So...should artificial birth control be illegal too?

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Just as a gentle point: There is no such thing as “Catholic morality” and “nonCatholic Morality” in the sense that Catholics, say, have one ‘teaching’ that is not to be held as authoritative by ‘nonCatholics’.

The so-called “Catholic morality” is, in fact, the ‘only’ morality. (Catholic means universal and there’s a reason we are called Catholics). Thus, we are all held to this ‘universal’ teaching of God. Naturally we are free to accept OR reject the teaching. (plenty of Catholics do indeed reject teachings though God grant that they repent and strive to live all those teachings if they have ‘fallen’ at a previous time)

Condom use is not moral. . .not just for Catholics but for nonCatholics too. It deprives the sexual act of a necessary function (procreative). Furthermore, if it is used as a secondary ‘protection’ against an STD, while the intent may seem good and laudable, the means is not. Slapping a condom onto the problem of rape, AIDS, etc. does NOT address the root cause, and in fact makes the situation worse. How many people think that so long as a condom is used it’s ‘all right’ to have ‘mutual sex’ outside of marriage (because since you won’t ‘be punished with a child’ it’s all good? It’s not!)

Sure, we’ll have Catholics jumping on the bandwagon and bleating that they’ll never ‘impose THEIR morality’ on another. :Poppycock. Apparently it hasn’t occured to them (and I am NOT directing this at any poster, but making a general observation here) that by kowtowing to the ‘relativist’ who bleats ‘I can’t impose’, they are letting THOSE people impose THEIR beliefs onto us Catholics! (think about that for a minute.) Imposition is apparently ‘wrong’ unless it’s imposing whatever society (not God but 'society) deems is ‘right.’
So do you believe that condoms and other barrier methods for birth control should be illegal for Catholics? For everyone?
 
Is it virtuous to refrain from commiting a sin that is impossible to commit? No.
Virtue means you could commit the sin, but you develop the strength to resist it.
You want to eliminate sin by eliminating the possibility to sin.
You want to make it easy. Lock you in a room by yourself and you can’t fornicate.
Does that make you virtuous? No.
If that was what God wanted, he wouldn’t have given us free will.
The point of Christianity is to develop virtue.
So, we chuck all the laws out the window and expect everyone to develop virtue?
 
The other problem I see is that we are too focused on the symptoms and not addressing the cause. If we focused our attention of eliminating unwanted pregnancies, abortion would go away by itself. This is my major objection to campaigns to stop abortion. They’re short-sighted. They focus on preventing today’s unwanted pregnancies from ending in abortion instead of focusing on the reason the unwanted pregnancies occur.
I agree with this thinking more and more. I’m slowly moving away from the thinking that the only answer is illegal abortions.
 
Oh and I am not surprised to see that some of the posters think these other things should be illegal too…and that since our Faith is the True Faith everyone else should be held accountable to it by man-made laws.
 
The other problem I see is that we are too focused on the symptoms and not addressing the cause. If we focused our attention of eliminating unwanted pregnancies, abortion would go away by itself. This is my major objection to campaigns to stop abortion. They’re short-sighted. They focus on preventing today’s unwanted pregnancies from ending in abortion instead of focusing on the reason the unwanted pregnancies occur.

.
The problem with this apporach is that it seems to be making the case that abortions are not immoral if they are the result of an “unwmated pregnancy”. Abortion is always wrong, there is never any excuse for itand if we elii9nated all povery tomorrow it would continue to occur.

The other problem is you seem to have bought into the “either or apporach”. that is we either make abortion illegal or we limit unwanted pregancines which supposedly cuts down abortions. we can do both. but we should never, never countenance laws that allow a mother to kill her child whatever her excuse may be.
 
Oh and I am not surprised to see that some of the posters think these other things should be illegal too…and that since our Faith is the True Faith everyone else should be held accountable to it by man-made laws.
Dont Cathiolics have just as much right to lobby have their moral beliefs enshrined in laws as does everyone else?

Of course we also need to note there is a huge difference between wanting to see mothers forbidden to kill their children and opposing the use of condoms.
 
Sure, we’ll have Catholics jumping on the bandwagon and bleating that they’ll never ‘impose THEIR morality’ on another. :Poppycock. Apparently it hasn’t occured to them (and I am NOT directing this at any poster, but making a general observation here) that by kowtowing to the ‘relativist’ who bleats ‘I can’t impose’, they are letting THOSE people impose THEIR beliefs onto us Catholics! (think about that for a minute.) Imposition is apparently ‘wrong’ unless it’s imposing whatever society (not God but 'society) deems is ‘right.’
In the case of abortion, how is the fact that it is legal forcing their beliefs on me? Does the fact that it’s legal force me into having one (against my beliefs)?
 
In the case of abortion, how is the fact that it is legal forcing their beliefs on me? Does the fact that it’s legal force me into having one (against my beliefs)?
ALL laws force beliefs on people. The fact that abortion is leglal degrades our culture, cheapens the value of life and has a detrimental effect on all of us. I have every right to try and make this barbaric practice illegal.
 
Rather than say there can be “religiously motivated laws”, I would say that each American has the right,“act on their conscience”, to lobby and vote in ways that reflect that conscience. If that conscience sees abortion as murder, then they have the right to speak out on this, vote for Pro-life candidates, and lobby their government to stop the killing of innocent children. If enough Americans believe that Abortion is murder then two things will occur.
  1. The number of abortions (legal or illegal) will fall,
  2. The Laws will be likely be changed to either severly restrict abortion or to make it completely illegal.
It is simply a matter which side of an argument gains enough the individual consciences to effect the action of the collective conscience.

Peace
James
Good point. There is a difference between religiously motivated laws and laws based on the tenets of any given religion.
 
First, artificial birth control should be illegal. Self-control should be taught as a standard. If a guy makes a girl pregnant in a consentual relationship, he should be held responsible. Hey, the woman did not get pregnant by herself.

In 1972, when certain women appeared on TV, we were told death would be the only way out for some of these young women. Did anyone bother to find these back-alley abortionists? Or was that just not a priority? If a desperate woman could find one, the police could find one. But no. We were also told in 1972 that Abortion Should Be Legalized because it will Only be used In Emergencies Like Rape and Incest or to Save the Life of the mother. Even God was mentioned.

Self-control is the answer. Not boy meets girl, they have ‘just sex’ and that’s the end of it.

We, The People decide.

Peace,
Ed
 
ALL laws force beliefs on people. The fact that abortion is leglal degrades our culture, cheapens the value of life and has a detrimental effect on all of us. I have every right to try and make this barbaric practice illegal.
Right.

The thing is, too, that abortion is wrong. It is murder.

“legalizing” abortion forces a lie (that abortion, being ‘legal’, is not ‘wrong’–is a ‘legitimate’ belief). . .and places that ‘lie’ as being ‘truth’.

Any time you replace the truth with a lie you have forced that lie onto people–not just the people who reject it but the people who embrace it.

Any time you replace the truth with a lie you weaken every person, even if the person never personally ‘experiences’, say, an abortion.

Did you ever read John Donne’s “No man is an island?”

“Every man’s death diminishes me, for I am involved in mankind. . .and therefore never send to ask for whom the bell tolls. It tolls for thee.”

John Donne wrote this in the early 17th century, nearly 400 years ago, but it rings as true today. All the deaths of those children have diminished us all. . .this ‘lie’ of ‘abortion rights’ has weakened this generation, not just in those who were killed but their parents who did the killing and those of us who have ‘stood by’. Yes, we’re talking about it, praying about it, sometimes even ‘standing up’ and going to jail for peacefully protesting about it. . .but still, we stand by. . .we are so weak in our faith that we aren’t ready to be martyred by society. Even on message boards too many “Christians” would rather look ‘tolerant’ and ‘intelligent’ by agreeing with society, rather than range themselves with the "God Squad’ who are painted as intolerant woman-hating freaks.

Well, here’s a woman who would rather be martyred in the ‘pillory of public ridicule’ and be falsely painted as the quintessence of stupid intolerant backward Christian craziness for ‘believing’ in a real, absolute God-given morality. Go ahead, throw the stones and blast me with the hate-filled rhetoric. Maybe if we have more ‘white martyrs’ willing to stand up for truth people will start listening. But the more we have so-called Christians oozing away or distancing themselves, the worse it’s going to be for them and society. Think we’re degraded compared to our parents and grandparents?

**Honey, y’all ain’t seen NOTHING yet. **I can’t even imagine the depths of sin and horror that are going to be accepted if we keep going on the same merry hell-ward way we’ve been going in the past 50 years or so.

Nearly 40 years ago I stood up in my high school and told them that by legalizing abortion they legalized murder, and it would lead to misery and degradation of women, men and children. I was laughed at them by most. I didn’t care then and I don’t care now. I was right then, and I was right now. And I’ll say the same now as I did then. . . We are reaping the whirlwind and bad as it has been, if we don’t repent and change, we are going to face worse, much worse. And it’s going to be not because a few ‘bad people’ were too strong and defeated the ‘good people’ --it will be because the ‘good people’ have become so corrupt and vitiated that they willingly embrace the evil. Black is white. Bad is good.

God help us.
 
**Honey, y’all ain’t seen NOTHING yet. **I can’t even imagine the depths of sin and horror that are going to be accepted if we keep going on the same merry hell-ward way we’ve been going in the past 50 years or so.
.
This was the message of HUMANAE VITAE. Nearly all of Poe Paul VI predictions on what artificvial contraception would lead to have proven to be true.
 
Right.

The thing is, too, that abortion is wrong. It is murder.

“legalizing” abortion forces a lie (that abortion, being ‘legal’, is not ‘wrong’–is a ‘legitimate’ belief). . .and places that ‘lie’ as being ‘truth’.

Any time you replace the truth with a lie you have forced that lie onto people–not just the people who reject it but the people who embrace it.

Any time you replace the truth with a lie you weaken every person, even if the person never personally ‘experiences’, say, an abortion.

Did you ever read John Donne’s “No man is an island?”

“Every man’s death diminishes me, for I am involved in mankind. . .and therefore never send to ask for whom the bell tolls. It tolls for thee.”

John Donne wrote this in the early 17th century, nearly 400 years ago, but it rings as true today. All the deaths of those children have diminished us all. . .this ‘lie’ of ‘abortion rights’ has weakened this generation, not just in those who were killed but their parents who did the killing and those of us who have ‘stood by’. Yes, we’re talking about it, praying about it, sometimes even ‘standing up’ and going to jail for peacefully protesting about it. . .but still, we stand by. . .we are so weak in our faith that we aren’t ready to be martyred by society. Even on message boards too many “Christians” would rather look ‘tolerant’ and ‘intelligent’ by agreeing with society, rather than range themselves with the "God Squad’ who are painted as intolerant woman-hating freaks.

Well, here’s a woman who would rather be martyred in the ‘pillory of public ridicule’ and be falsely painted as the quintessence of stupid intolerant backward Christian craziness for ‘believing’ in a real, absolute God-given morality. Go ahead, throw the stones and blast me with the hate-filled rhetoric. Maybe if we have more ‘white martyrs’ willing to stand up for truth people will start listening. But the more we have so-called Christians oozing away or distancing themselves, the worse it’s going to be for them and society. Think we’re degraded compared to our parents and grandparents?

**Honey, y’all ain’t seen NOTHING yet. **I can’t even imagine the depths of sin and horror that are going to be accepted if we keep going on the same merry hell-ward way we’ve been going in the past 50 years or so.

Nearly 40 years ago I stood up in my high school and told them that by legalizing abortion they legalized murder, and it would lead to misery and degradation of women, men and children. I was laughed at them by most. I didn’t care then and I don’t care now. I was right then, and I was right now. And I’ll say the same now as I did then. . . We are reaping the whirlwind and bad as it has been, if we don’t repent and change, we are going to face worse, much worse. And it’s going to be not because a few ‘bad people’ were too strong and defeated the ‘good people’ --it will be because the ‘good people’ have become so corrupt and vitiated that they willingly embrace the evil. Black is white. Bad is good.

God help us.
Thank you, very much. Another problem Pope Benedict has brought up is indifference. “Hey. What’s the big deal?” “What should you care what other people do?” The human family has become isolated camps of confused people. Either real truth exists or it does not. Some turn away from this issue because they think it’s too firmly entrenched - the abnormal has become normal or mainstream. First, pray. Then act. No, it doesn’t have to be dramatic. I saw dozens of people lining a busy street during “40 Days For Life.” They were all holding signs proclaiming the unborn as worthy of life. Young, old, men and women, and their kids. Be a witness to the truth as God gives you guidance.

I’m sure most of the people driving by noticed them.

Peace,
Ed
 
Oh and I am not surprised to see that some of the posters think these other things should be illegal too…and that since our Faith is the True Faith everyone else should be held accountable to it by man-made laws.
As already pointed out to you, abortion, contraception and divorce have been illegal or restricted in the US in the past–and the country was predominately Protestant when those laws were passed and enforced.
 
Is it virtuous to refrain from commiting a sin that is impossible to commit? No.
Virtue means you could commit the sin, but you develop the strength to resist it.
You want to eliminate sin by eliminating the possibility to sin.
You want to make it easy. Lock you in a room by yourself and you can’t fornicate.
Does that make you virtuous? No.
If that was what God wanted, he wouldn’t have given us free will.
The point of Christianity is to develop virtue.
God gives us free will–and criminals use their free will to violate secular laws. It’s not impossible to break the law.

Secular laws exist to help protect society, not to help us develop virtue. Abortion is not merely a private sin–it affects others, including–but not limited to-- the child who is aborted. Divorce is not a private sin–it affects others, again including but not limited to children. These things affect our society.
 
So, we chuck all the laws out the window and expect everyone to develop virtue?
I see you like putting words in my mouth. Laws, as I said, are for the smooth functioning of society. We drive on the right because it is a law and it is a law because if people drove on whichever side they pleased we would be in eternal gridlock. This is not a moral issue. The entire population of Great Britian is not immoral because they drive on the left.

I’m saying the point of a moral code is to develop virtue. Any religion that needs to turn its moral virtues into laws to get its members to conform is a wimpy religion. Catholicism has never been a wimpy religion. St Francis wasn’t required by law to adopt the virtues of poverty, chastity, and obedience. He undertook the rigors of these virtues of his own free will and for that we look up to him as a paragon of virtue.
 
I see you like putting words in my mouth. Laws, as I said, are for the smooth functioning of society. We drive on the right because it is a law and it is a law because if people drove on whichever side they pleased we would be in eternal gridlock. This is not a moral issue. The entire population of Great Britian is not immoral because they drive on the left.

I’m saying the point of a moral code is to develop virtue. Any religion that needs to turn its moral virtues into laws to get its members to conform is a wimpy religion. Catholicism has never been a wimpy religion. St Francis wasn’t required by law to adopt the virtues of poverty, chastity, and obedience. He undertook the rigors of these virtues of his own free will and for that we look up to him as a paragon of virtue.
Let’s try this one more time.

Murder.

Stealing.

These things violate the moral law.

There are laws against them.

Should we repeal the laws against murder and stealing because they are moral issues?
 
First, artificial birth control should be illegal. Self-control should be taught as a standard. If a guy makes a girl pregnant in a consentual relationship, he should be held responsible. Hey, the woman did not get pregnant by herself.

In 1972, when certain women appeared on TV, we were told death would be the only way out for some of these young women. Did anyone bother to find these back-alley abortionists? Or was that just not a priority? If a desperate woman could find one, the police could find one. But no. We were also told in 1972 that Abortion Should Be Legalized because it will Only be used In Emergencies Like Rape and Incest or to Save the Life of the mother. Even God was mentioned.

Self-control is the answer. Not boy meets girl, they have ‘just sex’ and that’s the end of it.

We, The People decide.

Peace,
Ed
First, artificial birth control should be illegal.
And for what reason, other than forcing people to convert to Catholicism, should condoms be made illegal?
 
Let’s try this one more time.

Murder.

Stealing.

These things violate the moral law.

There are laws against them.

Should we repeal the laws against murder and stealing because they are moral issues?
I believe you are merely pretending not to understand, so I am discontinuing this conversation.
 
God gives us free will–and criminals use their free will to violate secular laws. It’s not impossible to break the law.

Secular laws exist to help protect society, not to help us develop virtue. Abortion is not merely a private sin–it affects others, including–but not limited to-- the child who is aborted. Divorce is not a private sin–it affects others, again including but not limited to children. These things affect our society.
“secular laws”? Who created this term? Laws exist for the good of the entire community. Good laws should follow from good and moral choices, not value neutral choices. Police covering crimes like prostitution used to be called the Vice Squad.

Virtue is good - vice is bad. It’s that simple.

Peace,
Ed
 
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