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Vile_Servant
Guest
Follow Christ.
So just what are the beliefs that are mandatory for salvation
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spockrates
Guest
Fascinating! That’s one thing I like about you, James–you have a way of raising my eyebrow!
Please let me ask you this:
A fair judge is one who is impartial. One might say that his actions are governed by love of the law and by love of equity, but not love of the one who willfully and without remorse breaks the law and commits murder or some other heinous act. If a jury finds such a murderer guilty, and a judge sentences the criminal to life in prison, would you say his decision is one of love for the condemned, or one of justice, or one of both?
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JRKH
Guest
Have you not heard the saying “Hate the sin, Love the sinner.”?Fascinating! That’s one thing I like about you, James–you have a way of raising my eyebrow!
Please let me ask you this:
A fair judge is one who is impartial. One might say that his actions are governed by love of the law and by love of equity, but not love of the one who willfully and without remorse breaks the law and commits murder or some other heinous act. If a jury finds such a murderer guilty, and a judge sentences the criminal to life in prison, would you say his decision is one of love for the condemned, or one of justice, or one of both?
A juror certainly could look at the evidence in a case and vote guilty while at the same time feeling sorrow at the probable loss of the defendant’s soul. Why? Because of the Juror’s Love for God and Love for his neighbor for the Love of God. The Juror would wish that the defendant would repent of his sins so that he may yet enter heaven. The Judge can wish for the same thing.
Both are, in effect, not condemning out of hate for the person, but out of sorrow for the persons choice.
Now that we have looked at a scenerio that is more “Old Testement” “Law” based, - Lets turn this into something more personal - since that is a better way to look at the NT Christian condition.
A Parent makes rules and a Child - a teenager who should no better - defies those rules. The Parent punishes the Child. Does the parent punish the Child out of hate? Or rather does the parent administer “justice” to the Child out of Love and for the peurpose of correcting the Child’s behavior.
To take this to the next step - let us say that the child does not reform and when he comes of age, he tells the parents that he wants nothing more to do with them. The child then moves across country and has no further contact with the parents.
Do the parents, sho Love their Child, stop Loving him? Do they stop praying for him? Do they stop wishing for him to come home? Or rather do they allow the child the freedom to make his own mistakes while standing ready to welcome him home with open arms like the story of the prodigal son in th eBible.
If the Child does not return home and instead dies a sinful death do the parents not weep for the loss of their child, even though they realize that he received Justice for his actions?
God’s Love is like this. It is unconditional. It is we who put conditions on OUR love for God though. and it is OUR conditional Love that seperates us from God.
Peace
James
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spockrates
Guest
So sin forces us to make a choice between loving God and His kids, or loving the sinner who desires to do His kids harm. By judging the sinner, we are not loving him, although we are loving his potential victims and we are treating him as his actions deserve. I think reason tells me this is true? Do you?
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spockrates
Guest
Yes, I understand. God’s love for those who will accept it is like this. However, God’s judgment for those who won’t accept His love is like the judge sentencing the criminal to life in prison or even death. Perhaps we might agree on the following?
God’s potential love for everyone is unconditional.
God’s actual love for those actually loved is conditional.
What are your thoughts, my friend?
J
JRKH
Guest
Hate the sin Love the sinner.So sin forces us to make a choice between loving God and His kids, or loving the sinner who desires to do His kids harm. By judging the sinner, we are not loving him, although we are loving his potential victims and we are treating him as his actions deserve. I think reason tells me this is true? Do you?
Peace
James
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JRKH
Guest
It seems that you do not grasp the idea that a judge/jailor/executioner could Love a person even while walking with that person to the place of execution.
That this judge/jailor/executioner can be praying the entire time of God’s mercy on this person. For the repentance of this person and the redemption of his/her soul.
God IS like this. He stands ready with arms outstretched in pure and unconditional Love to each and all of us, waiting for us to repent so that he might welcome us into His Loving Arms.
I do not see this as God’s Love being either “potential” or as “conditional”.
What I do see is our response to God’s Love being “potential” and “conditional”. (what’s in it for me?)
Peace
James
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jmcrae
Guest
Love is not a feeling; it is the action of doing what is good for the person who is loved, as well as what is good for the rest of the people who are also around.
Taking an unrepentant murderer to the gas chamber may well be what is best for that person (so that he cannot commit any more sins, and compound his punishments in Hell) as well as for the rest of society (so that he can’t inflict any more harm on innocent persons).
Taking an unrepentant murderer to the gas chamber may well be what is best for that person (so that he cannot commit any more sins, and compound his punishments in Hell) as well as for the rest of society (so that he can’t inflict any more harm on innocent persons).
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spockrates
Guest
Then it is good to have someone who knows what I’m going through! For, like me, you don’t seem to understand something. What you fail to realize is that *everything *is (1) potential and possible, or (2) actual and existent, or (3) non-existent and impossible. All things–real or imagined–fit into one of these three classifications. So if what you say is true–that God’s love is neither potential nor actual–then the only possibility left us is that His love does not exist!
But you and I cannot seriously consider that as a possibility. Can we? Therefore we are forced to concede that God’s love is either (a) potential, or (b) actual, or (c) both. Which of these three do you think is the actual truth? I’m liking (c).
A
alitaptap
Guest
I believe that Salvation is not about going to Heaven. I believe it is about bringing Heaven down on earth, especially to those who are suffering e.i. the poor, the sick, the abandoned, and the spiritually lost.
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JRKH
Guest
Let me see if we agree on the terms hereThen it is good to have someone who knows what I’m going through! For, like me, you don’t seem to understand something. What you fail to realize is that *everything *is (1) potential and possible, or (2) actual and existent, or (3) non-existent and impossible. All things–real or imagined–fit into one of these three classifications. So if what you say is true–that God’s love is neither potential nor actual–then the only possibility left us is that His love does not exist!
But you and I cannot seriously consider that as a possibility. Can we? Therefore we are forced to concede that God’s love is either (a) potential, or (b) actual, or (c) both. Which of these three do you think is the actual truth? I’m liking (c).
a) Potential - possible but not yet existing
b) Actual - already existing
If these are what you mean by these terms then your “c” is not a possiblity for I don’t see something as being both potential and actual at the same time.
Flour milk and eggs exist and are not a cake but rather a potential cake, but once they are a cake the potential is gone and the actual has arrived.
God’s Love is not potential it is actual.
“For God so loved the world (that is all of us), that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.” (Jn 3:16)
So I say again -
What I do see is our response to God’s Love being “potential” and “conditional”. (what’s in it for me?)
Peace
James
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JRKH
Guest
So let me ask you my dear friend -
Do you Love God unconditionally??
Perhaps this should be another thread.
Peace
James
Do you Love God unconditionally??
Perhaps this should be another thread.
Peace
James
A
alitaptap
Guest
And if you do, how is your relationship with God?
J
JRKH
Guest
These are questions we must spend the rest of our sojourn on Earth trying to answer.
Peace
James
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spockrates
Guest
If you are saying, James that I cannot have my potential cake and eat it too, then I’d have to agree with you!
But you appear to be saying something more fascinating than that; you appear to be saying that something can never be both potential and actual. So let’s test that theory with the cake you bake when it comes out of the oven: Let’s say you’ve made the most divine angel food. You take a bite and exclaim that you’ve never tasted anything as heavenly and offer me a taste. I take one bite, and then rudely spit it out and shout, “Yuck! I HATE angel food cake!” Now the cake is actually good to you, but only potentially good to any random taste tester. Thus when it comes to tastiness, your cake has both potentiality and actuality.
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The question to answer then is this this: Is love more like the combined ingredients that make a cake, or is it more like the desire one has for a cake?
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spockrates
Guest
I wonder if this was the question our resurrected Lord was asking the Peter who denied Him?
The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Feed my sheep.”
(John 21:17)
Was He asking Peter if he loved Him conditionally or unconditionally? I suppose that depends on whether Christ met any conditions to deserve Peter’s love. Do you think He did?
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spockrates
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JRKH
Guest
The question to answer then is this this: Is love more like the combined ingredients that make a cake, or is it more like the desire one has for a cake?If you are saying, James that I cannot have my potential cake and eat it too, then I’d have to agree with you!
But you appear to be saying something more fascinating than that; you appear to be saying that something can never be both potential and actual. So let’s test that theory with the cake you bake when it comes out of the oven: Let’s say you’ve made the most divine angel food. You take a bite and exclaim that you’ve never tasted anything as heavenly and offer me a taste. I take one bite, and then rudely spit it out and shout, “Yuck! I HATE angel food cake!” Now the cake is actually good to you, but only potentially good to any random taste tester. Thus when it comes to tastiness, your cake has both potentiality and actuality.
God’s Love is - We do not dispute that. Therefore what we, as sojourners, must look into is how receptive we are to that Love.
Peace
James
M
MyRdmrLvs
Guest
Revelation 1 : 19
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MyRdmrLvs
Guest
YUP!well in order to reach salvation, one needs to be in the right church don’t they?
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