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MarkInOregon
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Well the Churches they often leave for have espresso bars so they can sip their latte while listening to a good praise band and an good sermon. There is an entertainment quality to these services–they are in some sense productions. The Church will talk about the missionaries they sponsor and what they are accomplishing, they will talk about the good they are doing in the community. They will talk about how to apply the scripture to their everyday lives. The people feel involved and see it as relevant to their everyday lives–just by going–not to mentioned “entertained.” They go --at least initially–because they get “something”.
While the Mass can never be this – and why would anyone who understands what Mass is and what happens there want it to be–we should take note. There may be some things we could learn. Many parishes have St. Vincent DePaul food closets–I know our parish does but most do a crummy job communicating what they do, what they need and even that they exist (I only knew ours existed because they had food collection barrels in the vestibule). I was at a meeting once that took place at another local church and I noticed that they too had a food closet but they had a list that their members could take with them telling what the food closet needed–this was something our food closet wasn’t doing. Why don’t our food closets let us know what they need? What they are running short on–if they have 40,000 cans of green beans–we need to know not to bring those for a while, but to bring x or y or z. We should be telling how many people in the community we served or helped each week. We should ask for volunteers. Often these things go on with very few helpers (who get burned out keeping them going) and with the vast majority of parishioners knowing nothing about it. They need to know about it, be invited to help in order to feel the Church is relevant in there lives. Helping others is a part of the gospel message–it can get them involved in “Church” outside of Mass. Why can’t we have espresso after mass instead of Folgers coffee? Why always the same donuts? Folgers and donuts–it feels tired and unappealing. These are things we could change without affecting the Mass. There is a church two doors down from my house–its a small church but they are there half the day on Sunday. After their service it appears they have a potluck meal–every Sunday and I believe after that education programs–not everyone stays for everything every Sunday but it goes on every Sunday.
We do many good things that I bet a lot of the parishioners who leave never knew we were doing. Did we ever invite them to do any small step–outside of Mass that might have started them down the road to realizing what a great thing Mass was. Are we ourselves welcoming and inviting to others around us at Mass–or are we there with the this is “Jesus and me” time–rather than communal worship? Are we failing to see Jesus in those parishioners we judge as “less holy”? Are we joyful Christians or have we forgotten the resurrection? Have we forgotten the good news of the Gospel? Has that gospel transformed us into joyful Christians who try to serve others in all we do or are we dour-- living at the foot of the cross while the risen Christ lives and walks among us?
For many Mass seems like an opera --something from ages past–that isn’t relevant today. It’s nice occasionally–like the Nutcracker is nice at Christmas–just don’t expect me to go to the ballet every week. Many expect to get something from the Mass not to give worship to God–we need to help them see that in giving worship and receiving the Eucharist they are indeed getting something but that is different mindset and we --WE–need to help others see this but it has to be through our loving actions–by our transformed lives–and far too many of us --myself first and foremost–have not and do not live lives transformed by the Gospel message. So, for me, the bottom line is many leave because I have not lived as I should have.
The peace of Christ,
Mark
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MarkInOregon
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I think it is partially in the way it is preached and lived. I think many people both young and old are looking to make a difference–to give back–to give meaning to their lives --looking for the truth. There is a book and study series that has gone through many protestant churches called “Not a Fan” that is, I think, about this very thing. It seems to have been very popular and drawn many to live out there faith in a committed and transforming way.
When you read about the early Christians–they indeed took up their cross and served–they lived lives transformed by the Gospel–they were joyful in their sufferings, they were joyful in their servitude, they were joyful as they were led to their deaths. This joyful and peaceful transformation of their lives is what attracted others. Can we say the same? Are we offering joy and peace and praise to God no matter what life brings? Does our service, our dying to self – look like we are dying or does it look like we have found new life? Does it look like we are dutifully discharging some duty we think we have or is it evident that we have found some hidden joy–something truly fulfilling?
I kind of think it is not the message but rather our execution of the message that is the problem. I think it is the way I have lived the message and not the message.
Amen.
The peace of Christ,
Mark
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MarkInOregon
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I can’t believe I am writing this since I never seem to agree with CaliLobo’s posts. But come on–why so defensive? Just because your parish has greeters doesn’t mean all or even most parishes do. In many (that’s many not all) of the areas she addresses we could do better and we should do better – are we too afraid to admit that? I know you all don’t think that all the parishes are doing things perfectly–these threads are filled with complaining Catholics. “We have greeters”–is not a complete answer to the suggestion that perhaps are parishes could be more welcoming. Like we can put a check in the Welcoming box on some checklist. Our parish has greeters–and yet we had a new family come to Mass and not feel welcomed and who had a bad experience–called let our priest know and went somewhere else. I don’t know what happened but whatever the specifics–it just shouldn’t happen. We need to do better. I’m willing to admit that. What good are those greeters if all the rest of us are unwelcoming? As hard as it is to say I think CaliLobo raised a few good points–and we’d probably all be better off considering them rather than getting hurt and offering our defenses. Do you all really think we have nothing to learn? That there is nothing we could possibly learn from any protestant Church? Are you unwilling to even look at how they might feed the homeless? Are you unwilling to even consider having a potluck after Mass occasionally because hey we have donuts and coffee? If having espresso along with coffee would get a few more people over to the parish center–is such a bad thing to consider it?
The peace of Christ,
Mark
The peace of Christ,
Mark
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Randy_Carson
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And broke his vow of chastity when he married a former nun who also broke her vows as a result.
So, they exchanged vows and committed their lives to one another after breaking the vows of commitment they had made for life to God.
And the Reformation honors them every year on October 31.
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GaryTaylor
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Catholics are leaving because of the Catholics in the Church and because the Church isn’t operating as expected or as welcoming as hoped for? It seems there are many reasons, and we all know we should strive to do our best daily.
He is the Church who has the words of eternal life. I have no desire to take Jesus or the bible out of His Church. I don’t even want to take one too many pamphlets out of His Church.
So we can all do better and be more charitable. Amen
Oddly I came to the same conclusion despite my own confusion. I want to take the Church with me daily, and all day if possible. I simply don’t want to visit as that suggests that I live elsewhere other than with the mind of the Church.
He is the Church who has the words of eternal life. I have no desire to take Jesus or the bible out of His Church. I don’t even want to take one too many pamphlets out of His Church.
So we can all do better and be more charitable. Amen
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a_priori
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Some Churches all across Christendom are willing to modify their “message” in order to gain market share. Bad move.
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hadulzo
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We have weak Catholics leaving and smart Protestants who figured out their faith was missing something joining us. Some choose the narrow gate, some choose a band and expresso.
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Thorolfr
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That’s Reformation Sunday, and all us Lutherans wear red and sing Luther’s “A Mighty Fortress is Our God.” At my church, we also have beer and brats after the service
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Abu
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Exactly – there is growth, so for the Lutherans, one wonders when Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture will be appreciated as the Catholic Church appreciates them, and at the lack of the Magisterium from Christ.
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Sy_Noe
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This ^. Another poster earlier said Catholics who leave never took their faith seriously. That’s not necessarily true. They may know Catholic teachings but simply came to not believe in enough of them, coming to realize the Catholic faith isn’t their faith.
Not only on contraception and SS marriage though. But it can also include other teachings. For example posters were discussing on this thread how sins are forgiven. And obligatory confession to a priest for sins can even be an example that those who leave come to not believe in. Some may come to believe confession to a priest is one way but not the only. As was pointed out there is James 5:16 as well. And there’s even the Lord’s Prayer, where God is directly asked to forgive us. Or there can be a host of any number of teachings they don’t believe in.
Basically either they come to believe the faith is not their faith or they’ve lost faith in Catholic teaching authority. Some return. Others don’t. People walk by faith not by sight. It’s really not any more complicated than that as to why people leave.
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Abu
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Such occurrences cannot be justified as we know what the Christ taught, founding His Church on Peter:
All four promises to Peter alone:
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19) [Later to the Twelve].
Sole authority:
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).
How could these commands be fulfilled if Peter or his successors could TEACH error? What is involved is ignorance and/or selfism.
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AmbroseSJ
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Unfortunately, ignorance and/or selfism is not easily gotten over. There is a need for humble honesty to overcome either or both. Even then, one may be humble and honest, and still not see the Truth. I always remember how long it took someone as humble and honest as John Henry Newman to come to the Catholic Faith.
Our Faith journey can be like that of the 3 wise men. We are Gentiles, traveling from afar, guided by a star. But even they had to stop and ask the experts on Scripture where to find their journey’s end.
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Abu
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Real Catholics are all in favour of reform of bad habits – no change to the point of denial in Christ’s teaching can be justified.
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thetazlord
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That’s really hard to say. I was a devout Catholic & altar boy of my parish in elementary school. By the time I completed my college prep Catholic high school, I pretty much went to church on Christmas & Easter (if that) & “sort-of” observed Lent. I started getting back to my church in my late 20’s to early 30’s, but still, the Mass left me empty inside. I have always known that the readings were from the Old & New Testaments, followed by a reading from the Gospel. But the literally 5-10 explanation by out pastor on Sunday really left me feeling spiritually “empty” inside, just as it did when I was younger. When I started attending Bible study years later, as well as attending a Protestant church that spent 40 minutes of the service explaining Scripture - in addition to the reading from Scripture, & in addition to the songs & hymns sung. As a result, I began to really understand Scripture, & even started attending Sunday School before the actual service, which lasted an hour.
So, listening to Scripture & hearing hymns based on Scripture isn’t enough to leave one’s church “edified,” whether it’s Catholic, EO, or Protestant. That’s why the early Church in Scripture when they gathered together committed to reading the Word of God & being edified by it. Sorry, just something I didn’t receive from the church of my youth - either as youth, nor as a young adult.
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thetazlord
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No offense, but isn’t this statement a bit presumptous & a somewhat of circular reasoning? Wouldn’t a better assessment be that the particular teaching should be assessed to whether or not it matches or conflicts with the Word of God, based on proper Biblical hermeneutics, which should be based on a proper translation of the text from the original languages of Hebrew, Aramaic, & Greek? If so, the church I attend employs sound Biblical hermeneutics.unfortunately, when you are taught scripture in a protestant church, you’re getting the interpretation of that particular denomination, or even pastor, because there is no central authority from Christ. it can possibly lead to wrong thinking and beliefs.
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thetazlord
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Then why when I was Catholic I left Mass spiritually empty, yet when I left my Protestant church I didn’t? And, BTW, worship of Christ is involved during Bible study. How can you worship Someone you don’t understand or truly know? Also, there’s a difference between Bible study & a sermon. Since I’ve been to churches that do both, that’s why I know the difference. And the Homily in my old Catholic church really did neither. I don’t call a 5-10 minute Homily adequate enough to edify, at least not after my experience from Protestant churches I’ve attended since then.You sound like a Catholic who was praising a local protestant church to me as we were leaving Mass one Sunday - They were extolling how much scripture their sermon contained and who asked me ***“Why don’t we ever hear about the bible at Mass?” … ***
I replied that “The Mass was full of the scriptures from the opening prayer to the final blessing and what did they think the First Reading, Psalm, Second Reading and Gospel were - they’re Scriptures” …
They replied - ***“That’s not the Bible - that’s the Missal” ***…
I am flabbergastedand embarrassed for them
Truth is … as a non Catholic - I heard many sermons - some focused on Scriptures - mostly those ‘favorite’ passages of the pastor - especially at the “Bible” churches … they are not required to address the entire bible - the local pastor gets to select what passages they want to preach on … you only hear a passage quoted in the sermon - most do not have scripture readings proclaimed [though some of the liturgical mainline churches do]. The pastors of the mainline liturgical churches can follow the Cycle of Readings - but they are able to change them if they desire and focus instead on another topic …
Also - there is a difference in a “Sermon” and a “Homily” in my experience with Sermons in my non-Catholic churches and the Homily since I became a Catholic. I would explain the differences this way.
A sermon uses scriptural passages to explain and or support an idea – for example if you want to focus on the “end of times” – you would talk about the state of the world today and how we are spiraling towards the advent of the Anti-Christ and then select the passages to support that idea. Or if a pastor wants to focus on a particular sin [adultery or drunkenness] he preaches on how sinful that is – and quotes passages in support … it uses Scriptures a the witness of the message.
The homily is a commentary on some part of Scripture Readings of the day. The purpose is to explain the literal meaning and develop the spiritual meaning in order to provide a context and or a reflection on the scripture reading that is designed to make the passages relevant/pertinent to our life today. Basically, the homily uses the message or meaning of the passage from the time it was written and attempts to contextualize it for the modern hearer.
Also as other posters have noted - non Catholic Services are more related to Bible Study in focus - not worship … The Mass is focused on worship of Christ.
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AmbroseSJ
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Your candid answers are very helpful. But there are some simple explanations (as you yourself admit) as to why you went down the path you did.
First, you drifted away from Catholicism in your HS/College years. That is unfortunately a statistical reality for a great many Catholics.
Second, you had a reawakening to Religion in your late twenties. That is also very typical, as one begins to take responsibility for a family and other signs of maturity.
Third, the Protestant church you found helped you to understand a lot about Christianity that you just never saw before. Again, very normal.
But now the troubling part.
Because you are grateful and feeling as though SOMEONE has finally taken the time to help you understand your Faith in Jesus Christ and even helped you to grow in that Faith, you are naturally inclined to be more loyal to that church, while at the same time you can’t help wondering why your Catholic Faith was so empty and unhelpful to you. Your new church of course, has ready answers for you on this score.
This is a story that is repeated millions upon millions of times across the West. It is the very reason for this thread.
But there is another side to this coin. The side where DEVOUT Protestants who have studied history, theology and the Bible, are nagged by certain inconsistencies, and even sometimes errors in their church (and other Protestant churches.) They are the ones who upon much more study and reflection turn to Catholicism, and THEN become the most convincing apologists for the Truth of Catholicism.
Catholicism takes work. A lot of the work is “home work.” IOW, you won’t be spoon fed doctrine, the Bible and other matters at Mass. Catholics need to understand their Faith deeply. SOMETIMES, it actually helps to worship as a Protestant for a while to get your Catholic Faith in perspective.
But the danger is that while a Protestant, you will become content and feel entitled to be spoon-fed all of your religion. (a consumerist view of religion, if you will.) Instead, keep the progress moving! Continue to study religion, its history, the reformation, Theology etc. Question your new found Protestant church with as much diligence as you questioned your Catholic faith.
Ask why the Sacraments were dispensed with after 1500 years. Ask why Apostolic succession matters. Ask why the Eucharist is CENTRAL to the Catholic Faith. But don’t JUST ask your new found Protestant friends. Ask knowledgeable Catholics, and read up.
You have Apostatized from Catholicism. It is not something you should do on a whim, or because you “feel” better where you are now. The Truth isn’t always pleasant, nor is Christianity meant to be comfortable.
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Jeanne_S
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