So just what are the beliefs that are mandatory for salvation

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JRKH said:
I wonder if this might help to clarify some things.

Belief, Grace, Faith, Love and Works are interwoven pieces. They cannot be separated. They can only be placed in “order”.
  1. We begin with Grace. Grace is the supernatural foundation. The “seed” that God plants in every soul that enables it to find it’s way back to God.
  2. Then comes Belief. We must believe in something before anything else. If we do not believe in God, then the seed of Grace will not grow.
  3. After Belief comes Faith. The difference between belief and faith, is simply this: I may believe in the existence of banks, but do I have faith in them. Faith gets into trusting and believing in the promises of God and believing in Jesus Christ and salvation through doing the will of the Father. Learning and developing our faith is nurturing and allowing the seed of God’s grace to grow in us.
  4. Then Comes Love. Jesus places Love as the Greatest and center of all of the Law and prophets. What we Love and covet is how we know “where our heart is”. If we Love God and wish to do His will, then we will Love our neighbor unselfishly and wish to act in ways that are pleasing to our love - who is God Himself.
  5. Then comes Works. If we believe properly, that is we have a trusting belief, then works will necessarily follow. If works do not follow then there is a problem with one of the above.
I hope some of this helps you.

Peace
James
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Well said, James! How are you doing my friend? (Still looking for sunken treasure?)

😉

A couple of thoughts:

I wonder if Grace is a kind or type of Love. For all Grace is Love, but perhaps not all Love is Grace? It might help us to understand if you define what you think might be the difference between the two.

I wonder too if Faith is a kind or type of Belief. For all Faith is belief, but maybe not all Belief is Faith? Once again, suggesting a definition of the two might do.

🙂
 
paul_c said:
The act of trusting in Jesus is what we call Hope. . They are synonymns. Just as Love and charity are synonymns in the teaching of the Church. I understand the issue of creating nomenclature that works for you. I do the same all the time, but then eventually someone puts me on to statndard nomenclature so that I can talk more readily with people that have already plowed through this ground. I think doing what you are doing is just part of the process.

…
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Paul:

Please forgive me for intruding, but I find your idea fascinating! I’ve never considered Hope the same as Faith. Please let me ask you this: Are you saying there is absolutely no difference between the two? or do you think it more likely true that there are differences, but that Faith and Hope have something in common in that they are both kinds or types of Belief?
 
spockrates said:
Well said, James! How are you doing my friend? (Still looking for sunken treasure?)

😉

A couple of thoughts:

I wonder if Grace is a kind or type of Love. For all Grace is Love, but perhaps not all Love is Grace? It might help us to understand if you define what you think might be the difference between the two.

I wonder too if Faith is a kind or type of Belief. For all Faith is belief, but maybe not all Belief is Faith? Once again, suggesting a definition of the two might do.

🙂
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The list I posted was in trying to answer the larger question about what “beliefs” are ncessary for salvation. Perhaps you could give us your thoughts on this question from the OP.

As to Grace being a type of Love - Everything from the Father is a “type of Love”. Even “adversity” is a type of Love when seen as coming from our Loving Father.

As to Belief and Faith - that is what I have been strugling with.
Paulc seems to be on this wavelenght too. Perhaps he can expound a bit and enlighten us both.

Peace
James
 
spockrates said:
Paul:

Please forgive me for intruding, but I find your idea fascinating! I’ve never considered Hope the same as Faith. Please let me ask you this: Are you saying there is absolutely no difference between the two? or do you think it more likely true that there are differences, but that Faith and Hope have something in common in that they are both kinds or types of Belief?
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Faith is defined as believing that Jesus is Lord
Hope is believing that Jesus will save you if you follow his example.
Love is acting as Jesus called you to act. The word Charity is used interchangeably with Love.

These are called the Theological virtues and they all work together in the economy of salvation. They are discussed most famously in 1Corinthians 13.
 
fms said:
The Apostles’ Creed
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Faith, Believing in what cannot be seen.

Hope, Receiving what that faith will give us after this life now is over, The Resurrection.:heaven::harp: Peace, Carlan,
 
JRKH said:
… As to Grace being a type of Love - Everything from the Father is a “type of Love”. Even “adversity” is a type of Love when seen as coming from our Loving Father.
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You might be right. But I wonder about some acts. God’s judgment of those condemned to Hell, for example. While it might be loving to protect you and me from those condemned, and while it must be just for God to allow such condemnation, don’t you think it’s not an act of love for those condemned?
JRKH said:
As to Belief and Faith - that is what I have been strugling with.
Paulc seems to be on this wavelenght too. Perhaps he can expound a bit and enlighten us both.

Peace
James
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Yes, I very much want to hear Paul’s thoughts on this.

👍
 
paul_c said:
Faith is defined as believing that Jesus is Lord
Hope is believing that Jesus will save you if you follow his example.
Love is acting as Jesus called you to act. The word Charity is used interchangeably with Love.

These are called the Theological virtues and they all work together in the economy of salvation. They are discussed most famously in 1Corinthians 13.
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And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

(1 Corinthians 13:13)

Judging from what you say, Paul, it sounds like you believe St. Paul the Apostle is defining Faith and Hope thus:

F = the belief that Jesus is God

H = the belief that Jesus will save you

where

F = Faith

and

H = Hope

So Faith and Hope are both kinds of belief. In other words, you appear to be saying that

B = F

and

B = H

where

B = Belief

And while all F is B, not all B is F; and while all H is B, not all B is H.

But you still have not answered whether you think they might be the same or different. Whether they are different makes a difference, I believe. For if you are saying Faith and Hope are beliefs in different truths, then

F http://www.bioinfo.de/isb/2003030029/not-equal.jpg H

and

H http://www.bioinfo.de/isb/2003030029/not-equal.jpg F

The upshot is that one could have no hope that Jesus is God, for belief that Jesus is God is Faith rather than Hope. Another consequence is that one could have no Faith that Jesus will save one by following His example, because belief that Jesus saves is Hope instead of Faith.

However, you cannot be saying that, can you? What you must really mean is that Faith and Hope are different words meaning the exact same thing. Don’t you?

🤷
 
Carlan said:
Faith, Believing in what cannot be seen.

Hope, Receiving what that faith will give us after this life now is over, The Resurrection.:heaven::harp: Peace, Carlan,
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Carlan:

I believe the writer of Hebrews would say amen to your definition of Faith:

Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

(Hebrews 11:1)

but would he agree with your definition of Hope?

For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has?

(Romans 8:24)

If we do not hope for what we already have, then isn’t hope what we have now, but will not have then?

🤷
 
AmateurPianist said:
So just what are the beliefs that are mandatory for salvation?

Just asking the question?

Please provide support for your assertions.
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My thought is that we cannot possibly know what is a belief that is mandatory for salvation if we don’t know what belief itself is. That’s one reason why I’m asking Paul and James and others do define Faith, and Hope, which are the specific kinds of belief related to salvation. What are your thoughts, Pianist?

🙂
 
spockrates said:
Carlan:

I believe the writer of Hebrews would say amen to your definition of Faith:

Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

(Hebrews 11:1)

but would he agree with your definition of Hope?

For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has?

(Romans 8:24)

If we do not hope for what we already have, then isn’t hope what we have now, but will not have then?

🤷
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Mr Spock, A Christians faith is believing that we will rec’ salvation , we have been given the means of gaining that salvation , our hope is in receiving that which we have not yet rec
'ed salvation and resurrection, Stop complicating things! :p;)😃 Peace, Carlan
 
spockrates said:
You might be right. But I wonder about some acts. God’s judgment of those condemned to Hell, for example. While it might be loving to protect you and me from those condemned, and while it must be just for God to allow such condemnation, don’t you think it’s not an act of love for those condemned?
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Suppose we use a different term for Judgement and Condemnation. Suppose we use one of todays popular terms. - Logical consequences.
God has out of His love provided us with Free will. He will not force us to Love Him and to desire to be with Him.
Out of Love he has provided choices for us. He has provided us with a clear path and a clear choice. The path of Love or the Path of Hate. He has even provided us with an example of perfection in Christ Jesus Our Lord. - BUT He does not force us to choose one or the other. Thus when we Choose to deny Him we Choose Hell.
God, being our Loving Father, accepts our Choice and gives us what we ask for.
So do you think that this Loving Father is being to lenient and should “force” anyone to go to heaven when they don’t want to??
 
The devil/satan believes/knows there is a GOD.

Faith is surrendering to your belief.
 
Hear the message:

Romans 10
17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

Faith remains when all hope fails:

Romans 4
18Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”[d] 19Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah’s womb was also dead. 20Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.”
 
JRKH said:
Suppose we use a different term for Judgement and Condemnation. Suppose we use one of todays popular terms. - Logical consequences.
God has out of His love provided us with Free will. He will not force us to Love Him and to desire to be with Him.
Out of Love he has provided choices for us. He has provided us with a clear path and a clear choice. The path of Love or the Path of Hate. He has even provided us with an example of perfection in Christ Jesus Our Lord. - BUT He does not force us to choose one or the other. Thus when we Choose to deny Him we Choose Hell.
God, being our Loving Father, accepts our Choice and gives us what we ask for.
So do you think that this Loving Father is being to lenient and should “force” anyone to go to heaven when they don’t want to??
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What about this: A man loves Jesus with all his heart and tries his best to act according to the bible , but sometimes: say one time, every 3 months he commits a terribly evil act…
Afterwards, the man spends a week feeling regret and sorrow…
Is this man choosing hell or Jesus?

-also-

everybody has addictions, whether it be food, laziness, drugs, alcohol, sex, etc… So how do we know we are forgiven for committing an act of addiction?
 
crazzeto said:
Which I suppose is why St James took time out to say “…even the devils believe…”, making a specific and direct comparison between “the devils” i.e. daemons beliefs and our own.
James2:19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.
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And this is where I get into the thing of trying to grow in faith/belief so that my “belief” is so incorporated into my being that it takes on all of the necessary characteristics of True belief, Love, Hope, Trust, works of charity etc. For without these internalized traits our belief is nothing more than an intellectual excersize.
Perhaps that is why James, in the very next verse says this:
But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? (Jms 2:20

Is James not telling us that simple belief is nothing - even the devils believe - but they cannot act on that belief because their natures are to hate and not Love.
There is more than just belief. There is an acceptance an internalization and a turning away from sin toward God -Toward Love and to the Works of Love.

Peace
James
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