So why cant we all be born Immaculate?

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sophion said:
so is to judge him falsely with the accusation that he has no charity.
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Falsely? Where is the charity in your posts. I have not seen it. Rolling your eyes at people and laughing at them is not charity. Belittling people for what they say or believe is not charity.
 
sophion said:
If adam’s sin stayed with him there would be no need for God to go on an earthly adventure. No need for a special mission. All would be well and virtually no one would go to hell. Isnt that better?
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If Adam and Eve were disobedient to God even though they were created in holiness and righteousness, what makes you think that you, I, or anybody else wouldn’t disobey God if we came into the world without original sin? In fact, I think we can all say we are sinners.
 
JM3 said:
Falsely? Where is the charity in your posts. I have not seen it. Rolling your eyes at people and laughing at them is not charity. Belittling people for what they say or believe is not charity.
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i’m laughing at people? no i’m laughing at ideas. i’m laughing at the examples i come up with.
i have not ridiculed anyone here.
I am being respectful despite the fact that some had made subtle insults against me.
too bad you dont see that as charity. :rolleyes:

i wonder what you see as charity…when people agree with you and says “praise the lord”?
 
sophion said:
i’m laughing at people? no i’m laughing at ideas. i’m laughing at the examples i come up with.
i have not ridiculed anyone here.
I am being respectful despite the fact that some had made subtle insults against me.
too bad you dont see that as charity. :rolleyes:

i wonder what you see as charity…when people agree with you and says “praise the lord”?
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:rolleyes: - This is ridicule.

“i wonder what you see as charity…when people agree with you and says “praise the lord”?”

This is disrespectful.
 
JM3 said:
:rolleyes: - This is ridicule.

“i wonder what you see as charity…when people agree with you and says “praise the lord”?”

This is disrespectful.
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Peace, JM3.
If you dont mind i’d like to go back to the heart of the discussion. 🙂
 
sophion said:
i’m laughing at people? no i’m laughing at ideas. i’m laughing at the examples i come up with.
i have not ridiculed anyone here.
I am being respectful despite the fact that some had made subtle insults against me.
too bad you dont see that as charity. :rolleyes:

i wonder what you see as charity…when people agree with you and says “praise the lord”?
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You have been engaged in baiting for some time now. Why the mods put up with it I don’t know. But it is pretty clear you are not looking for any kind of understanding or truth. :sad_yes:
 
sophion said:
i’m not even talking about myself but of mankind in general…
look at those young kids starving to death. its all because of the human flaws.
look at the wars. the hatred. the persecutions. the bigotry. the immorality.
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Yes, these things are because of HUMAN flaws–not just Adam’s and Eve’s, but yours, mine, and pretty much everyone else’s. These are not flaws in God, but in us.

You seem to be making the assumption that human beings only sin because we were born with Original Sin, and that is not true. Adam and Eve did not have Original Sin, and yet… they chose to sin, anyway. Love requires that God respond to that sin.

A child does not learn to be a good person if there is no consequence for doing wrong.

To take away all suffering and all temptation to sin would not help us–it would simply give us no choice; no free will. We would not be able to sin, but we also would not be able to choose to love; we would be like little robots, just following our programming.

Yet in spite of our flaws, our sins, and our bad choices, God still loves us. Like any loving parent, He does not desire our suffering, but knows that sometimes suffering is necessary. He responds to our suffering in the only way that makes sense and truly expresses love–by being present. He became one of us; He suffered for us, and suffers with us. He understands our suffering, and shares in it with us.

Much of the human suffering we see stirs us to respond; we may take the opportunity to show compassion, mercy, kindness, love, and generosity. Too often, we fail at this, and instead choose only to look the other way or to point the blame at someone else (including God).

I remember reading a cartoon where one person says to another, “If I could ask God one question, I would ask Him why He doesn’t *do something *about all this suffering I see going on in the world.” The second person says, “I’d be afraid that He’d ask me the same thing.”
 
Linusthe2nd said:
You have been engaged in baiting for some time now. Why the mods put up with it I don’t know. But it is pretty clear you are not looking for any kind of understanding or truth. :sad_yes:
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I agree with Linus on this. Let’s be respectful here on CAF and not post intentionally argumentative threads. If this thread wasn’t meant to be argumentative, then let’s keep it peaceable.

To answer the OP:

As well as I understand, we cannot all be Immaculate because humanity was given a choice, and now we must bear the result of that choice.

Adam was our representative. In disobeying a direct command from God along with Eve, he damaged humanity’s relationship with God. Our Imago Dei, our Divine Image, is permanently stamped with the results of that choice. It’s broken, and we cannot fix it without God’s help. Original Sin wasn’t just rule breaking, but a real, permanent mutilation of the soul. Everyone is born with that. The angels had their choice too, and we know what happened to Lucifer and his followers.

But even as He cursed the Serpent in the Garden He said:

And I will put enmity between you and the Woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel. (Gen. 3:15)

This is the first instance of the foreshadowing of Jesus, Satan and Jesus–serpent and offspring–are enemies, and Jesus comes to “crush [Satan’s] head” and redeem us from our sin, to fix what only the Son of God can fix.

None of the evil in this world is God’s fault. He is not the cause of our problems; we have free will, and unfortunately we can use it for wrong. But without free will we cannot really love God, because real love isn’t forced. It’s because He loves us that God gives us a choice. He allows us to come to him willingly, to serve him out of love as our father, and not out of servile fear like a slave to a master.

“For God so loved the world, he sent his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16)

We made our choice, and we live with that. But God loves us so much that he made one very special exception to the rule–Mary–without Original Sin, so that she with her free will could choose to be the means by which the Son of Man came into the world. She is our sole boast. Eve made the wrong choice, but Mary made the right one.

And with Jesus, God gives us one more choice. We still have our free will. He won’t make us accept or love Him, but Jesus’ death on the cross gives us a way out of our sin. He died for everyone, to buy us back and redeem humanity from its failure.

You asked why everyone can’t be Immaculate. Well, that’s Mary’s job as our Mother, but through her cooperation with God we do have a way to become free of sin. The Son of Man, the Lamb of God, is our sacrifice and our redemption from the Fall. It is a tough thing, but we can battle against our sinful inclinations with God’s grace. Not only that, we can beat it. No one can be sure of their salvation, but neither can anyone say they don’t have a chance to be holy.

Free will hasn’t gone anywhere. God still asks us to choose him, and he never forces Jesus’ love on us. Perhaps instead of asking why everyone can’t be Immaculate, you should ask why everyone able to choose God hasn’t. If we all accepted our Redeemer, this world would be a much happier place.

Whew. A bit long. Somebody with more intelligence than me please correct any wrongs in the above–I’m new to this Catholic thing. Sometimes my Protestantism just comes out of me.
 
CatholicRaven said:
Yes, these things are because of HUMAN flaws–not just Adam’s and Eve’s, but yours, mine, and pretty much everyone else’s. These are not flaws in God, but in us.
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thats why is said “human flaws”
CatholicRaven said:
You seem to be making the assumption that human beings only sin because we were born with Original Sin, and that is not true. Adam and Eve did not have Original Sin, and yet… they chose to sin, anyway. Love requires that God respond to that sin.
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they had one inescapable flaw…the ignorance and inexperience of youth. they were kids in the bodies of adults.

what i am assuming is without the flaws of greed, lust, etc a person who has knowledge of good and evil would have no reason to sin. even if he does, that would be extremely rare.
CatholicRaven said:
To take away all suffering and all temptation to sin would not help us–it would simply give us no choice; no free will.
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i have asked this many times…are you saying mama mary who had no original sin had no choice and no free will? not able to choose love? was she like a robot?
CatholicRaven said:
Yet in spite of our flaws, our sins, and our bad choices, God still loves us.
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If the stories are true then he is the one who created you flawed. I just cant see how love is applicable when someone condemns you for succombing to the flaws he gave you. 🤷 i am a father. i dont want my kids flawed if i can help it.
CatholicRaven said:
Much of the human suffering we see stirs us to respond; we may take the opportunity to show compassion, mercy, kindness, love, and generosity. Too often, we fail at this, and instead choose only to look the other way or to point the blame at someone else (including God).
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you dont have to see a murder victim to feel kindness, love and compassion. just seeing the newborn is enough.
 
sophion said:
So why cant we all be born Immaculate?

If God can do that for 1 person, why not the rest? 🤷

The world’s gonna be a lot better place without the human flaws of insecurity, greed, lust, etc. Right?
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The East doesn’t subscribe to this belief.
 
God did make a place free of sin, Heaven. Heaven is God’s grace, his love. If he made everything perfect his no sin , no pain, no suffering how could you truely appreciate love. Imagine living in a world where its always light, then you are placed in a pitch black room full of obstacles and asked to move around. After banging around for a few minutes the lights are turned back on. How much more do you appreciate the light now?

God allows sin and suffering to draw us nearer to him. He gave us night and day, Sun and moon, light and dark why wouldn’t he give us Heaven and hell, love and hate, happiness and suffering. Everything in perfect balance. Remember what you’re asking for he’s already provided for you. But you follow Him, and yes at times suffer, so you can receive the fullness of His love and grace. He’s giving you exactly what you’re asking for. The difference is you want it on your terms, not His.
 
sophion said:
So why cant we all be born Immaculate?

If God can do that for 1 person, why not the rest? 🤷

The world’s gonna be a lot better place without the human flaws of insecurity, greed, lust, etc. Right?
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because…:hmmm: it wouldn’t be fair on Adam and Eve…
 
sophion said:
you would if the thread i created to answer the people who asked me did not disappear for some reason. 🤷
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This is no good.

If you are unwilling to express your beliefs about the nature of God, or “the gods” or whatever you believe in, then there is no way to explain anything concerning the Catholic faith to you within any frame of reference you might imaginably understand or accept. It seems as if perhaps you’re just baiting people here with expressions like “mama mary”, which you can’t help knowing is very offensive.

Possibly that’s why this former thread you talk about has disappeared. Purely offensive threads with no content tend to do that, and rightly so.
 
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