So many Catholics leaving the church

[Randy_Carson]

Honestly, I was never taught Scripture in my parochial school or parish. Now, at my church, we spend 40+ minutes opening the Word of God, & it’s expositorily explained by our pastor. I leave spiritually “full” by the end of the service, as well as convicted, which is a good thing.

Sounds like you’ve found a great bible study. I think Catholics would benefit from attending Sunday School like the Protestants do, but mass is not a Bible Study. It is the re-presentation of the one sacrifice of Calvary, and it is about WORSHIP - not listening to a speaker teaching.

Did you ever go to mass? Then you were being taught “scripture” even if you never opened the Bible, because the mass is chock full of readings and passages of scripture are woven into the prayers, etc.

And, of course, you WERE being fed the Word, Jesus, who is present in the Eucharist. Not something you can get in the symbolic ritual of a Protestant assembly.

What year did you leave the Church and how old were you at the time?

 

[bisco1]

unfortunately, when you are taught scripture in a protestant church, you’re getting the interpretation of that particular denomination, or even pastor, because there is no central authority from Christ. it can possibly lead to wrong thinking and beliefs.

 

[Kay_Cee]

As a former Protestant I am well-versed in this issue. I have posted on the topic of why people are much more drawn to Protestant churches. I will post again here. I await your thoughtful replies.

Catholics do well with administering the sacraments and building schools and hospitals. But that’s not enough. After all, isn’t church about the people, as well as the worship or the sacraments? Aren’t the relationships between these people crucial to building a church?

Can we honestly say that the Mass and sacraments is enough? Is that all that Jesus did while he was on earth?

Here’s what Protestants do better to foster community:

1. **Greeters **at the front door that talk to you. Yeah it’s annoying. But it at least shows they care. Don’t Catholics understand that RANDOM people enter the doors of a church, hoping to hear the voice of God? I know I’ve walked into a parish myself for this same reason. But no one even bothered to talk to me. For one moment, you can provide joy to a person who is in pain.
2. Small group ministries. In the same way that Jesus discipled a group of twelve, a church cannot just meet as one big group. Churches should also meet as smaller groups to create discipleship relationships, and to form community. The Bible, and life in general, is discussed. Friendships are formed, many deep. Study materials are used. Meals are eaten. Even parties and hangouts are organized. Most importantly, this provides the catechesis for ADULTS that Catholic churches lack. Because catechesis should not stop when you graduate Catholic high school. Do Catholics actually talk about how their spiritual journey is going with each other?

2A) **Easier for lay people to actively participate. **You want to lead one of these small groups? It is possible. You want to lead worship and play an instrument? It is possible. You want to be a greeter and pass out flyers? Work the sound system? Video editing? Website? Coffee? It is all possible.

1. Meal or hangout after the service. Promote this event as a community-building event, as a crucial part of building a church. Simple eh? But it makes a huge difference. I’ve been thinking of returning to the church I went to in 2008-09, because of the efforts they made to build community through this method. I still have very close friends from this church, who truly accept me for who I am. Unfortunately I had to leave, when I moved to Kansas in 2009.
2. **Developed college ministries. Because college is an onslaught of secular liberalism. **Protestants fight back. Do Catholics? No, I don’t mean just pro-life advocacy. How about building college ministries, with pastors or priests that are relatively young and can relate to this uneasy age? Who can talk about dating, friendship, studying, career, and growth? The uneasiness of emerging adulthood? Let’s aggressively market our ministry in college campuses. Let’s pass out flyers, and invite people to join. Let’s set up a table in the main walkway of campus. Let’s assertively invite college-age people to church. Let’s be an active beacon of counterargument against secular liberalism.

4A) Why stop at college campuses? Why not go to malls and stores, and pass out Bibles? Why not just flat out approach strangers, and ask them if we can talk to them about God? Isn’t saving people the most important job of all, the Great Commission?? For Protestants, evangelism is paramount. But I don’t see Catholics even passing out the Bible or the Catechism, anywhere!

1. Developed young adult services. (Though the trend is back toward age integration.) I still believe this has its usefulness, because once students graduate college, then what? Emerging adulthood is another uneasy time. And what better way to bring young people together? Maybe we can promote Christian marriages this way. I know, let’s modify the music. Soft rock, contemporary, hip-hop, let’s have it all. Let’s not make the liturgy so stuffy. Tradition should not get in the way of bringing people to church, and saving them.
2. **Pop culture. **Yeah, it’s lame. But look at how many Protestants have been affected by the greatest Protestant musicians like Steven Curtis Chapman. His concerts are ministries in themselves, and people join in and sing along, worshiping along with him. How many have been converted because of his inspiring music? Today, we have Hillsong. Hillsong churches and music are doing wonders for Protestantism around the world. Where is the Catholic equivalent?

My local parish has everything you mentioned above except 4A. But, then again, I’ve never once seen a Protestant Church do what you describe either. Ever.

 

[bisco1]

and these are all reasons why protestant churches keep dividing, separating and changing, because they let all these lay people teach what they know not. it’s even a problem in the catholic church imccd and rcia. you can see them right here, trying mistakenly to teach others.
but at least we have the ccc and church documents to refer to.

 

[Thorolfr]

unfortunately, when you are taught scripture in a protestant church, you’re getting the interpretation of that particular denomination, or even pastor, because there is no central authority from Christ. it can possibly lead to wrong thinking and beliefs.

And when you’re in a Catholic church, you’re getting the interpretation of the Catholic denomination.

 

[Church_Militant]

And when you’re in a Catholic church, you’re getting the interpretation of the Catholic denomination.

One that has been in place since the day of Pentecost 2,000 years ago and founded by Christ Himself. The same universal church that the apostles handed on to the early church.

We don’t splinter into 10,000 separate communities each claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit but never even agreeing with each other, (See 1st Corinthians 14:33) nor ordaining open and actively immoral persons to not only the priesthood, but the bishopric as well…nor did we change moral standing in the 1930s to allow the murder of the unborn “as a matter of conscience” when prior to that no Christian church had allowed it.

I’ve already shown that your position is taken out of context of the New Testament. If you disagree that’s on you of course, but it’s not like everyone else can’t see the context.

 

[Thorolfr]

One that has been in place since the day of Pentecost 2,000 years ago and founded by Christ Himself. The same universal church that the apostles handed on to the early church.

We don’t splinter into 10,000 separate communities each claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit but never even agreeing with each other, (See 1st Corinthians 14:33) nor ordaining open and actively immoral persons to not only the priesthood, but the bishopric as well…nor did we change moral standing in the 1930s to allow the murder of the unborn “as a matter of conscience” when prior to that no Christian church had allowed it.

I’ve already shown that your position is taken out of context of the New Testament. If you disagree that’s on you of course, but it’s not like everyone else can’t see the context.

I’ve never said that pastors or priests can’t forgive sins. Every Sunday, the pastor of my Lutheran church (ELCA) raises his hand in front of the altar and says, “As a called and ordained minister of the church of Christ, and by his authority, I therefore declare to you the entire forgiveness of all of your sins in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, Amen.”

But I don’t think that scripture says that the only way for Christians to be forgiven their sins is by a priest. Certainly, I’ve never been taught that that is the case, either as a Lutheran or as a Baptist when I was growing up. Obviously the Catholic Church has a different understanding of scripture and I respect that.

 

[bisco1]

that’s why we don’t go solely by scripture, Christ never said to. the only ones who do are those who came along 1500 years after the fact and had nothing else to go by, because they reject His church. funny though, they’re willing to use the scriptures that His church compiled, (mostly)

 

[TimothyH]

And when you’re in a Catholic church, you’re getting the interpretation of the Catholic denomination.

Catholicism is not a denomination.

To de-nominate means to give up your name. Catholicism is the faith from which all others have de-nominated themselves. The word Catholic means universal.

All other Christians faiths have de-nominated themselves from the universal Church established by Christ.

-Tim-

 

[Thorolfr]

Catholicism is not a denomination.

To de-nominate means to give up your name. Catholicism is the faith from which all others have de-nominated themselves. The word Catholic means universal.

All other Christians faiths have de-nominated themselves from the universal Church established by Christ.

-Tim-

I thought that all Christians belong to the “universal church established by Christ” (that’s what Lutherans believe). As I said above, each Sunday my Lutheran pastor raises his hand in front of the altar and says that he forgives all of our sins as “a called and ordained minister of the church of Christ.”

We Lutherans also read the Apostles’ Creed which says: “I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints…”. But for us, the word “catholic” is lower case.

 

[bisco1]

pretty sweet, sounds like you can do pretty much whatever you want!

 

[TimothyH]

I thought that all Christians belong to the “universal church established by Christ” (that’s what Lutherans believe). As I said above, each Sunday my Lutheran pastor raises his hand in front of the altar and says that he forgives all of our sins as “a called and ordained minister of the church of Christ.”

The Lutheran denomination was started by a Catholic Augustinian monk named Martin Luther. He was a consecrated member of a Catholic religious order under solemn vows.

He broke the solemn vows he had made to God, de-nominated himself from the Catholic faith and started his own Church outside of the authority of the Church which he vowed to God that he would obey.

-Tim-

 

[cena]

Catholicism is not a denomination.

To de-nominate means to give up your name. Catholicism is the faith from which all others have de-nominated themselves. The word Catholic means universal.

All other Christians faiths have de-nominated themselves from the universal Church established by Christ.

-Tim-

Well said:thumbsup: to reiterate what you said all other Christians have de nominated themselves from the one, true Church Christ established

 

[YADA]

Honestly, I was never taught Scripture in my parochial school or parish. Now, at my church, we spend 40+ minutes opening the Word of God, & it’s expositorily explained by our pastor. I leave spiritually “full” by the end of the service, as well as convicted, which is a good thing.

You sound like a Catholic who was praising a local protestant church to me as we were leaving Mass one Sunday - They were extolling how much scripture their sermon contained and who asked me ***“Why don’t we ever hear about the bible at Mass?” … ***

I replied that “The Mass was full of the scriptures from the opening prayer to the final blessing and what did they think the First Reading, Psalm, Second Reading and Gospel were - they’re Scriptures” …

They replied - ***“That’s not the Bible - that’s the Missal” ***…

I am flabbergasted and embarrassed for them

Truth is … as a non Catholic - I heard many sermons - some focused on Scriptures - mostly those ‘favorite’ passages of the pastor - especially at the “Bible” churches … they are not required to address the entire bible - the local pastor gets to select what passages they want to preach on … you only hear a passage quoted in the sermon - most do not have scripture readings proclaimed [though some of the liturgical mainline churches do]. The pastors of the mainline liturgical churches can follow the Cycle of Readings - but they are able to change them if they desire and focus instead on another topic …

Also - there is a difference in a “Sermon” and a “Homily” in my experience with Sermons in my non-Catholic churches and the Homily since I became a Catholic. I would explain the differences this way.

A sermon uses scriptural passages to explain and or support an idea – for example if you want to focus on the “end of times” – you would talk about the state of the world today and how we are spiraling towards the advent of the Anti-Christ and then select the passages to support that idea. Or if a pastor wants to focus on a particular sin [adultery or drunkenness] he preaches on how sinful that is – and quotes passages in support … it uses Scriptures a the witness of the message.

The homily is a commentary on some part of Scripture Readings of the day. The purpose is to explain the literal meaning and develop the spiritual meaning in order to provide a context and or a reflection on the scripture reading that is designed to make the passages relevant/pertinent to our life today. Basically, the homily uses the message or meaning of the passage from the time it was written and attempts to contextualize it for the modern hearer.

Also as other posters have noted - non Catholic Services are more related to Bible Study in focus - not worship … The Mass is focused on worship of Christ.

 

[Thorolfr]

I replied that “The Mass was full of the scriptures from the opening prayer to the final blessing and what did they think the First Reading, Psalm, Second Reading and Gospel were - they’re Scriptures” …

They replied - ***“That’s not the Bible - that’s the Missal” ***…

I am flabbergasted and embarrassed for them

Truth is … as a non Catholic - I heard many sermons - some focused on Scriptures - mostly those ‘favorite’ passages of the pastor - especially at the “Bible” churches … they are not required to address the entire bible - the local pastor gets to select what passages they want to preach on … you only hear a passage quoted in the sermon - most do not have scripture readings proclaimed [though some of the liturgical mainline churches do]. The pastors of the mainline liturgical churches can follow the Cycle of Readings - but they are able to change them if they desire and focus instead on another topic …

Also - there is a difference in a “Sermon” and a “Homily” in my experience with Sermons in my non-Catholic churches and the Homily since I became a Catholic. I would explain the differences this way.

A sermon uses scriptural passages to explain and or support an idea – for example if you want to focus on the “end of times” – you would talk about the state of the world today and how we are spiraling towards the advent of the Anti-Christ and then select the passages to support that idea. Or if a pastor wants to focus on a particular sin [adultery or drunkenness] he preaches on how sinful that is – and quotes passages in support … it uses Scriptures a the witness of the message.

The homily is a commentary on some part of Scripture Readings of the day. The purpose is to explain the literal meaning and develop the spiritual meaning in order to provide a context and or a reflection on the scripture reading that is designed to make the passages relevant/pertinent to our life today. Basically, the homily uses the message or meaning of the passage from the time it was written and attempts to contextualize it for the modern hearer.

Also as other posters have noted - non Catholic Services are more related to Bible Study in focus - not worship … The Mass is focused on worship of Christ.

I was raised as a Baptist, and, as you say, the sermons mostly focused on whatever the pastor wanted to preach on. We only heard the parts of scripture that he wanted to talk about.

But the Lutheran church (ELCA) of which I am now a member uses the Revised Common Lectionary which usually has something from the Old Testament, something from Psalms, something from one of the New Testament epistles and something from one of the gospels. As Wikipedia says about the Revised Common Lectionary:

This lectionary was derived from various Protestant lectionaries in current use, which in turn were based on the 1969 Ordo Lectionum Missae, a three-year lectionary produced by the Roman Catholic Church following the reforms of the Second Vatican Council

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revised_Common_Lectionary

I’ve noticed that our readings in my Lutheran church on Sunday are usually the same as those in the Catholic Church and also follow a three year pattern.

My Lutheran pastor usually preaches about the gospel reading although occasionally he might preach instead about one of the other readings for that day from the Old Testament or the epistles (but not often). As a result, I know that the pastor sometimes gets difficult passages that he might not always want to preach on. Although what my Lutheran pastor preaches every Sunday is called a “sermon”, it sound closer to what you have called a “homily”. Overall, I’ve learned a lot more about what is in the Bible in my Lutheran church than what I ever did as a Baptist because the Lutherans use a three year lectionary.

 

[Church_Militant]

You sound like a Catholic who was praising a local protestant church to me as we were leaving Mass one Sunday - They were extolling how much scripture their sermon contained and who asked me ***“Why don’t we ever hear about the bible at Mass?” … ***

I replied that “The Mass was full of the scriptures from the opening prayer to the final blessing and what did they think the First Reading, Psalm, Second Reading and Gospel were - they’re Scriptures” …

They replied - ***“That’s not the Bible - that’s the Missal” ***…

I am flabbergasted and embarrassed for them :blush:The best resource I have found for this, that if it was up to me, would be required for every Catholic is Dr. Edward Sri’s A Biblical Walk Through the Mass which shows exactly what you were saying. If your parish DRE can get the video course with the books for you guys by all means get in on it.

Truth is … as a non Catholic - I heard many sermons - some focused on Scriptures - mostly those ‘favorite’ passages of the pastor - especially at the “Bible” churches … they are not required to address the entire bible - the local pastor gets to select what passages they want to preach on … you only hear a passage quoted in the sermon - most do not have scripture readings proclaimed [though some of the liturgical mainline churches do]. The pastors of the mainline liturgical churches can follow the Cycle of Readings - but they are able to change them if they desire and focus instead on another topic …

Also - there is a difference in a “Sermon” and a “Homily” in my experience with Sermons in my non-Catholic churches and the Homily since I became a Catholic. I would explain the differences this way.

A sermon uses scriptural passages to explain and or support an idea – for example if you want to focus on the “end of times” – you would talk about the state of the world today and how we are spiraling towards the advent of the Anti-Christ and then select the passages to support that idea. Or if a pastor wants to focus on a particular sin [adultery or drunkenness] he preaches on how sinful that is – and quotes passages in support … it uses Scriptures a the witness of the message.

The homily is a commentary on some part of Scripture Readings of the day. The purpose is to explain the literal meaning and develop the spiritual meaning in order to provide a context and or a reflection on the scripture reading that is designed to make the passages relevant/pertinent to our life today. Basically, the homily uses the message or meaning of the passage from the time it was written and attempts to contextualize it for the modern hearer.

Also as other posters have noted - non Catholic Services are more related to Bible Study in focus - not worship … The Mass is focused on worship of Christ.

Good assessment.

I was raised as a Baptist, and, as you say, the sermons mostly focused on whatever the pastor wanted to preach on. We only heard the parts of scripture that he wanted to talk about.

This was my experience as well.

But the Lutheran church (ELCA) of which I am now a member uses the Revised Common Lectionary which usually has something from the Old Testament, something from Psalms, something from one of the New Testament epistles and something from one of the gospels. As Wikipedia says about the Revised Common Lectionary:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revised_Common_Lectionary

I’ve noticed that our readings in my Lutheran church on Sunday are usually the same as those in the Catholic Church and also follow a three year pattern.

My Lutheran pastor usually preaches about the gospel reading although occasionally he might preach instead about one of the other readings for that day from the Old Testament or the epistles (but not often). As a result, I know that the pastor sometimes gets difficult passages that he might not always want to preach on. Although what my Lutheran pastor preaches every Sunday is called a “sermon”, it sound closer to what you have called a “homily”. Overall, I’ve learned a lot more about what is in the Bible in my Lutheran church than what I ever did as a Baptist because the Lutherans use a three year lectionary.Yep! It’s great isn’t it.

 

[YADA]

I was raised as a Baptist, and, as you say, the sermons mostly focused on whatever the pastor wanted to preach on. We only heard the parts of scripture that he wanted to talk about.

But the Lutheran church (ELCA) of which I am now a member uses the Revised Common Lectionary which usually has something from the Old Testament, something from Psalms, something from one of the New Testament epistles and something from one of the gospels. As Wikipedia says about the Revised Common Lectionary:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revised_Common_Lectionary

I’ve noticed that our readings in my Lutheran church on Sunday are usually the same as those in the Catholic Church and also follow a three year pattern.

My Lutheran pastor usually preaches about the gospel reading although occasionally he might preach instead about one of the other readings for that day from the Old Testament or the epistles (but not often). As a result, I know that the pastor sometimes gets difficult passages that he might not always want to preach on. Although what my Lutheran pastor preaches every Sunday is called a “sermon”, it sound closer to what you have called a “homily”. Overall, I’ve learned a lot more about what is in the Bible in my Lutheran church than what I ever did as a Baptist because the Lutherans use a three year lectionary.

Yes - I am sure you have - Lutherans are one of the Liturgical Churches I mentioned - Episcopalians too … and yes - we tend to follow the same three year cycle of readings [its a 2 year cycle for daily Mass readings] … I can say that at times - when the readings were not to the pastors interests/theology/or other - in both Lutheran and Episcopalian churches I attended - they would deviate … Perhaps they got some push back fro parishioners - I guess I do not know … but in my experience - they had more ability to do that - not so the Catholic Priest

I also believe it is possible some protestant ministers sermon’s can be more like a homily - but that too is at the preference of the Pastor …

I have attended many different protestant churches … in my experience - the most scripture content in the Services is in the Catholic Churches …

 

[StevenFrancis]

I’m not sure who keeps the stats on all these people “leaving the Church” in all these droves or herds people keep talking about.

But for what it’s worth, in my own human experience in North Las Vegas, Nevada, USA, our parish (and Diocese), are growing at rates which it is difficult to keep up with. We’re filled to capacity, as are our sister parishes, with our overflow room full, and people standing in the lobby watching mass on TV screens we’ve had to install out there. I live in the most depraved, sin riddled, God forsaken piece of real estate on the face of the planet earth, and we’re bursting at the seams with people coming IN to the Church. I’ve heard that many countries in Africa and Asia are having the same booms. I think the overall number of Catholics continues to grow each year. The demographics are changing, that’s for sure. The East coast of the U.S. is waning, as is most of Western Europe, but that just reflects one culture essentially.

I think rumors of our Churche’s demise are exagerated and premature. Catholic radio is popping up in more and more markets, including 93 KHJ in Los Angeles. Seminaries are growing, but not fast enough. Please pray for vocations. That’s the only place I think we’re going to be hurting for a while, until more young men are inspired to priesthood. Once again, I think Africa and Asia are doing better on that front as well.

Peace, and Happy New Year,

Steve

 

[steve_b]

This is so puzzling to me. I have seen many, many Catholics who never were seen at Mass leave for other denominations, where they seem so enthusiastic. How to explain this?

Too often people chalk it up to ignorance. That’s possible, I don’t dismiss that, but Personally I’m not so quick to give that excuse for all those folks. The reason being, information (i.e. knowledge) has never been so easily accessable than it is today. With a smart phone, one can look up anything in seconds. How many actually try and learn their faith that way is probably low. OTOH they can find inconsequential minutia in seconds. And as the CCC states ignorance isn’t always innocent. Particularly when 1791

Then there is the issue of divorce and remarriage without an annulment. With divorce approaching 60% in this country, that stat unfortunately hits Catholics as well, and that puts alot of Catholics in mortal sin. If they don’t do something to fix that, guess what happens? Since they can’t receive the Eucharist in mortal sin then they think why go to mass? After that reality, then you can fill in the blanks.

 

[TimothyH]

I’m not sure who keeps the stats on all these people “leaving the Church” in all these droves or herds people keep talking about.

But for what it’s worth, in my own human experience in North Las Vegas, Nevada, USA, our parish (and Diocese), are growing at rates which it is difficult to keep up with. We’re filled to capacity, as are our sister parishes, with our overflow room full, and people standing in the lobby watching mass on TV screens we’ve had to install out there. I live in the most depraved, sin riddled, God forsaken piece of real estate on the face of the planet earth, and we’re bursting at the seams with people coming IN to the Church. I’ve heard that many countries in Africa and Asia are having the same booms. I think the overall number of Catholics continues to grow each year. The demographics are changing, that’s for sure. The East coast of the U.S. is waning, as is most of Western Europe, but that just reflects one culture essentially.

I think rumors of our Churche’s demise are exagerated and premature. Catholic radio is popping up in more and more markets, including 93 KHJ in Los Angeles. Seminaries are growing, but not fast enough. Please pray for vocations. That’s the only place I think we’re going to be hurting for a while, until more young men are inspired to priesthood. Once again, I think Africa and Asia are doing better on that front as well.

Peace, and Happy New Year,

Steve

This was exactly my point earlier in the thread. I question the basis for this thread, that “So many Catholics” are leaving the Church.

Seventeen million people joined the worldwide Catholic Church in 2009. That’s more than the entire population of the Southern Baptist Convention.

-Tim-