So many Catholics leaving the church

[Church_Militant]

Here’s what Protestants do better to foster community:

Which completely ignores the gross division of interpretations, insider politics and family nepotism that I have witnessed in my time among them.

1. **Greeters **

Our parish has 'em all over the place…at every Mass.

1. Small group ministries. In the same way that Jesus discipled a group of twelve, a church cannot just meet as one big group.

We got this too. Many different small groups meeting all year long for Bible study, RCIA, and a host of other excellent study opportunities.

1. Easier for lay people to actively participate.

We have this too. There’s more things to be involved in than anyone can imagine and new opportunities are in the bulletin every week**.
**

1. Meal or hangout after the service.

Gee…got this one too. breakfast after daily Mass every day and the early Mass on Sunday.

Wednesday night dinners by our Knights of Columbus (who are incredibly good cooks) offered at a very low price and no one has to bring anything or clean up. The fellowship is terrific.

1. **Developed college ministries. Because college is an onslaught of secular liberalism. **

Gee…and we have Fellowship of Catholic University Students which is run by lay minsters who are actually supported by our parishioners.

1. Why stop at college campuses? Why not go to malls and stores, and pass out Bibles? Why not just flat out approach strangers, and ask them if we can talk to them about God? Isn’t saving people the most important job of all, the Great Commission?? For Protestants, evangelism is paramount. But I don’t see Catholics even passing out the Bible or the Catechism, anywhere!

If you say so, but that sure flies in the face of all the Catholic tracts that I personally share whenever and wherever I can, not to mention St. Paul Street Evangelization which does exactly this kind of thing and is being blessed with lots of success.

1. Developed young adult services.

We have Edge, Lifeteen , and other things going on for them.

1. **Pop culture. **

Yeah, it’s lame. But look at how many Protestants have been affected by the greatest Protestant musicians like Steven Curtis Chapman. His concerts are ministries in themselves, and people join in and sing along, worshiping along with him. How many have been converted because of his inspiring music? Today, we have Hillsong. Hillsong churches and music are doing wonders for Protestantism around the world. Where is the Catholic equivalent?You don’t watch EWTN and see the great Catholic musicians they have?

Moreover, all that stuff in n-C communities feeds on and to the emotionalist spiritual junk food that is so prevalent within n-C Christianity. The common comment from participants being something like " You can really feel the Holy Spirit." which basically leaves those people emotional cripples when serious difficulties comes along. It’s like an emotional addiction.

If you find that your own parish is lacking in some of these areas then perhaps you need to step up and work with them to meet these needs. You could start with St. Paul Street Evangelization and build from there.

 

[TimothyH]

I take issue with the idea that “so many Catholics” are leaving the Church. I don’t see it from where I sit.

My parish had 2400 people on our campus for the the 4:00 PM Christmas Eve Mass. Over 160 were confirmed this year. In 2009 more than 17 million people entered the Catholic Church. That’s more than than entire Southern Baptist Convention.

I disagree with the entire premise of this thread.

-Tim-

 

[Magdalena59]

I take issue with the idea that “so many Catholics” are leaving the Church. I don’t see it from where I sit.

My parish had 2400 people on our campus for the the 4:00 PM Christmas Eve Mass. Over 160 were confirmed this year. In 2009 more than 17 million people entered the Catholic Church. That’s more than than entire Southern Baptist Convention.

I disagree with the entire premise of this thread.

-Tim-

I agree with you. Good points.

 

[CaliLobo]

For those that responded to my 13 item list, I was surprised to get answers that “Catholics have it too.” I guess Protestants and Catholics have different mental pictures of what their ideal church ministry looks like.

Why have I left Protestantism then? Because I no longer agree with Sola Scriptura. I also lost many Protestant friends over the years, and Protestant community these days isn’t very deep to me. I’m the type that is not amused easily as well, so I don’t get as excited by worship bands as I did when I was 18.

If I can’t get any good community out of a church, I might as well go to the church that claims to have the Real Presence…

The Catholic Church may have to get smaller and stronger in terms of each individual’s personal commitment to Jesus and to the Church before it gets bigger again.

Agreed, and Benedict has said this.

TimothyH:

I take issue with the idea that “so many Catholics” are leaving the Church. I don’t see it from where I sit.

My parish had 2400 people on our campus for the the 4:00 PM Christmas Eve Mass. Over 160 were confirmed this year. In 2009 more than 17 million people entered the Catholic Church. That’s more than than entire Southern Baptist Convention.

I disagree with the entire premise of this thread.

Everyone goes to church on Christmas and Easter. We call them Creasters.

Yes, although globally we can theoretically say the Catholic Church is still growing, it is in dire straits in some parts of the world.

It is theoretically growing in the USA, but only due to Hispanic immigration. And Protestants like the former me can attest to how many Hispanics leave Catholicism for Protestant churches.

It is declining in Latin America as Protestantism grows, particularly Pentecostalism.

It is declining in other former strongholds like Poland, Italy, and the Philippines. Younger Polish people want their country to follow the advanced secular economies of the UK, Germany, and France.

We have lost an entire generation of Irish people. The scandal has been too strong there.

So like I said years ago on CAF, what is the Catholic Church doing to revive these places? As a former Protestant I can attest to the great progress Protestant missionaries are making in these regions.

 

[Church_Militant]

For those that responded to my 13 item list, I was surprised to get answers that “Catholics have it too.” I guess Protestants and Catholics have different mental pictures of what their ideal church ministry looks like.

Wouldn’t really know since I no longer go to any n-C services except a wedding or a funeral.

If I can’t get any good community out of a church, I might as well go to the church that claims to have the Real Presence…

in this case a matter of really going where you will be fed…

Everyone goes to church on Christmas and Easter. We call them Creasters.

We don’t actually call them anything at all. If they are Catholics then it is another opportunity for grace that can lead to their deeper conversion. We’re all sinners saved by God’s mercy and grace.

Yes, although globally we can theoretically say the Catholic Church is still growing, it is in dire straits in some parts of the world.

Which is actually nothing new. We are always having problems somewhere while in others we are flourishing. We’ve made it this far…and we are a long way from going under. They couldn’t wipe us out in the first 300 years or so and we’re due for some more of that sooner or later. Better get a helmet…

It is theoretically growing in the USA, but only due to Hispanic immigration. And Protestants like the former me can attest to how many Hispanics leave Catholicism for Protestant churches.

So…my answer is…what are you doing about it? I’ve got a supply of Hispanic Catholic tracts in Spanish and correspond with a number of Hispanic Catholic inmates, supplying them with materials and resources to maintain and defend their faith. I know they are preyed upon and targeted by anti-Catholic inmates as well as “chaplains” who are fundamentalist evangelicals. The level of lies, propaganda, and misinformation they get hit with is shameful. Fortunately…they are not stupid and are using their materials to counter all that. Most say that when they get out they intend to continue to work in the church with their knowledge.

The parish just down the highway from me has a Spanish Mass and ministers to our ever growing Hispanic community here.

It is declining in Latin America as Protestantism grows, particularly Pentecostalism.

Yeah they love to tout that up but I’ve talked to our clergy and missionaries down there and what they don’t tell you is just how fast those communities collapse and revert back to Catholicism once they go home, their numbers fall like a stone. The fact is that they aren’t preaching the Gospel as much as they are preaching the American Gospel which is based on a lifestyle that simply doesn’t fit in their society where there is way more poverty, unemployment, and all the other things that that sinners prayer/instant salvation stuff just doesn’t begin to address.

Our parish works with a sister parish in Chimbote Peru where the people are dirt poor and living in grass huts. They get an education from us, work skills that help generate income and supplies that address tangible problems, like building beds for their kids so they are no longer bitten by rats while sleeping on the floor or getting them safety cooking systems so that they don’t get killed or burned out of their home while trying to cook on an open fire. What I see here is Catholics following St. James’ epistle and meeting the people’s real needs while still ministering the Gospel to them…and we don’t go away.

It is declining in other former strongholds like Poland, Italy, and the Philippines. Younger Polish people want their country to follow the advanced secular economies of the UK, Germany, and France.

We have lost an entire generation of Irish people. The scandal has been too strong there.

You don’t know how all that will play out. No one does… People wake up…just as I did and come home and the church will still be here for us. (Thank God)

So like I said years ago on CAF, what is the Catholic Church doing to revive these places?

Already addressed.

As a former Protestant I can attest to the great progress Protestant missionaries are making in these regions.

Already addressed the facts.

Meanwhile…I ask you again. What are you doing about all this?

 

[betsybug354]

Catholics do well with administering the sacraments and building schools and hospitals. But that’s not enough. After all, isn’t church about the people, as well as the worship or the sacraments? Aren’t the relationships between these people crucial to building a church?

As a new Catholic, I am developing wonderful relationships at my large Catholic parish. Like anywhere else, the more involved you become, the more invested you will be in your church family and the better relationships you will develop.

Can we honestly say that the Mass and sacraments is enough? Is that all that Jesus did while he was on earth?

What do you mean, “enough”? The Mass calls us to pour ourselves out for others once we depart. Thus the Catholic emphasis on service to others and self denial. And since the Church is She who was founded by our Lord, She contains everything we need for salvation and is the source of light in this dark world.

Here’s what Protestants do better to foster community:

1. **Greeters **

We have wonderful greeters at our very large Catholic parish. It is a joyful, happenin’ kind of place.

1. Small group ministries. In the same way that Jesus discipled a group of twelve, a church cannot just meet as one big group.

We have small groups at our parish. Many of them, in fact. They are called faith sharing groups. I am also an RCIA sponsor this year and am already developing deep personal relationships with others in that group. We spend a great deal of time discussing our own faith journeys. I’m also taking Catechism classes this year through the local Catholic seminary (paid for by our parish). Believe me, there is no other church I’ve ever been to that handed me such large stacks of stuff to read. I just picked up another book at Midnight Mass, in fact.

2A) **Easier for lay people to actively participate. **

That term “lead worship” sounds exclusively Protestant and has always bugged me. In the Catholic Church, it is Christ who is the central focus of worship, not the praise team standing in front of the altar (if there even is an altar). It seems that once the liturgy has been jettisoned, then the focus is transferred onto worship “leaders” which I think is a big part of the problem in evangelical circles.

BTW, I recently submitted my “time and talent stewardship booklet” at church this past fall, which contained 69 different ministry options that I could sign up for. There is no shortage of ways to get involved at my church.

1. Meal or hangout after the service. Promote this event as a community-building event, as a crucial part of building a church. Simple eh? But it makes a huge difference. I’ve been thinking of returning to the church I went to in 2008-09, because of the efforts they made to build community through this method. I still have very close friends from this church, who truly accept me for who I am. Unfortunately I had to leave, when I moved to Kansas in 2009.

Seems like a poor reason to walk away from the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ in the Eucharist. As I stated above, it’s easy to build relationships when you get involved. Our church has doughnuts and coffee after Mass at least once a month. There’s never a shortage of events, usually with lots of food involved.

1. Developed college ministries…

Church Militant answered this very well, I think.

1. Developed young adult services.

…Soft rock, contemporary, hip-hop, let’s have it all. Let’s not make the liturgy so stuffy. Tradition should not get in the way of bringing people to church, and saving them.

Our church has a youth mass on Sundays at 5 pm with drums, guitar, etc. That’s the Mass we usually attend since my 13-year-old prefers it. But we would never jettison the liturgy in favor of what might be trendy. Why is it that so many evangelicals seem to think that we will “lose the children” if we don’t change up worship? The fact is, children remember the good habits they are taught when young. Our parish is absolutely full of children who are being taught that liturgical worship is a beautiful thing. Don’t underestimate them.

1. **Pop culture. **

…Hillsong churches and music are doing wonders for Protestantism around the world. Where is the Catholic equivalent?

Ugh - you put Hillsong up as the finest evangelicalism has to offer? That church is emergent at its core and is teaching error. This is a perfect example of what I’m talking about - emotional, feel-good music replacing liturgical worship. My former LCMS church was very much into Hillsong United music. They were trendy, lots of fun to sing, and it was easy to have an emotional experience while singing them, but it was a shallow form of worship. The fullness of worship can only be experienced in the Mass.

 

[yogosans14]

Well I used to want to be Catholic once but one day a TV preacher explained the truth about salvation and how simple and awesome the Gospel is. I love The truth of the Gospel, Christ died for me even of I’m a mess up and a sinner! Of course I don’t go on and keep seeing but the Holy Spirit helps me to be more like Christ. I am forgiven, born again, and my name is written in the Lambs book of life. Sorry Catholics are my brothers and sisters in christ but they have made the gospel so sophisticated when it’s so loving and simple. We don’t need a Priest to forgive us, Jesus blood on the Cross is what gives us forgiveness,

 

[YADA]

Well I used to want to be Catholic once but one day a TV preacher explained the truth about salvation and how simple and awesome the Gospel is. I love The truth of the Gospel, Christ died for me even of I’m a mess up and a sinner! Of course I don’t go on and keep seeing but the Holy Spirit helps me to be more like Christ. I am forgiven, born again, and my name is written in the Lambs book of life. Sorry Catholics are my brothers and sisters in christ but they have made the gospel so sophisticated when it’s so loving and simple. We don’t need a Priest to forgive us, Jesus blood on the Cross is what gives us forgiveness,

Why do you suppose Jesus gave that authority - to bind and loose on earth and in heaven? Why are the believers told to correct members not one on one - but with at least two and if the way word person refuses to listen and mend their ways to “take it to the Church”?

Jesus gave us the Sacrament of Reconciliation as a gift … it is for our benefit. You should try it some time …

Also, it is not the Priest we confess to but Jesus … the Priest stands in “persona Christi” … this is so we can hear Christ’s words of forgiveness and gain council that will help us in our spiritual life - spoken out loud…

As a former Protestant - I can tell you the act of seeking forgiveness in the Protestant manner - praying directly to Jesus and entering the confessional and speaking your sins out loud and seeking forgiveness are different - how you feel is different - your acknowledgement of your actions fare more real … so too the joy of hearing the words of absolution and the grace to start anew

Plus it is a recognition that when we sin - we do not merely sin against our Lord - but harm our relationship with the Church Christ Himself established for our spiritual well being and the means by which we come to Him … [its not me and Jesus - it really is Us and Jesus - its a Community of Believers] and our relationships with our friends and family … Sin separates us - the Sacrament re-unites us … and Jesus gave the authority to bind and loose sins to the Apostles and those who fill the office after them … the Church as the Body of Christ is everlasting … it has existed for 2000 years …

 

[Church_Militant]

Well I used to want to be Catholic once but one day a TV preacher explained the truth about salvation and how simple and awesome the Gospel is.

Then I think you need to reconsider your sources and look to what the Word of God (and the Catholic Church) actually teaches and preaches. My research on this is laid out very concisely in my blog post Who REALLY Preaches “A Different Gospel”?

I love The truth of the Gospel, Christ died for me even of I’m a mess up and a sinner!

As stated, this is a very Catholic concept.

Sorry Catholics are my brothers and sisters in christ but they have made the gospel so sophisticated when it’s so loving and simple.

Sorry, but you have been misled by someone who, though well intentioned has misinterpreted the scriptures and preached to you a different Gospel. See Galatians 1:8

We don’t need a Priest to forgive us, Jesus blood on the Cross is what gives us forgiveness,

Really? Well then why exactly would Christ Himself teach us otherwise? John Martignoni answers this very well on his web site when he says.

Why do Catholics confess their sins to a priest, rather than going directly to God?

Well, the quick answer is because that’s the way God wants us to do it. In James 5:16, God, through Sacred Scripture, commands us to “confess our sins to one another.” Notice, Scripture does not say confess your sins straight to God and only to God…it says confess your sins to one another. In Matthew, chapter 9, verse 6, Jesus tells us that He was given authority on earth to forgive sins. And then Scripture proceeds to tell us, in verse 8, that this authority was given to “men”…plural.

In John 20, verses 21-23, what is the 1st thing Jesus says to the gathered disciples on the night of His resurrection? “Jesus said to them, ‘Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’” How did the Father send Jesus? Well, we just saw in Mt 9 that the Father sent Jesus with the authority on earth to forgive sins. Now, Jesus sends out His disciples as the Father has sent Him…so, what authority must Jesus be sending His disciples out with? The authority on earth to forgive sins. And, just in case they didn’t get it, verses 22-23 say this, “And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.’”

Why would Jesus give the Apostles the power to forgive or to retain sins if He wasn’t expecting folks to confess their sins to them? And how could they forgive or retain sins if no one was confessing their sins to them?

The Bible tells us to confess our sins to one another. It also tells us that God gave men the authority on Earth to forgive sins. Jesus sends out His disciples with the authority on earth to forgive sins. When Catholics confess our sins to a priest, we are simply following the plan laid down by Jesus Christ. He forgives sins through the priest…it is God’s power, but He exercises that power through the ministry of the priest.

 

[yogosans14]

You can scream false gospel at me all you want but the truth of the Gospel is in the Bible. Another gospel would teach that most likely when you die you will go to Purgatory! The Bible says that God would remember our sins NO more. When we are born again in the eyes of God there is not a stain of sin on my soul. I dont need to recite a thousand Rosaries to a idol and I dont need to hope and pray just maybe i can get to Heaven withoit burning in Purgatory! What a shame people beleive this! I find the Purgatory dogma disgusting and heretical.

 

[a_priori]

Some defections may be attributable to neophilia.

 

[Randy_Carson]

You can scream false gospel at me all you want but the truth of the Gospel is in the Bible.

Amen. Catholics agree with you 100%.

Another gospel would teach that most likely when you die you will go to Purgatory!

And what if the basis for believing in Purgatory is in the Bible, but you simply have not been shown exactly how to see it?

The Bible says that God would remember our sins NO more.

Amen. Catholics agree.

When we are born again in the eyes of God there is not a stain of sin on my soul.

Amen. Catholics agree. But it’s a pity that you have to go and muddy it up with all those sins you commit later in life.

I dont need to recite a thousand Rosaries to a idol and I dont need to hope and pray just maybe i can get to Heaven withoit burning in Purgatory!

Amen. Catholics agree.

What a shame people beleive this! I find the Purgatory dogma disgusting and heretical.

Whoops. What’s REALLY a shame is that you are ignorant of what the Bible teaches.

And if you continue speaking disrespectfully, you will be banned before I can teach you from the Word.

 

[Thorolfr]

Then I think you need to reconsider your sources and look to what the Word of God (and the Catholic Church) actually teaches and preaches. My research on this is laid out very concisely in my blog post Who REALLY Preaches “A Different Gospel”? As stated, this is a very Catholic concept.
Sorry, but you have been misled by someone who, though well intentioned has misinterpreted the scriptures and preached to you a different Gospel. See Galatians 1:8
Really? Well then why exactly would Christ Himself teach us otherwise? John Martignoni answers this very well on his web site when he says.

There is no one place in scripture that says how sins are to be forgiven. The explanation given by John Martignoni is sewn together from numerous bits of scripture, often taken out of context, which by themselves do not say that a special kind of person (i.e. a priest) is required. For example, James 5:16 says,

16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective.

Using that verse from James means that a Christian can confess to any other righteous Christian. It doesn’t say that it must be a particular kind of Christian with special powers to forgive sins. Nor does it say that this is the only way for sins to be forgiven. It just says that this is one “powerful and effective” way.

 

[Church_Militant]

There is no one place in scripture that says how sins are to be forgiven. The explanation given by John Martignoni is sewn together from numerous bits of scripture, often taken out of context, which by themselves do not say that a special kind of person (i.e. a priest) is required. For example, James 5:16 says,

16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective.

Using that verse from James means that a Christian can confess to any other righteous Christian. It doesn’t say that it must be a particular kind of Christian with special powers to forgive sins. Nor does it say that this is the only way for sins to be forgiven. It just says that this is one “powerful and effective” way.

That’s not what the context of the New Testament teaches. Cherry picking verses and passages to support your own interpretation does not lend itself to right belief.

You seem to have missed John 20:21-23 which plainly tells us.*** “21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.”***

I have a couple of Bible study articles on this too.
Catholic Confession
Scriptures About Penance

 

[Thorolfr]

That’s not what the context of the New Testament teaches. Cherry picking verses and passages to support your own interpretation does not lend itself to right belief.

You seem to have missed John 20:21-23 which plainly tells us.*** “21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.”***

I have a couple of Bible study articles on this too.
Catholic Confession
Scriptures About Penance

But John 20:21-23 does not say that this is the only way for sins to be forgiven. It just says that those whose sins are forgiven by Jesus’ disciples will be forgiven. It doesn’t say that the sins of Christians later on must be forgiven by a priest.

 

[awsiukiewicz]

They have come to know the Lord, been filled with the Spirit, and they are excited about it.

what’s that supposed to mean Randy…are you being sarcastic ? are you serious…the have come to know the Lord…explain yrself…I have read some of yr quotes…Tiber Swim Team…most of the people that I have encountered that ‘leave’ the Catholic Church…leave for the big screen…the praise and worship…the doughnuts…the fellowship…etc…they are bored with what they think is boring…I believe one should go where one feels they are fed…albeit to a nondenominational church…sorry to say…with V-2…that’s right I said it…where, correct me if I’m wrong…once again…someone please…paraphrasing ofcourse…but all churchs should be appreciated for what they have to offfer…we all serve one God…and it goes on and on…so…why shouldn’t one go elsewhere if they have just as much a right at salvation…for me…The Eucharist…and the Sacrifice of Holy Mass…that’s right I said it …Sacrifice…I don’t go for the communal aspect…or the hand holding…or sappy feel good lets applaud homilies…I go for the Eucharist…AFTER I go to Confession…where some Priests (poorly formed- no doubt) inform me that most of what I am confessing is NOT a sin…and well.it’s ok if I wish to pray the Act of Contrition or not…;o.k. someone let me have it…Pax

 

[PeopleB4Things]

This is so puzzling to me. I have seen many, many Catholics who never were seen at Mass leave for other denominations, where they seem so enthusiastic. How to explain this?

Part of the problem is us. Some Catholic churches are receptive to Catholics of all shapes and sizes, economic levels, family situations, etc. Others, while officially open to all, are very closed, making outsiders or new people feel very uncomfortable. I go to a church where there are two cliques. The dominant clique is made of families who’ve lived in our town for generations. The other clique is made up of people who have moved into our town over the past couple of decades. At first I thought the division was between our Catholic school families versus our public school families, but I soon learned that the families new to our school were being excluded from the home grown group. Needless to say, both groups are formidable in size and everyone can find a place to exist if they put in the work. But as an outsider coming into our church, the politics and the social structure are daunting. We’ve had several families leave our parish to attend other parishes in other towns and we’ve had families leave our parish to attend other religious organizations more accepting of them. Happy Christians are engaged Christians.

If we want to look at why people are leaving our churches, we need only to look at ourselves. And a good homilist wouldn’t hurt.

 

[bisco1]

many of Jesus’ disciples left Him because His teachings were too ‘hard’. the same is true today. find a church with easy salvation, so much more fun. you can see them right here. ‘i want grace, i want mercy, i want love’. ‘don’t tell me about hell, purgatory, sin’.

 

[Randy_Carson]

This is so puzzling to me. I have seen many, many Catholics who never were seen at Mass leave for other denominations, where they seem so enthusiastic. How to explain this?

They have come to know the Lord, been filled with the Spirit, and they are excited about it.

what’s that supposed to mean Randy…are you being sarcastic ? are you serious…the have come to know the Lord…explain yrself…

Adelphine asked for an explanation of why people who never went to mass leave for other denominations.

I replied that the reason they seem so enthusiastic is that “they have come to know the Lord, been filled with the Spirit, and they are excited about it.”

 

[thetazlord]

This is so puzzling to me. I have seen many, many Catholics who never were seen at Mass leave for other denominations, where they seem so enthusiastic. How to explain this?

Honestly, I was never taught Scripture in my parochial school or parish. Now, at my church, we spend 40+ minutes opening the Word of God, & it’s expositorily explained by our pastor. I leave spiritually “full” by the end of the service, as well as convicted, which is a good thing.