Social Issues Within The Church

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JCC1990

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A few weeks ago, I began visiting the local Catholic Church near my house. It is a lovely little parish, and for the most part I’ve been greeted very kindly and welcomed by the community. The father of the church actually let’s me help set up mass on Wednesday nights since I always arrive early. I have started RCIA classes, been in them for a few weeks now, and everything is going great. I really have no problem with doctrine. For the most part anyways.

The only problem I have is regarding the social issues of our time. Namely, abortion and gay marriages. Now, I think it is important to give some background beliefs. I was Buddhist before going to this parish (I was raised protestant though). I believe the preservation of life (all life, not just us humans) is beyond important. To me, one of the worst things one can do is to hunt just so you can have a deer head on your wall (obviously hunting to eat is acceptable, as long as its not senseless). With that having been said, I personally am against abortion. I think it is acceptable in some circumstances though, being the lesser of two evils. If the mother’s life is at stake, or in the case of rape. Two stories come to mind, one happening in Chicago, where a woman was raped, she kept it, then the rapist got partial custody. 31 states have laws that say that partial custody can be granted to victims of rape. Could you imagine the pain that woman goes through every time she has to drop off or child? Or imagine having to explain to that child that he was not actually wanted and when the child discovers the implications. I couldn’t imagine the psychological trauma of it all. Then there is this story: content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1883598,00.html which not only shocked me, but also the community around her.

Now, I don’t wanna be misunderstood. If a woman gets pregnant by sleeping around of her own free will, that child is her responsibility. I am not advocating abortion just because, but only in serious circumstances.

The next issue will be a bit shorter. It is the issue of gay marriage. I know the Church stance regarding it and I respect it. However, I also know that the Church lobbies against this as well.

The main thing that I’m trying to get at here is that when I talked to my sponsor, he told me free will was a gift from God. One that I personally feel is one of the most important, if not the most important rights we have as human beings. I was also told that the Church accepts people where they are in life. I was told that if a homosexual wished to enter the church, they could do so, and he/she could built their faith and grow in righteousness. If the church succeeds in what they are lobbying against they are taking away the free will of non-catholics, who then will never be interested in joining the Church rather than being a beacon for it. While we’re at it, why not lobby to force mass upon every student, and force them to take up other things to which they may not care for? I do not mean to be offensive. But it seems that’s what they want; in this country at least (I’m not sure if it’s the same everywhere).

I always was taught that we should become Christ-like in our actions, and I don’t remember anywhere in scripture (at least what Jesus taught) where he used law to get His way, rather he lead by example.

I know this a difficult subject for some. But these issues has kept me from fully embracing the Church (as I’m sure it has many other souls) I have even contemplated to end my relationship with it. However Pope Francis has changed my mind about certain things, and his actions spoke to me greatly. The main question though is that would the Church (not the people) still accept me? I know I would be an outcast with the more conservative groups, but polls show that I’m not in the minority. Help me resolve this issue, like I said, this is the only thing keeping me from fully embracing the Church. Sorry for the long post, I hope I didn’t bore you guys too much.

Peace be with you Brothers and Sisters
 
It isn’t a responsibility. It is a life, no matter how it is conceived. Neither the actions of the mother nor the father change the merit of the child’s life.
 
So is farmed animals that are not only treated deplorably, but live miserable lives.

The issue I’m getting at here isn’t when does life begin, but rather free will, the churches role in controlling free will, and who the Church will accept.
 
If ‘we have free will’ equates ‘we shouldn’t have any laws preventing exercise of free will,’ then we need to get rid of all laws. Murder, drunk driving, rape, drugs. We most certainly better get ourselves out of issues of human trafficking and selling children for sex. Because these people also have free will given them by God.
 
JCC1990 said:

“Two stories come to mind, one happening in Chicago, where a woman was raped, she kept it, then the rapist got partial custody. 31 states have laws that say that partial custody can be granted to victims of rape. Could you imagine the pain that woman goes through every time she has to drop off or child? Or imagine having to explain to that child that he was not actually wanted and when the child discovers the implications.”

That seems like an excellent reason to change the laws surrounding custody. Note that this all happened within the environment of legal abortion.

By the way, all of us were the products of rape and/or slavery at some point in another in our ancestry, if you only look back far enough.
 
holyrood said:
If ‘we have free will’ equates ‘we shouldn’t have any laws preventing exercise of free will,’ then we need to get rid of all laws. Murder, drunk driving, rape, drugs. We most certainly better get ourselves out of issues of human trafficking and selling children for sex. Because these people also have free will given them by God.
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You know well that is not what I mean. Don’t misquote me. The issues I brought up are of a personal nature, pertaining to the person in question and God, nobody else. If I murder a person, I affect that person, the family, the friends. I already mentioned my concern for life. I mourn over any life lost. But sometimes the alternative cause less pain. That is not for you to judge.
 
JCC1990 said:

“The issues I brought up are of a personal nature, pertaining to the person in question and God, nobody else. If I murder a person, I affect that person, the family, the friends.”

Not really. If one aborts a child, that affects the child’s siblings, one’s own siblings, the grandparents of the child, the person or persons who would have been the friends, lovers, spouses and children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren of that child, and so forth. The work that that child would have done remains undone, and the life that they would have lived is unlived. Think of “It’s a Wonderful Life”–to remove an innocent human being from the world means to rip a hole in the universe where they should have been.

Likewise, with gay marriage. Marriage is a public relationship (hence the public ceremony, often with hundreds of people watching), rather than a private agreement. If it were private, there would be no need for witnesses or for documents or for legal rights.
 
Is the child of sexual assault better off dead? Are there other people whom you judge to be better off dead? Who are you to make that decision? Where is the “free will” for the victim?

Homosexual activity is always wrong, very dangerous physically and morally. Homosexual “marriage” is a cruel parody of God and nature.

God created us with a free will and the ability to make all sorts of evil choices. Christ’s Church has the responsibility to teach the correct choices.
 
Welcome JCC1990

It sounds like you are interested in the church and its precepts.

Good luck in your journey. I’m sure that many here will pray for you.
 
PaulfromIowa said:
Is the child of sexual assault better off dead? Are there other people whom you judge to be better off dead? Who are you to make that decision? Where is the “free will” for the victim?

Homosexual activity is always wrong, very dangerous physically and morally. Homosexual “marriage” is a cruel parody of God and nature.

God created us with a free will and the ability to make all sorts of evil choices. Christ’s Church has the responsibility to teach the correct choices.
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I’m not. I’m leaving it to the individual to decide. I came here with questions concerning the Church, of which I was interested to join. Nobody bothered to answer any of my questions I posed, but instead gave a black-and-white, not thought out at all answer. One person wish me well, to which I say thank you.

And, for the record, no one church owns marriage in the legal sense.

After this little mini Fox and Friends show, I’m going to have to strongly consider my future. Thank you fellows for opening my eyes.
 
JCC1990 - don’t leave yet.

Break down your questions into smaller parts and do some research on this forum first.

Ask some specific questions to see if you can get a clearer understanding of where the Catholic Church is coming from.

Some of the answers may seem a bit harsh or uncharitable to you right now. But that’s because we don’t have the luxury of sitting across a table and getting to know you first.

To the Catholics reading this - there’s a difference between being right and being heard. To be heard you must first hear. Get to know a person where they are at, and be welcoming. It’s what Pope Francis is preaching day after day.

We see thread after thread about Nulla Salus Extra Ecclesiam, yet when someone comes with questions we give them a scolding.
 
triumphguy said:
JCC1990 - don’t leave yet.

Break down your questions into smaller parts and do some research on this forum first.

Ask some specific questions to see if you can get a clearer understanding of where the Catholic Church is coming from.

Some of the answers may seem a bit harsh or uncharitable to you right now. that’s because we don’t have the luxury of sitting across a table and getting to know you first.

To the Catholics reading this - there’s a difference between being right and being heard. To be heard you must first hear. Get to know a person where they are at, and be welcoming. It’s what Pope Francis is preaching day after day.
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Okay. I will rephrase this as simply as I can. I am not pro-life. I am not pro-choice. I am in a gray area. I believe it would be allowed in extreme circumstances if an individual deems it in their best interest. Personally, unless my wife’s (hypothetically, I’m single haha) life was in danger, I would not have one done. I realize that not every person believes the same thing about different issues, it is completely unethical to force my opinion upon another person.

Am I welcome in the Church?

The answers seem harsh because they are. Just by reading it, you can tell they saw the word abortion, and called me a child murderer among other things.
 
JCC1990 said:
Okay. I will rephrase this as simply as I can. I am not pro-life. I am not pro-choice. I am in a gray area. I believe it would be allowed in extreme circumstances if an individual deems it in their best interest. Personally, unless my wife’s (hypothetically, I’m single haha) life was in danger, I would not have one done. I realize that not every person believes the same thing about different issues, it is completely unethical to force my opinion upon another person.

Am I welcome in the Church?

The answers seem harsh because they are. Just by reading it, you can tell they saw the word abortion, and called me a child murderer among other things.
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Sweetie, I don’t think anyone has called you names. It is just these things are posted time and time again and some people may feel like a broken record.
The Church views abortion as murder. To say that it is unethical to force your opinion on others when it comes to one type of murder is like saying that it is unethical to arrest mass murders. The tiny human in that female’s stomach has a soul and is a life.
I went through RCIA last year and when there were things I didn’t understand, I would pray and pray about it. God always pointed me in the right direction.
 
Op the church is opposed to both abortion and gay marriage. However not everyone in the church is the same way.
 
I never said it was right, I said it’s common to have different views than the church believes.
 
Dear OP,

it is true that sometimes it is difficult to see the Church’s perspective and reasons from the viewpoint of the current practices of the world. In the name of freedom of choice, many societies have come to accept gay marriage as a personal choice that does not infringe on the rights of anybody and should not be discriminated against.

However, in the history of the world, many practices that were commonly accepted in the societies of the time were nonetheless wrong. Child labor was present even in our “advanced” Western world until not too many years ago. Working 14 hours a day was another common practice. Every time the refrain was: “If I am willing to pay this person, and he is willing to work 14 hours a day for whatever pay I give him, what is the problem? it is a free agreement between us”.

The social conscience needs to evolve and gain a deeper understanding of the real rights and duties of every human being. The Church has always been to forefront of the struggle to build a society that is truly respectful of human life and dignity. That is why the Church cannot be silent on this kind of issues: being against abortion or gay marriage is not an optional to be chosen only by Catholics and sympathizers, it is an important issue for human society and the Church will lobby for this in the same way as it lobbied against slavery, child labor, and many other issues.

I hope that this answered your doubt about free choice.
 
JCC1990 said:
Okay. I will rephrase this as simply as I can. I am not pro-life. I am not pro-choice. I am in a gray area. I believe it would be allowed in extreme circumstances if an individual deems it in their best interest. Personally, unless my wife’s (hypothetically, I’m single haha) life was in danger, I would not have one done. I realize that not every person believes the same thing about different issues, it is completely unethical to force my opinion upon another person.

Am I welcome in the Church?

The answers seem harsh because they are. Just by reading it, you can tell they saw the word abortion, and called me a child murderer among other things.
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If a procedure to save a pregnant woman’s life ends up killing the child, that is not the same thing as aborting the child as the primary procedure. We refer to this as double effect, and while it is an unfortunate situation, it is understandable that sometimes these things will happen. As a note, these cases are rare - not nonexistent, but rare. Empirical evidence proves this point.

In the case of a rape victim, I still don’t see the just cause. You refer to the pain that the mother would go through to see the child and be reminded, etc. The big problem with this is, you are suggesting that a child’s life is worth this trade. I simply will never be able to accept that. Instead of suggesting that the child be killed, we should be working towards laws that would provide a woman with the help she needs in such a case - psychological (counseling for her trauma) and financial, for instance.

It just seems that progressive society writes of the situation as hopeless and figures that aborting the child is some equivalent to cutting losses. However, there are many studies that show a great deal of negative effects, psychological and physical, that can result from an abortion. We think it’s the easy way out but it can lead to a whole slew of other problems. If your thinking is to alleviate the stress of the woman, then I don’t think abortion is really the answer.
 
Dear OP,
When I joined the Catholic church, there were some things I struggled with. But we are told that if we sincerely desire to know the truth, we will be led to it, and I have found this to be true.
We are to submit our wills to the church and obey her precepts, and will learn in time why she teaches what she does. So I would suggest that you join the church, and learn the ins and outs of her position on these issues. Meanwhile, you probably will not be personally affected by abortion or homosexual unions, unless a relative has one of these problems.

Your opinions on abortion are understandable, but not logical. If an unborn child is a person, what do the circumstances of his conception have to do with anything? And it is very rare that the mother’s life is at stake so that she has to have an abortion to save it. In the case of ectopic pregnancy, for example, the tube must be removed to save the mother’s life, and the child dies, but it is not the goal of the doctor to kill the child, it’s an unfortunate side effect which the church accepts.
The Catholic church is the best thing on earth, and she has the Eucharist to offer us, the real presence of Christ. There is no better gift we can receive.
 
RedFox0456 said:
If a procedure to save a pregnant woman’s life ends up killing the child, that is not the same thing as aborting the child as the primary procedure. We refer to this as double effect, and while it is an unfortunate situation, it is understandable that sometimes these things will happen. As a note, these cases are rare - not nonexistent, but rare. Empirical evidence proves this point.

In the case of a rape victim, I still don’t see the just cause. You refer to the pain that the mother would go through to see the child and be reminded, etc. The big problem with this is, you are suggesting that a child’s life is worth this trade. I simply will never be able to accept that. Instead of suggesting that the child be killed, we should be working towards laws that would provide a woman with the help she needs in such a case - psychological (counseling for her trauma) and financial, for instance.

It just seems that progressive society writes of the situation as hopeless and figures that aborting the child is some equivalent to cutting losses. However, there are many studies that show a great deal of negative effects, psychological and physical, that can result from an abortion. We think it’s the easy way out but it can lead to a whole slew of other problems. If your thinking is to alleviate the stress of the woman, then I don’t think abortion is really the answer.
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The reason I choose the stance that I choose, is because of evidence. There is no credible evidence that says a properly preformed abortion causes any mental, or physical side effects. That is medical opinion, not mine.

The answers have gotten much better and more civil. I appreciate it. I am going to discuss this further with my sponsor tomorrow.
 
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