So why do you think we have so many scandals in the Catholic Church?

[anode]

Let me make one thing perfectly clear to you… A pedophile who is a priest was a pedophile/predator before he was a priest and will always be a pedophile/predator regardless of what profession or vocation he chooses. The priesthood is just one of them. Pedophiles/predators are notorious for seeking out positions that put them in close proximity of potential victims e.g. within the family, or as teachers, scout leaders, day care workers, youth pastors, music pastor, or pastor of this or pastor of that, or whatever job that affords them access to kids. It is not unique to Catholic Priests. To suggest otherwise is disingenuous, slanderous, and outright false.

Now for a full accounting of SA in the religious sector read this LINK.

I did not imply that pedophiles were unique to the RCC. Certainly they are attracted to other vocations which work with youth, as you pointed out. But the RCC was a unique, very large institution, much larger than the average Boy Scout troop, which attracted and sheltered them for years. The RCC was triumphal and assailable for years everywhere in the Western world, throughout the 19th and 20th centuries up to Vatican II. The RCC had and continues to have a rigid hierarchical structure which could not be questioned by mere laity, and certainly not by the hapless boys in the charge of priests, whether in a summer camp in the US or a warehouse in Ireland–who would believe them?

Slander and lies are not what was conducted here.

This was crime and abuse on an *industrial *scale.

 

[angelic06]

George Weigel, in his book “Courage to be Catholic”, makes a good case as for why there are many scandals in the Catholic Church. He notes that in the years post-VII, many a times a feminist nun would come in and harass the seminarians. He also notes that often a vocations director would weed out candidates who are too Catholic in their beliefs, if you will. Read the book, I strongly invite you all.

 

[wmscott]

I did not imply that pedophiles were unique to the RCC. Correct, you may not have, but there are many here that want to make this a Catholic issue. Certainly they are attracted to other vocations which work with youth, as you pointed out. But the RCC was a unique, very large institution, much larger than the average Boy Scout troop, which attracted and sheltered them for years. And yet the numbers of incidences within the Protestant institution as a whole is greater. The average Boy Scout troop is just one “Smaller” example, how about the teaching profession, we have to send all of our kids there, what about within the family, nowhere to run there, is there. Citing the “Average Boy Scout Troop” seems to me as an attempt at minimizing the rest of society’s complicity in this issue. The RCC was triumphal and assailable for years everywhere in the Western world, throughout the 19th and 20th centuries up to Vatican II. The RCC had and continues to have a rigid hierarchical structure which could not be questioned by mere laity, and certainly not by the hapless boys in the charge of priests, whether in a summer camp in the US or a warehouse in Ireland–who would believe them? **That was then, this is now. What is being done now? Do you know? Call the Diocese in your area and ask them what is in place to prevent and report SA and who they are responsible to. Then call the local “Bible” church and ask them the same questions. You are going to come away with a different perspective than you have now. **

Slander and lies are not what was conducted here. Maybe not by you, but by others in this thread and in others concerning this subject. Truth is truth, and the truth is that the CC is not immune or innocent of this issue.we get it, we acknowledge it, we own it, but we are fighting against it. I am also not saying that the subject cannot be discussed with the CC as its focus, however the ones that want to take this subject as an opportunity to attack the Catholic Church and the Priesthood does nothing to further discussions and leads to heated responses and finger pointing. Make it relevant, make it factual, and make it in context. Leave out the bigoted attacks and dialog can progress

This was crime and abuse on an *industrial *scale. Yes, I agree and that industrial scale is all of society and its institutions and vocations. It is not exclusive to any one race, creed, color, religion, institution, or vocation

 

[Jon_Hus]

I know that you do not have a comprehension problem, so you must not have taken the time to carefully read the post. It is relevant, lelhajj’s thoughts, his/her prayers, his/her opinion, and message is clear enough. Just because it does not say what you want it to say does not make it any less important for her to express here. You certainly have had plenty of opportunity to put your thoughts forward. I might also add that in other threads that I have seen where you were posting, you to have inserted your thoughts that were not germane to the discussion. THEREFORE, what is you point and what exactly is your contribution to this post in asking this kind of question. To me it seems that you are attacking lelhajj for expressing his/her views.

I’m not being critical of the dear poster, I’m just trying to understand the posters point. I don’t want to assume that the poster wants the whole thing to be swept under the rug so hence I ask the question… for clarity sake.

 

[wmscott]

I’m not being critical of the dear poster, I’m just trying to understand the posters point. I don’t want to assume that the poster wants the whole thing to be swept under the rug so hence I ask the question… for clarity sake.

Sorry, my bad.

 

[anode]

wmscott:
It is true that the abuse of minors–to include children and the underage, boys and girls-- is wide practiced–in schools, in religious and secular institutions alike–but it is scattered around and doesn’t appear to predominate in one particular type of ‘ministry’, although another poster has mentioned the storefront independent Protestant denominations as harboring more in their ministers, and this may be true (I haven’t examined this issue specifically). It is also true that the RCC abuses are, by in large, in the past, often by decades. AND the worst appear to have been in rather unique situations–Ireland and possibly also Germany, which for various reasons–German character, the Wars–although I feel that the pre-Vat II character of the RCC led not only to the abuses but also to their cover-up.

But a lot of this is being worked out now, although very painfully–two billion dollars of settlements in the US, for example, and what sounds like a lot of disillusionment and abandonment of the RCC in Ireland and in Germany where the RCC and organized Christianity were already at a low point, in Europe, whose patron is St. Benedict, for whom Ratzinger took his name. Make no mistake, the management of this scandal will mark his pontificate. He is 83 this year, still vigorous, but not getting any younger. No greater problem than this will involve him.

A painful lesson for all.

Rule #1: Always listen to your children.

 

[hawkeye]

It is really sad that our church has been on the news lately because of sexual abuse charges. A lot of believers have left our church, because of that.** I certainly believe the devil is behind all those cases**.

Your not wrong there, the d-evil is behind all sin, who is the author of it.

But we must not fall into the trap…Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 And they by the way side are they that hear; then the devil comes, and takes the word out of their heart, lest believing they should be saved. 13 Now they upon the rock, are they who when they hear, receive the word with joy: and these have no roots; for they believe for a while, and in time of temptation, they fall away. 14 And that which fell among thorns, are they who have heard, and going their way, are choked with the cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and yield no fruit. 15 But that on the good ground, are they who in a good and perfect heart, hearing the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit in patience.

It must be very hard for a priest to keep celibacy through all his life. I can not say much about their life, but, i can certainly thing that it must be a great struggle for a lot of them. I am not sure, but i do believe that the catholic church is one of the few religions that demands their priests to be celibate and therefore the pressure is very great on our priests

Married men abuse their own, so why did they do it if marriage was the insurance needed to cure the problem ? (women have also abused children, along with other married faiths.

Maybe a lot of men had suppressed feelings of homosexuality and join organizations where there will be a lot of men, and in their role as leaders, in a position to abuse children.

You can’t 100 % vet individuals, who’s deepest thoughts are only known to God alone, but it needs drastic changing, if many are to avoid the trap of satan, warned about in the Parable of Jesus above.

Anyone that abuses a child should be reported to the law, IE; law of the land, and not playing hide and seek with abusers, which has only done worse damage than if it had been dealt correctly in the first-place.

A festered wound without treatment, usually only gets worse.

 

[lelhajj]

my answer is: to be faithful to our faith. No te get discourage by human mistakes. Above all and above everybody in this universe, there is God and we must believe in Him and his teachings. All of us are humans and subject to make mistakes.

 

[KathleenGee]

I would like to see the same outrage be directed at our own country’s sexual excess…as well as what is happening in the rest of the world.

The secular world promotes sex and abuse.

 

[Lutheranteach]

Please kind Christian do not put words in my mouth. What I’m saying is simple enough to understand. Because of the coverup, a criminal case became a scandal. If it had stayed a criminal matter the effect would be considerably less. Of course you know this I’m sure.

What do you think are the chances that the end of this is in sight?

I think it goes well beyond any “error in judgement” to the point where it is knowingly, willingly and as a matter of policy protecting, aiding, and even abetting in a way those who have, and are known to be likely to commit some of the most heinous crimes on the books. In addition, it appears the standard policy was, after credible allegations were made, to discredit the victims, stonewall investigations and generally make it as hard for the victims as possible to get any closure let alone justice. If this was taking place in anything other than a church the doors would be padlocked and there would be more police and investigators than most people can imagine.

 

[lelhajj]

i did not know about the latest news about the priest in Milwaukee and how the church responded to such allegations. I can only watch bbc news here, so it just came up here on television. Still, i believe that i would never leave my religion and as i have stated before, all these are human mistakes and God will determine who is guilty and what punishment they should receive. About the little children who were abused, may God give them the strenght to overcome those sinful acts. It is a crime, indeed, but, it belongs to God and the Law to punish the perpetrators. It is true that by addressing the problem and act accordinly is the way to improve our credibility in our priests, but, as i said before, God mades no mistakes and He is fair. What He has preached is correct and we should live by it. What other human or human beings do, belongs to the human race. Priests might be intermediaries between this earth and God, but they are still humans and therefore imperfects as we are, all of us, nobody is excluded of making mistakes or commiting sins. Believe in God, because He is real, i am a living witness of one of his miracles and i tell you: God exists, do not be deterred by so many obstacles on your way to reach Him and believe in Him. May God always bless all of you.

 

[wmscott]

I think it goes well beyond any “error in judgement” to the point where it is knowingly, willingly and as a matter of policy protecting, aiding, and even abetting in a way those who have, and are known to be likely to commit some of the most heinous crimes on the books. In addition, it appears the standard policy was, after credible allegations were made, to discredit the victims, stonewall investigations and generally make it as hard for the victims as possible to get any closure let alone justice. If this was taking place in anything other than a church the doors would be padlocked and there would be more police and investigators than most people can imagine.

So tell me are you citing what happened in the beginning or what is happening today?

So let me ask, what safeguards does the Lutheran Church have in place? Has the Lutheran Church ever had a case of a pastor being a pedophile/predator? Did the Lutheran Church ever experience instances where credible allegations were made and the Lutheran Church tried to discredit the victims, stonewall investigations and generally make it as hard for the victims as possible to get any closure let alone justice? Or is this just a Catholic only issue?

 

[Jon_Hus]

…although another poster has mentioned the storefront independent Protestant denominations as harboring more in their ministers, and this may be true (I haven’t examined this issue specifically). It is also true that the RCC abuses are, by in large, in the past, often by decades. AND the worst appear to have been in rather unique situations–Ireland and possibly also Germany, which for various reasons–German character, the Wars–although I feel that the pre-Vat II character of the RCC led not only to the abuses but also to their cover-up.

.

You forgot to post the sources of your data. I would be interested in reading the underlying research you used.

Thanks,
Jon

 

[anode]

I would like to see the same outrage be directed at our own country’s sexual excess…as well as what is happening in the rest of the world.

The secular world promotes sex and abuse.

Right.

Blame it on the secular world, which has changed a lot since the decades in which most of this abuse took place.

Blame it on the devil.

Put the blame anywhere but where it lies, on the perpetrators themselves, and on those who enabled them, their bishops, and those in the Vatican who suspected what was going on, but who chose to do nothing. Avoid scandal, at all costs.

The big difference between all the other agencies who had pedophiles among them, the Boy Scouts, the schools, the church youth ministries, is that abuse, when discovered, was generally not tolerated. The abusers were *thrown out *and, increasingly, reported to the law.

But what marked the Catholic Church is not merely the presence of the pedophiles, but how their superiors handled the abusers. Keep silence. Avoid scandal. Disbelieve the accusers. Move the abusers around. Quiet. Quiet.

Now they are paying for it–big time.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I would agree. I’m tired of people making excuses for popes, archibishops, bishops and pastors and blaming it on society or the “hey, the church is made up of sinners, man” argument. The bottom line is that settling out of court is usually an admission of guilt of sorts, I resent paying for the protection of predators and the quieting of scandals with my Sunday donations, and I’m disgusted with how the Church has handled this. I will say, however, that the Church kind of can’t win with this situation. If they handed over these pervert scum quickly and openly, the liberal media will swoop down and talk about how the celibate clergy breeds a pedophile environment and look, look, look at the perverted Catholic Church and how they’re full of sex predators! If the Church tries to do things quietly, then the liberal media shouts cover up! cover up! perverts! cover up! So it’s a lose-lose. No one will compliment the Church for coming foward and being up and above board and no one will compliment their cover-ups either…sad altogether. But I prefer honesty, with due process, but not settling out of court…

Right.

Blame it on the secular world, which has changed a lot since the decades in which most of this abuse took place.

Blame it on the devil.

Put the blame anywhere but where it lies, on the perpetrators themselves, and on those who enabled them, their bishops, and those in the Vatican who suspected what was going on, but who chose to do nothing. Avoid scandal, at all costs.

The big difference between all the other agencies who had pedophiles among them, the Boy Scouts, the schools, the church youth ministries, is that abuse, when discovered, was generally not tolerated. The abusers were *thrown out *and, increasingly, reported to the law.

But what marked the Catholic Church is not merely the presence of the pedophiles, but how their superiors handled the abusers. Keep silence. Avoid scandal. Disbelieve the accusers. Move the abusers around. Quiet. Quiet.

Now they are paying for it–big time.

 

[Carlan]

Oh please… When are you just going to face reality??? Over half of the diocese in Germany now have complaints lodged fro child sexual abuse. The longer you folks keep your head in the sand, more and more attacks of this horrible nature are going to happen to children. You are so pro-life when it comes to abortions, why don’t you put your money where your mouth is in all facets of it.

Do you suppose the Scripture, 'He who is without sin cast the first stone, applies in all facets of the separated Church as well as it does in the Apostolic Church?
The Church is addressing the issue of Mortal sin, with God’s help.

What constructive help does the Separated Church offer in dealing with their own sin.???
Lord help your Church and all Christians follow the light and live the Truth.

Jesus have mercy on us and on the whole world.Carlan

 

[anode]

I would agree. I’m tired of people making excuses for popes, archibishops, bishops and pastors and blaming it on society or the “hey, the church is made up of sinners, man” argument. The bottom line is that settling out of court is usually an admission of guilt of sorts, I resent paying for the protection of predators and the quieting of scandals with my Sunday donations, and I’m disgusted with how the Church has handled this. I will say, however, that the Church kind of can’t win with this situation. If they handed over these pervert scum quickly and openly, the liberal media will swoop down and talk about how the celibate clergy breeds a pedophile environment and look, look, look at the perverted Catholic Church and how they’re full of sex predators! If the Church tries to do things quietly, then the liberal media shouts cover up! cover up! perverts! cover up! So it’s a lose-lose. No one will compliment the Church for coming forward and being up and above board and no one will compliment their cover-ups either…sad altogether. But I prefer honesty, with due process, but not settling out of court…

I don’t agree about the ‘can’t win’ thing–it’s true, the church is besmirched, but not in any way it is now with the cover-ups. IF the church had identified them, thrown them out, investigated seminaries, and in general taken the reins and cleaned house–there would be far less to attack. Huge media outcry, no compliments, and then…the media would have moved on to the next scandal. Later, grudging compliments on how it was handled, with other groups with similar problems following suit.

NOW, huge reparations, disillusions of millions, including Germany and Europe, Benedict’s prime territory, and the preoccupation of this pontificate and who knows how many more with this problem.

 

[CMatt25]

Oh please… When are you just going to face reality??? Over half of the diocese in Germany now have complaints lodged fro child sexual abuse. The longer you folks keep your head in the sand, more and more attacks of this horrible nature are going to happen to children. You are so pro-life when it comes to abortions, why don’t you put your money where your mouth is in all facets of it.

Carlan, Catholics point out all the time what they believe are the sins of others and say they are not judging one’s ultimate salvation. Do you call that casting stones? No one is judging anyone’s ultimate salvation here either. Only pointing out the hierarchy of Christ’s one and only true Church should know enough not to cover up child abuse.

 

[CMatt25]

Oh please… When are you just going to face reality??? Over half of the diocese in Germany now have complaints lodged fro child sexual abuse. The longer you folks keep your head in the sand, more and more attacks of this horrible nature are going to happen to children. You are so pro-life when it comes to abortions, why don’t you put your money where your mouth is in all facets of it.

Carlan, Catholics point out all the time what they believe are the sins of others and say they are not judging one’s ultimate salvation. Do you call that casting stones? No one is judging anyone’s ultimate salvation here either. Only pointing out the hierarchy of Christ’s one and only true Church should know enough not to cover up child abuse.

 

[Lutheranteach]

So tell me are you citing what happened in the beginning or what is happening today?

So let me ask, what safeguards does the Lutheran Church have in place? Has the Lutheran Church ever had a case of a pastor being a pedophile/predator? Did the Lutheran Church ever experience instances where credible allegations were made and the Lutheran Church tried to discredit the victims, stonewall investigations and generally make it as hard for the victims as possible to get any closure let alone justice? Or is this just a Catholic only issue?

These are the common ones:

brfelc.org/adobe/protectpolicy.pdf