So why cant we all be born Immaculate?

[sophion]

So why cant we all be born Immaculate?

If God can do that for 1 person, why not the rest?

The world’s gonna be a lot better place without the human flaws of insecurity, greed, lust, etc. Right?

 

[mangy_dog]

So why cant we all be born Immaculate?

If God can do that for 1 person, why not the rest?

The world’s gonna be a lot better place without the human flaws of insecurity, greed, lust, etc. Right?

Quid pro quo ???

Our nature is fallen due to original sin. Mary had a special mission that was contingent on her " Fiat". Therefore she is Theotokos; Aeiparthenos and Kecharitomene.

That is: Mater Dei; Semper Virgine and Gratia Plena.

 

[sophion]

Quid pro quo ???

Our nature is fallen due to original sin. Mary had a special mission that was contingent on her " Fiat". Therefore she is Theotokos; Aeiparthenos and Kecharitomene.

That is: Mater Dei; Semper Virgine and Gratia Plena.

Immaculate conception means being born free of original sin, right? So its possible not to inherit that. So why didnt God just do so with adam & eve’s kids? Why should we all (except Mary) suffer for the sins of the parents?

 

[mangy_dog]

Immaculate conception means being born free of original sin, right? So its possible not to inherit that. So why didnt God just do so with adam & eve’s kids? Why should we all (except Mary) suffer for the sins of the parents?

Immaculate Conception is a special priviledge for a special and unique mission of a special woman-Mary.

It is not possible to not inherit original sin. It has to do with our concupiscience or our natural tendency to sin despite God’s grace.

Adma & Eve’s kids, inherited the stain of original sin but in the judgement of Adam and Eve’s actions also came a promise to raise and redeem mankind: first through the “fiat” of the woman that would crush the head of the serpent and then from the fruit of her womb-Jesus who would conquer death and sin and re-establish friendship with the father through the body and blood of His only begotten son.

Both Mary and Her Son Jesus are promises and unique healing of our fallen nature.

Iecuc Xrictoc Nika !!

 

[Elizium23]

It was God’s will that he created Adam and Eve sinless. It was by their own free will that they chose to stray and sin against His commandment. It is God’s plan for us that we retain our free will, and our concupiscence, and that we have the choice to love him. Isn’t love greater when you freely choose it? Who loves his wife more, a man who got her pregnant and was forced at gunpoint to marry her or else, or a man who respected her enough to wait for the wedding night, after freely exchanging his consent with her in the public eye? Even more so can we love God when He has given us a free choice to do so.

 

[fred_conty]

So why cant we all be born Immaculate?

If God can do that for 1 person, why not the rest?

The world’s gonna be a lot better place without the human flaws of insecurity, greed, lust, etc. Right?

Mary is the mother of God. As such she would be the holy ark of the covenant carring the all holy and perfect son of God. It would be unfitting to say the least to have the son of God carried in an unholy person because of sin. So Mary was preserved in holiness from the first moment in preparation to carry the holiest of all, Jesus, the alpha and omega.

Since we are not mothers of God, we are not given that singular favor. If any of us had been chosen, we too would have been given that grace, not for ourselves, but for Jesus.

Good question.

“Hail Mary, full of grace…”

 

[sophion]

It was God’s will that he created Adam and Eve sinless. It was by their own free will that they chose to stray and sin against His commandment. It is God’s plan for us that we retain our free will, and our concupiscence, and that we have the choice to love him. Isn’t love greater when you freely choose it? Who loves his wife more, a man who got her pregnant and was forced at gunpoint to marry her or else, or a man who respected her enough to wait for the wedding night, after freely exchanging his consent with her in the public eye? Even more so can we love God when He has given us a free choice to do so.

are you saying that Mary had no free will and that her love was little? since she did not inherit original sin.

 

[sophion]

Since we are not mothers of God, we are not given that singular favor.

If adam’s sin stayed with him there would be no need for God to go on an earthly adventure. No need for a special mission. All would be well and virtually no one would go to hell. Isnt that better?

 

[R_C]

No, we are saying that she was born with sanctifying grace, not without it.

Ordinary people are born without sanctifying grace. This is conferred for the first time with the Sacrament of Baptism.

The Blessed Virgin was chosen among all women to be the mother of Christ, and for that reason at her conception she received sanctifying grace. Only another person in had received the same grace: Eve. Which is one of many reasons why Our Lady is called “the new Eve”.

Us, unfortunately, are born without that special gift (mind you, it’s a gift, not a right) of sanctifying grace. Before the redemption achieved by Christ, we’d never be able to receive that grace by ourselves. After His coming, we are all entitled to it by Baptism: not through our merits or by any power of ours, but by the merits and the power of Christ, whom we call our Savior and our High Priest, as well as the “new Adam”.

 

[sophion]

Us, unfortunately, are born without that special gift (mind you, it’s a gift, not a right) of sanctifying grace. Before the redemption achieved by Christ, we’d never be able to receive that grace by ourselves. After His coming, we are all entitled to it by Baptism: not through our merits or by any power of ours, but by the merits and the power of Christ, whom we call our Savior and our High Priest, as well as the “new Adam”.

why not? thats the point. if god can do that for mary, why not for everybody? save everyone the trouble. i dont get it.

it appears your alleged god’s grand plan is too see billions suffer. and to see countless souls in hell.

 

[R_C]

If adam’s sin stayed with him there would be no need for God to go on an earthly adventure. No need for a special mission. All would be well and virtually no one would go to hell. Isnt that better?

No. Adam lost something for himself and for his descendants. You are thinking in a very peculiar way, here. It’s as if a king gives me and my descendants a land, but I lose it. Do you expect the king to give it to my descendants after I die? Why? It makes no sense.

However, since it was the king’s will that I should indeed receive that inheritance that my forefathers lost, He himself came down and regained it by obeying where our forefather preferred to disobey, and by taking upon Himself the sufferings that by perfect justice had been earned by our forefathers and by us and by all those who are still to be born. It was no adventure, but it was a very special mission: the redemption of all humankind past, present, and future. A work that only God could accomplish.

And by the way, people would have sinned anyways. Just as Eve was tempted and preferred to listen to the snake, and just like Adam was tempted and preferred to listen to Eve, others would have been tempted and preferred to listen to the creature rather than to the creator - because we are inherently free creatures and we can choose evil over good if we want, and hell over heaven, though such a choice is indeed foolishness. Yet how many of us constantly make those very same choices in so many aspects of our lives.

 

[mangy_dog]

are you saying that Mary had no free will and that her love was little? since she did not inherit original sin.

Mary gave her “fiat”…so I ask you-was she free or not? Never mind, it’s rhetorical. Mary has always had free will.

It’s just that her free will is so much in union with God’s will that, to us it’s indistinguishable from non-will.

Mary Immaculate is the example of what happens when we are fully obedient to God’s will.

Salve Regina, Mater Dei !!!

 

[R_C]

why not? thats the point. if god can do that for mary, why not for everybody? save everyone the trouble. i dont get it.

Because we don’t deserve it. Mary, however, did deserve it, because she was chosen to be the mother of Jesus Christ.

Why don’t we all drink in golden chalices, while the Holy Mass is celebrated using such a chalice? Because our cups don’t hold the consecrated wine (which by the power of the Holy Spirit will be Christ’s very body, blood, soul, and divinity), they hold some ordinary drink meant quench our thirst and get merry. A cup meant to hold Christ, who is God Himself, must be prepared to be worthy of such a great deed.

If a great king was coming to visit you and your family prepared a great wonderful room for him, cleaning it, painting it, and perfuming it, would it amaze you that you didn’t get the same treatment? Would you really tell them that this is not fair and that they should do that for you too?

I know this may sound a bit odd, but it is offensive to God to question His reasoning and to envy other people’s gifts and blessings. If someone receives something that I did not receive, I rejoice for him…I do not feel bad because I didn’t receive it, nor do I accuse the giver of being unfair. Clearly there is something about that person that makes him/her more worthy to receive that gift than me.

By your reasoning, God should snap his fingers and end time and bring all into heaven. Things don’t quite work that way. Otherwise God Himself would not have come in the flesh and chosen to take upon Himself sufferings beyond understanding for our sake and for our salvation. Life is slightly more complicated than that, because freedom is quite something.

 

[sophion]

Because we don’t deserve it. Mary, however, did deserve it, because she was chosen to be the mother of Jesus Christ.

she only deserved it because she was chosen. yikes.

If a great king was coming to visit you and your family prepared a great wonderful room for him, cleaning it, painting it, and perfuming it, would it amaze you that you didn’t get the same treatment? Would you really tell them that this is not fair and that they should do that for you too?

who is god and who is mary in that analogy of yours?

I know this may sound a bit odd, but it is offensive to God to question His reasoning and to envy other people’s gifts and blessings. If someone receives something that I did not receive, I rejoice for him…I do not feel bad because I didn’t receive it, nor do I accuse the giver of being unfair. Clearly there is something about that person that makes him/her more worthy to receive that gift than me.

i dont even believe that mary had such a gift. i am merely questioning your belief here because it makes no sense.

By your reasoning, God should snap his fingers and end time and bring all into heaven. Things don’t quite work that way. Otherwise God Himself would not have come in the flesh and chosen to take upon Himself sufferings beyond understanding for our sake and for our salvation. Life is slightly more complicated than that, because freedom is quite something.

no. This is how things work: if you have a solution to a problem, you use that solution at the beginning before things get blown out of proportion. Thats how you fix things. You dont wait until things get magnified and then apply patch work after damage was already done.

 

[JM3]

Some things that I have come to understand and I am not aware that it is against Church teaching.

Mary is God’s perfect creation. No creation of God conforms to God’s will more than Mary. It is because of God’s love for Mary that God created everything. It is because of God’s love for Mary that He chose to combine His nature with hers. It is because of God’s love for Mary that we even exist. What has happened, from the first moment of creation to the end of time, God has allowed because of His love for Mary. It is because of His love for Mary that He has set her above everything, but Himself. Some angels have fallen because they refused to love and honor Mary. I would not want to be numbered among them.

 

[sophion]

Some things that I have come to understand and I am not aware that it is against Church teaching.

Mary is God’s perfect creation. No creation of God conforms to God’s will more than Mary. It is because of God’s love for Mary that God created everything. It is because of God’s love for Mary that He chose to combine His nature with hers. It is because of God’s love for Mary that we even exist. What has happened, from the first moment of creation to the end of time, God has allowed because of His love for Mary. It is because of His love for Mary that He has set her above everything, but Himself. Some angels have fallen because they refused to love and honor Mary. I would not want to be numbered among them.

Now that explains everything! LOL!

we were all made to suffer for Mary to be special!

yikes.

 

[JM3]

Now that explains everything! LOL!

we were all made to suffer for Mary to be special!

yikes.

You suffer because you have no charity. I pray that God will forgive you.

 

[Ridgerunner]

she only deserved it because she was chosen. yikes.

who is god and who is mary in that analogy of yours?

i dont even believe that mary had such a gift. i am merely questioning your belief here because it makes no sense.

no. This is how things work: if you have a solution to a problem, you use that solution at the beginning before things get blown out of proportion. Thats how you fix things. You dont wait until things get magnified and then apply patch work after damage was already done.

I’m not sure what an “agnostic theist” is. Seems a bit like an oxymoron to me, but you have some concept of what it means and we can leave it there, except to wonder what powers, intelligence, etc, you attribute to the god you do believe in.

For Christians, the God we posit is limitless in His powers and intelligence, and we do not purport to know all of His ways or thoughts. One can deride that concept if one wants, and insist on an entirely comprehensible God. But if one does so insist, one could, by that very fact, conclude that such a god is not really a god.

If some scientist posited that somewhere in the universe there were beings as vastly more advanced than me as I am from a sea slug, nobody would really question that. If, of course, that being was that much more advanced than me as I am from a sea slug, it’s reasonable to believe that I could no more understand its intelligence and ways than the sea slug can understand mine. In fact, the sea slug doesn’t even know of my existence, let alone my inmost thoughts, unless I touch it. Then, and only then, does the slug know anything about me. But it is pointless for me to try to teach math to the sea slug because all it can do is register touch. So, I am limited in my ability to communicate with the slug.

Again, we wouldn’t particularly doubt that somewhere in the universe there are beings that would have to talk to us in ways that were at least minimally comprehensible to us, but which would have to leave off trying to tell us the things that we cannot comprehend, no matter what.

Once one admits that such differences in beings are possible, then we can no longer require total comprehensibility of God. In fact, the very definition of “God” precludes our total comprehension. If we could fully comprehend God, we would necessarily be God.

Now, it’s interesting to speculate on the Adam and EVe story. What was the state of innocence. What was the sin? What is “knowledge of good and evil”? We don’t actually know. Put into modern idiom, is it possible that one or two hominids arrived at a point at which they could choose human freedom over animal slavery to nature? I think we all consider that animals don’t sin. How could they? They don’t have the rational powers we have. They’re slaves to their natures.

But we really can choose. Is this what the Adam and Eve story was all about? Maybe, but we don’t know.

Now, if God is even close to what the Christians believe, He is capable to knowing the future because the future is within Him. It’s part of Him. It’s not really so odd to consider that God could, by intending it, foresee the perfection of Mary in all of her ways and that she would freely choose them. And is this, perhaps, what being born immaculate really means?

Well, we don’t know that either. But then, if we believe in a god that really is God, we have to admit of that possibility or even possibilities that we couldn’t possibly comprehend even if they were told to us. To think otherwise is to believe in a god that is not God, but some mesne being between us and what really would be God.

 

[sophion]

You suffer because you have no charity. I pray that God will forgive you.

must you get personal?

i’m not even talking about myself but of mankind in general…
look at those young kids starving to death. its all because of the human flaws.
look at the wars. the hatred. the persecutions. the bigotry. the immorality.

 

[sophion]

I’m not sure what an “agnostic theist” is. Seems a bit like an oxymoron to me, but you have some concept of what it means and we can leave it there, except to wonder what powers, intelligence, etc, you attribute to the god you do believe in.

you would if the thread i created to answer the people who asked me did not disappear for some reason.

Now, if God is even close to what the Christians believe, He is capable to knowing the future because the future is within Him. It’s part of Him. It’s not really so odd to consider that God could, by intending it, foresee the perfection of Mary in all of her ways and that she would freely choose them. And is this, perhaps, what being born immaculate really means?

well then all the more reason to fix the problem before it balloons.
unless its not really close.