace is the supernatural foundation. The “seed” that God plants in every soul that enables it to find it’s way back to God.
2. Then comes Belief. We must believe in something before anything else. If we do not believe in God, then the seed of Grace will not grow.
3. After Belief comes Faith. The difference between belief and faith, is simply this: I may believe in the existence of banks, but do I have faith in them. Faith gets into trusting and believing in the promises of God and believing in Jesus Christ and salvation through doing the will of the Father. Learning and developing our faith is nurturing and allowing the seed of God’s grace to grow in us.
4. Then Comes Love. Jesus places Love as the Greatest and center of all of the Law and prophets. What we Love and covet is how we know “where our heart is”. If we Love God and wish to do His will, then we will Love our neighbor unselfishly and wish to act in ways that are pleasing to our love - who is God Himself.
5. Then comes Works. If we believe properly, that is we have a trusting belief, then works will necessarily follow. If works do not follow then there is a problem with one of the above.

I hope some of this helps you.

Peace
James

I actually like this and have no issues with this. You sound more like Jimmy Akin here.

Now you have to convince your fellow Catholics on this thread the truth of what you are saying.

Now this thread has sort of veered of topic from what I intended, and at the same time I have lost my energy for a while…so God bless.

 

[JRKH]

I actually like this and have no issues with this. You sound more like Jimmy Akin here.

Now you have to convince your fellow Catholics on this thread the truth of what you are saying.

I really doubt if my “fellow catholics” will have any problem with this. There is nothing the above that conflicts with Catholic teaching. If it did I would not have posted it.
As I have said before, we often get too tied up in the details that we can miss the core issues.
In an earlier post I mentioned how Christ reduces all of the Law and Prophets to the two Great Commandments of Love. Of course - even that assumes a belief in God and the Christian message. So - while what things are essential for salvation do not change, we can sometimes lose site of the basics because they have been a part of us for so long. Then we get caught up in all of the “detail”.
I think that this is one of the things that got the pharasees off track. They lost sight of the essentials of the Law - The justice because they were “Jews” and part of the “elect of God”. They lost ight of the essentials and got caught up in the detail and that led them to many errors.

Now this thread has sort of veered of topic from what I intended, and at the same time I have lost my energy for a while…so God bless.

I know how that is.
God bless

Peace
James

 

[paul_c]

I wonder if this might help to clarify some things.

Belief, Grace, Faith, Love and Works are interwoven pieces. They cannot be separated. They can only be placed in “order”.

1. We begin with Grace. Grace is the supernatural foundation. The “seed” that God plants in every soul that enables it to find it’s way back to God.
2. Then comes Belief. We must believe in something before anything else. If we do not believe in God, then the seed of Grace will not grow.
3. After Belief comes Faith. The difference between belief and faith, is simply this: I may believe in the existence of banks, but do I have faith in them. Faith gets into trusting and believing in the promises of God and believing in Jesus Christ and salvation through doing the will of the Father. Learning and developing our faith is nurturing and allowing the seed of God’s grace to grow in us.
4. Then Comes Love. Jesus places Love as the Greatest and center of all of the Law and prophets. What we Love and covet is how we know “where our heart is”. If we Love God and wish to do His will, then we will Love our neighbor unselfishly and wish to act in ways that are pleasing to our love - who is God Himself.
5. Then comes Works. If we believe properly, that is we have a trusting belief, then works will necessarily follow. If works do not follow then there is a problem with one of the above.

I hope some of this helps you.

Peace
James

I have no problem with what you wrote in concept. It does occur to me, however, that your terminology isn’t standard. What you are describing in essence is the theological virtues:Faith, Hope and Charity(love). Check this out for the definitions:scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a7.htm#II

As you can see, what you call belief Is in fact normally called Faith
What you call Faith is actually Hope
and what you separate as Love and Works, is actually Charity all wrapped into one.

What you say is absolutely correct, but I point you to this page simply to validate it as authentic Catholic teaching and also to make it more accessible to others by using standard terminology.

 

[JRKH]

I have no problem with what you wrote in concept. It does occur to me, however, that your terminology isn’t standard. What you are describing in essence is the theological virtues:Faith, Hope and Charity(love). Check this out for the definitions:scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a7.htm#II

As you can see, what you call belief Is in fact normally called Faith
What you call Faith is actually Hope
and what you separate as Love and Works, is actually Charity all wrapped into one.

What you say is absolutely correct, but I point you to this page simply to validate it as authentic Catholic teaching and also to make it more accessible to others by using standard terminology.

Thank you for both the link and for the support.

Actaully I’m sort of glad that my “terminology” is a bit different than the “official” teminology because so often we find ourselves talking to non-catholics and can be easily tripped up by the usage of “terms”. I think that I wrote this heirarchy as part of a response to a “faith alone” or “faith vs works” thread.

It is written somewhere, (I think in Paul), that, “…You say you believe? Even the devil believes in Jesus and trembles…”. So it appears that there is a fundamental difference betweensimple “belief” and what the Church defines as “belief” and what most of the world will “read” as belief.

I must admit that I struggle with the theological differences between what is called belief, and what is called faith. That is how I came up with the heirarchy that I posted above. I was trying to distinguish, for myself, what it really means to have “Faith” as opposed to simply “believing”. Believing can be a fully rational and intellectual assent, but faith - faith is more. It is internalized belief. It is trust. It is making belief a part of yourself and your very being.
If I “believe” in Christ, do I then have the “faith and Trust” sufficient to die a torturous death for that belief? I fear that I do not have the strength.
If I “believe” in Christ, do I have the desire and the will to work at growing in Holiness? Do I truly Love Him, believe on His promises, internalize all that He teaches? I fear I do not have the strength.

You see my dillema?
Faith in a financial instiution means not just that I believe it, but am willing to “trust it” with my “temporal treasure”. Faith in God, faith in Christ means, not just “believing” but being willing to “trust Him” with my “eternal treasure”, my very Life.

It is a struggle we all go through on a daily basis I know. My listing is just my best attempt at defining it for myself and in terms as I understand them.

Peace
James

 

[paul_c]

Thank you for both the link and for the support.

Actaully I’m sort of glad that my “terminology” is a bit different than the “official” teminology because so often we find ourselves talking to non-catholics and can be easily tripped up by the usage of “terms”. I think that I wrote this heirarchy as part of a response to a “faith alone” or “faith vs works” thread.

It is written somewhere, (I think in Paul), that, “…You say you believe? Even the devil believes in Jesus and trembles…”. So it appears that there is a fundamental difference betweensimple “belief” and what the Church defines as “belief” and what most of the world will “read” as belief.

I must admit that I struggle with the theological differences between what is called belief, and what is called faith. That is how I came up with the heirarchy that I posted above. I was trying to distinguish, for myself, what it really means to have “Faith” as opposed to simply “believing”. Believing can be a fully rational and intellectual assent, but faith - faith is more. It is internalized belief. It is trust. It is making belief a part of yourself and your very being.
If I “believe” in Christ, do I then have the “faith and Trust” sufficient to die a torturous death for that belief? I fear that I do not have the strength.
If I “believe” in Christ, do I have the desire and the will to work at growing in Holiness? Do I truly Love Him, believe on His promises, internalize all that He teaches? I fear I do not have the strength.

You see my dillema?
Faith in a financial instiution means not just that I believe it, but am willing to “trust it” with my “temporal treasure”. Faith in God, faith in Christ means, not just “believing” but being willing to “trust Him” with my “eternal treasure”, my very Life.

It is a struggle we all go through on a daily basis I know. My listing is just my best attempt at defining it for myself and in terms as I understand them.

Peace
James

The act of trusting in Jesus is what we call Hope. . They are synonymns. Just as Love and charity are synonymns in the teaching of the Church. I understand the issue of creating nomenclature that works for you. I do the same all the time, but then eventually someone puts me on to statndard nomenclature so that I can talk more readily with people that have already plowed through this ground. I think doing what you are doing is just part of the process.

By the way, your post was helpful to me, because while I recognized what you were talking about as the theological virtues, I never considered them the way you outlined here as steps in teh economy of salvation. I usually discuss it in this order:

1. God grants you sufficient grace to be saved by Faith through baptism
2. If you stay in the state of grace by doing the will of God, loving him and your neighbors, until you die, you will go to heaven
3. If you fall from Grace through sin, you can regain saving grace through the sacrament of reconciliation.

I guess I never put 2 and 2 together to recognize that it was the theological virtues that were in play here. So thank you.

 

[Carlan]

The act of trusting in Jesus is what we call Hope. . They are synonymns. Just as Love and charity are synonymns in the teaching of the Church. I understand the issue of creating nomenclature that works for you. I do the same all the time, but then eventually someone puts me on to statndard nomenclature so that I can talk more readily with people that have already plowed through this ground. I think doing what you are doing is just part of the process.

By the way, your post was helpful to me, because while I recognized what you were talking about as the theological virtues, I never considered them the way you outlined here as steps in teh economy of salvation. I usually discuss it in this order:

1. God grants you sufficient grace to be saved by Faith through baptism
2. If you stay in the state of grace by doing the will of God, loving him and your neighbors, until you die, you will go to heaven
3. If you fall from Grace through sin, you can regain saving grace through the sacrament of reconciliation.

I guess I never put 2 and 2 together to recognize that it was the theological virtues that were in play here. So thank you.

I thank everyone, all of the above explanations are good and give us a better understanding
of the question:thumbsup::thumbsup:Love and Peace, Carlan

 

[JRKH]

The act of trusting in Jesus is what we call Hope. . They are synonymns. Just as Love and charity are synonymns in the teaching of the Church. I understand the issue of creating nomenclature that works for you. I do the same all the time, but then eventually someone puts me on to statndard nomenclature so that I can talk more readily with people that have already plowed through this ground. I think doing what you are doing is just part of the process.

By the way, your post was helpful to me, because while I recognized what you were talking about as the theological virtues, I never considered them the way you outlined here as steps in teh economy of salvation. I usually discuss it in this order:

1. God grants you sufficient grace to be saved by Faith through baptism
2. If you stay in the state of grace by doing the will of God, loving him and your neighbors, until you die, you will go to heaven
3. If you fall from Grace through sin, you can regain saving grace through the sacrament of reconciliation.

I guess I never put 2 and 2 together to recognize that it was the theological virtues that were in play here. So thank you.

You’re welcome.
I am always learning new things here. I am greatful to all of the wonderful and patient people here.
My ability to come to this state is largely a product of what I have learned here, especially in the apologetic discussions with non-catholics.

What a journey.

Peace
James

 

[TEPO]

Before you do those things isn’t there a step of believing- faith?

Justification by faith? Oh wait, is your justification -repentance?

Otherwise it sounds like rationalization- an excuse for ones actions:

jus·ti·fi·ca·tion 
–noun
1.a reason, fact, circumstance, or explanation that justifies or defends: His insulting you was ample justification for you to leave the party.
2.an act of justifying: The painter’s justification of his failure to finish on time didn’t impress me.
3.the state of being justified.
4.Also called justification by faith. Theology. the act of God whereby humankind is made or accounted just, or free from guilt or penalty of sin.

agapebiblestudy.com/

I got most of my information at the above link… It is a reputable catholic organization. You can view the “4 parts of salvation” plus more…