Social Issues Within The Church

[EasterJoy]

Okay. I will rephrase this as simply as I can. I am not pro-life. I am not pro-choice. I am in a gray area. I believe it would be allowed in extreme circumstances if an individual deems it in their best interest. Personally, unless my wife’s (hypothetically, I’m single haha) life was in danger, I would not have one done. I realize that not every person believes the same thing about different issues, it is completely unethical to force my opinion upon another person.

Am I welcome in the Church?

The answers seem harsh because they are. Just by reading it, you can tell they saw the word abortion, and called me a child murderer among other things.

I agree with the poster who pointed out that you go back and forth about the holiness of the life of the child, depending on the circumstances of the mother.

Let us say, of course, that this question will not come up if the mother wants the child. This is only about children the mother does not want to raise.

If the mother is not responsible for the existence of the child, then the unwanted child’s life is not holy (the being is alive but not human), and the child has no right to live. In that case, your desire to spare the mother psychological trauma outweighs the holiness of the child’s life. If, OTOH, the mother is responsible for the existence of the child, then the child has standing, even if the mother would find it emotionally difficult to live with such public evidence of her actions. In that case, the child has standing as a person.

But why? Why is the child a person with standing and a right to live and be given the dignity of any other human being in one case and not given that standing in the second case? Why is the mother forced to do what she does not want to do and why is the life of the unwanted child somehow less unbearable in the second case? Honestly, I cannot see what the mother’s cooperation or non-cooperation in the conception has to do with whether or not a child is liable to her decision to end its life in the womb. Your stance is internally inconsistent.

Consider what Pope John Paul II (to be declared a saint in April) said on this topic:
*In the chapter called The Defense of Every Life, Messori asked: “Your repeated condemnation of any legalization of abortion has even been defined as ‘obsessive’ by certain cultural and political factions which hold that ‘humanitarian reasons’ are on their side – the side that has led governments to permit abortion.”

Pope John Paul II responded:
For man, the right to life is the fundamental right. And yet, a part of contemporary culture has wanted to deny that right, turning it into an “uncomfortable” right, one that has to be defended. But there is no other right that so closely affects the very existence of the person!

The right to life means the right to be born and then continue to live until one’s natural end: "As long as I live, I have the right to live.” The question of conceived and unborn children is a particularly delicate yet clear problem. The legalization of the termination of pregnancy is none other than the authorization given to an adult, with the approval of an established law, to take the lives of children yet unborn and thus incapable of defending themselves.

It is difficult to imagine a more unjust situation, and it is very difficult to speak of obsession in a matter such as this, where we are dealing with a fundamental imperative of every good conscience – the defense of the right to life of an innocent and defenseless human being."*
lifesitenews.com/blog/heres-how-pope-john-paul-ii-handled-the-charge-of-obsession-with-abortion/

 

[tstrong728]

Okay. I will rephrase this as simply as I can. I am not pro-life… I am in a gray area. I believe it would be allowed in extreme circumstances if an individual deems it in their best interest. Personally, unless my wife’s (hypothetically, I’m single haha) life was in danger, I would not have one done.

The answers seem harsh because they are.

I’m sorry you think its a gray area but your position is pro-abortion. In another of your posts previously you referred to “it” (a baby is a human being, not an it) and in the above quote you refer hypothetically to “having one done” (requesting that your baby be killed) and allowing that its okay for a person to kill a baby if it’s in “their best interest” (the baby’s best interest is living, what about that?)

I know you “think” you mean well by sticking up for the conceptual right to kill a baby if… and so you choose to see these words of truth as “harsh”… but they’re not anywhere near the kind of “harsh” truth that your baby might be in for if you do find yourself in “a gray area”.

The bottom line is if you’re ever a parent-to-be, we already love your baby more than you do, it seems.

 

[RedFox0456]

The reason I choose the stance that I choose, is because of evidence. There is no credible evidence that says a properly preformed abortion causes any mental, or physical side effects. That is medical opinion, not mine.

The answers have gotten much better and more civil. I appreciate it. I am going to discuss this further with my sponsor tomorrow.

I decided to do some searching around. You claim there is no credible evidence. I have to wonder what you would consider to be credible. There are many published studies that state my case precisely, if not to a greater extent. Of course there are studies that suggest the opposite. You may have meant that the issue is still up for debate, but to say there is no credible evidence seems like avoidance.

While I was searching I found an interesting debate in which two doctors each gave their points of view - and really neither one was able to win the argument. What I found to be interesting was this woman’s quote in the comments. She explained she was pressured several times to have abortions and had this to say.

Termination is a big rip-off, it’s a lie because those children are not erased. They live on in the hearts and minds of women all over the world who remember the dates - termination dates, due dates, how old would they be now? What would they look like? What would they sound like? We will never know. Abortion - and I have done it three times - is not the answer. Not by a long shot. Contraception is not always fulll-proof. Society needs to support women who feel vulnerable and give them the strength to get through and give birth to the children they already have inside them.

That last part sounds quite a bit similar to my suggestion. Maybe the notion isn’t so crazy.

I know this isn’t exactly concrete evidence, but I would also ask that you consider that all sources have a bias. Some studies and professionals will be biased because of their beliefs in life. Others may be biased because they think a woman can choose. I don’t know of too many for-profit pro-life campaigns, however. Meanwhile, abortion is a very profitable business, and one would be crazy to think that no medical institution profiting from it would not try to protect their interests.

 

[EasterJoy]

Op the church is opposed to both abortion and gay marriage. However not everyone in the church is the same way.

With a billion Catholics in the world, there is not a single thing that every Catholic believes. Some are even atheists. Yet those who know the call of God, whether that is the fullness of the faith or the realization of some aspect of natural law, may not reject it. No, humans are instead bound to seek to know the truth and to live the truth to the degree they can comprehend it. Certainly no Christian who has a part in making laws may pretend to be ignorant of what objective moral law is. Read Romans; there is such a thing as an objectively-existing moral law. The moral law is not something they write at the Vatican. It is something written in the hearts of human beings, even if some hearts are impervious or act contrary to it. Every person will be judged concerning whether they defended and lived the truth as they were given to know the truth. To abdicate, to pretend one does not know the truth because one is surrounded by fellow law-makers (as the citizens of a democracy are) who do not know it, to reject it in order to not have to take any flak for saying it, is not an option. We will have to answer for such abdications.

This is saying of the Lord that all of the synoptic Gospels preserve:

He summoned the crowd with his disciples and said to them, "Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and that of the gospel will save it.

What profit is there for one to gain the whole world and forfeit his life? What could one give in exchange for his life? Whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this faithless and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels."
Mark 8:34-38

Then he said to all, “If anyone wishes to come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it. What profit is there for one to gain the whole world yet lose or forfeit himself? Whoever is ashamed of me and of my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.” Luke 9:23-26

No disciple is above his teacher, no slave above his master. It is enough for the disciple that he become like his teacher, for the slave that he become like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebul, how much more those of his household!

Therefore do not be afraid of them. Nothing is concealed that will not be revealed, nor secret that will not be known. What I say to you in the darkness, speak in the light; what you hear whispered, proclaim on the housetops. And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. Are not two sparrows sold for a small coin? Yet not one of them falls to the ground without your Father’s knowledge. Even all the hairs of your head are counted. So do not be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows. * Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father.*
"Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword. For I have come to set a man ‘against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and one’s enemies will be those of his household.’ "Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever does not take up his cross and follow after me is not worthy of me.
Matt. 10:24-38

IOW, the first Christians were bound to proclaim the Gospel even at the cost of their lives. We only have to do so at the cost of the opinions of others in the public square. If the first Christians were not allowed to keep the Gospel hidden even when it could have gotten them killed, how is that we think we could keep it hidden because it could get us politically vilified?

OP, do not think you can hold your acceptance of the Catholic faith over our heads as if this were a fraternity rush or some other popularity contest. You are bound to seek the truth, and if the people you have to deal with in order to live the truth annoy you, so be it. Do not put your desire to avoid annoyance ahead of your responsibility to believe what is true and live what is true. That is where your responsibility lies. Do not think that abandoning that quest because you got into a snit with someone is going to be on anyone’s head but yours.

Accept the Catholic Church because what it teaches is true, or else reject it because what it teaches is not true. Don’t let anything else distract you.

 

[tstrong728]

The reason I choose the stance that I choose, is because of evidence. There is no credible evidence that says a properly preformed abortion causes any mental, or physical side effects.

A properly performed abortion kills a child… of course that’s not actually a side effect, it’s the intended effect which is just horrifying. Abortion is MURDER.

Please, please don’t join if you can’t wrap your head around that concept… the church doesn’t need your brand of scandal.

Jesus didnt say “go and feel free to sin if you don’t agree with what the church teaches”… He said “Go and sin no more.”

The church teaches that abortion is a grave sin, so that’s the end of the discussion. If your sponsor leaves you with any other impression then your sponsor is wrong.

 

[tstrong728]

The issue I’m getting at here isn’t when does life begin, but rather free will, the churches role in controlling free will, and who the Church will accept.

You completely misunderstand free will.

Your free will is what would allow you to accept the truth (what the Church teaches).

So right now you are without free will because you refuse to choose to follow Church teaching… you are a slave to sin.

The Church is telling you the truth and offering to help you break free but you cant seem to stop yourself from sinning, you’re still a slave.

The Church will accept you, but in return you have to accept her. Right now, you’re rejecting her.

If you’re honest with yourself you can see, if you deceive yourself you are still blind.

 

[Starrsmother]

Part 1 of 2 parts:

So, let me take just a stab at answering your questions. There are a couple of things I need to tell you about me though first. One is that I’m a 62 year old women’s health nurse practitioner and nurse midwife. The second is that I’m married, have 5 kids, and my youngest–my daughter–is lesbian.

As to your becoming Catholic , I assume you aren’t planning to have an abortion personally or help procure one for someone else–regardless of your questions concerning it? If the answer to that question is no–then you are home free for now–take RCIA and let your conscience have a little time to develop more and see if in a year you don’t have a fuller understanding of why abortion is the same as murder and is a mortal sin. The issue is that when a woman gets pregnant–even in a terrible circumstance such as rape–though frankly, that’s such a small percentage of cases that it hardly bears discussing—you still have 2 people involved–a woman and her child. I can assure you that even a 6 or 8 wk old embryo is not–nor does it look like—a “clump of cells” just for the record. Believe me, I know. I’ve seen miscarriages at this stage and even earlier. It’s an obvious human baby—not like they tell you at Planned Parenthood at all! Why would it be alright for a woman to kill her child because of the sin of the father? The baby did not ask for life. Life was given to it by God–even if it sadly resulted from an immoral act such as rape. It’s no more right to kill a person at 6 weeks of life than to kill one at 2 years of life or 80 years of life. If a woman were impregnated by rape–put the child up for adoption if one is unable to face keeping it. And yes I agree that the woman in a custody fight with her rapist is a miscarriage of the law. But you’ll find that the more liberal the law gets, the more judges are out there who will make such ignorant decisions. There was a time when such a thing wouldn’t have even been thought of. But, a crazy judge can still not be used as a reason to kill a human being. Again though—give yourself time, read, learn, and think—and don’t participate in abortions—and in awhile, I suspect you’ll change your mind–you’re still young in the faith.

 

[Starrsmother]

Part 2 of 2:

Homosexuality is my least favorite subject at the moment. My daughter recently announced plans to marry her girlfriend and I’m very sad about it to put it mildly. I won’t go to her “wedding”, pay for it or participate in any way. If you think this makes me happy or that I feel sanctimonious or enjoy not being able to participate in her marriage, you are very wrong. I love my little girl SO VERY MUCH. BUT, here is the problem. God is who set the rules for marriage and said it must be between 1 man and 1 woman. God also said that sex outside of marriage is a mortal sin. Do we agree thus far? If not, look through the bible and read the 10 commandments again and you’ll see my point. Jesus reaffirmed that the Commandments still applied in the NT as well. The Catholic church does NOT teach that homosexuals are automatically going to hell because they are gay, or that they can’t fully participate in all the sacraments. What the church says is that you can’t be in the state of mortal sin and receive the sacraments. Thus, a heterosexual couple who is “shacking up”–as my generation called it–is living in sin and can’t receive the sacraments without going to confession and changing their living arrangement Sadly, no matter what secular law says, it is NOT a higher law than God! God set the 1-man-1-woman-rule—and when Jesus came, he upheld it, so the church simply says to gay coupls–“Gee, you can’t be married because God says “NO”—and, by the way, we also can’t marry you to your pet snake or to a dog or to a rock for the same reason–because God says it has to be 1-man-and-1 -woman.” So, if 2 same sex people live in a sexual relationship they commit a mortal sin and can’t receive communion–and the church can NOT marry them therefor, a practicing gay couple are perpetually in a state of mortal sin, aren’t contrite about the sin, and thus can/t/won’t go to confession or plan to try to sin no more—so they are in a bad place until when and if they decide to change their lives, which some do. But, as a Catholic, you can’t participate in such a wedding or advocate for one. Catholics are supposed to uphold Catholic teachings–even if they are struggling to accept the why behind them. Questioning the why is fine–but in the end, you have to to be willing to accept Catholic doctrine to be Catholic. And no, Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden are NOT good practicing Catholics no matter what they pretend or say. What they are doing in promoting abortion and same sex marriage publicly is a mortal sin–and by receiving communion while in the state of mortal sin, they lay another mortal sin on top of the first one! Not too smart a thing to do in my opinion! The Catholic church DOES teach that we mustn’t judge gays, or mistreat them and that we must reach out to them with all love and charity–just as with any other brother or sister. Active homosexuals can attend Mass–and if they do so, they aren’t thrown out and they should be unconditionally welcomed–just as we must welcome any other sinner out there. There are, after all, many sins and same-sex relations is only one of them. BUT, the church can not now nor will it ever marry a same sex couple, until when and if Jesus were to come down from heaven and change God’s own law—and what do you think the actual chances are of that happening? This is how I explained it to my daughter.

This is also the half of your question that gives me a little pause in saying you should absolutely go ahead with RCIA. You need to decide if you can accept church teaching on this issue because take my word for it–and this is not opinion, this is doctrine–the church is not going to change—because it can’t change. God did not give man a choice in whether we are obligated to keep His laws, nor did He take a poll at a Gay Pride Parade, nor does He say that times will change and so do His rules. AND the church is not into being PC about it–kind and loving yes, PC, no…

So, as to your view on abortion–you are already over half way there, and I think with time and learning, you will come to be un-accepting of abortion for any reason–that life is life and that to take a life at any stage or for any reason is still the taking of a life. It’s wrong to murder a homeless person or a mentally disabled person–even for reasons of convenience–and the same applies to babies of any age…And as long as you aren’t actively pursuing an abortion or helping with one, you can roll that around a while yet. But you can’t be a Catholic and attend a gay marriage or be out protesting in favor of same sex marriage, OR vote for it!. That would make you morally complicit and would be a mortal sin for you. So, I’d keep with the RCIA at least for now, and if you can accept and live with Catholic law then fine—but if you can’t —then you truly can’t be Catholic and you shouldn’t convert unless you can and do believe that the Catholic church is the correct and one true faith. If it is right and true–then you should want to live the way God says to, at least I’d think you would. Would you really tell God no to His very face–that He is wrong and you know better than He? And the whole gay marriage issue may–or may not–be a huge stumbling block for you–you need to think and decide for yourself.

Good luck and God bless!

 

[EasterJoy]

The Church will accept you, but in return you have to accept her. Right now, you’re rejecting her.

It is not the Church, an organization, that he’s being asked to accept. He’s being asked to accept the truth of the deposit of faith. The Church cannot change that in an effort to woo him; that would be an unthinkable abdication of duty.

 

[Winter_Warlock_1]

JCC,

The questions you ask – will always be debated. The issue is, the Church teaches respect for all life, they (we) try to let women – in the case of abortion – that there are other options: keeping and raising the child, adoption etc. Try to help her cope with what has or is happening, the Church would never refuse to help anyone. But the situations that you propose: rape or the mother’s life is in danger are very difficult questions – and I am not qualified to answer. But the only thing I can say is that regardless as Catholics we are to offer love and support.

As for the gay marriage issue, you are correct that the Old Testament spoke out against gay and Jesus made no mention of it – at least that I know of. But where do we draw the line? After gay marriage, do we allow polygamy, under age marriage ect. Yes this may seem farfetched but just 20 years ago if we discussed the possibility of gay marriage no one would have thought that something like that would be debated. There comes a point in time where lines in the sand need to be drawn, and there will always be those that disagree.

My opinion is: I do not tell anyone how they should live their life, but I also refuse for anyone to tell me that I have to accept the way that they choose to live.

Winter

 

[EasterJoy]

JCC,

The questions you ask – will always be debated. The issue is, the Church teaches respect for all life, they (we) try to let women – in the case of abortion – that there are other options: keeping and raising the child, adoption etc. Try to help her cope with what has or is happening, the Church would never refuse to help anyone. But the situations that you propose: rape or the mother’s life is in danger are very difficult questions – and I am not qualified to answer. But the only thing I can say is that regardless as Catholics we are to offer love and support.

As for the gay marriage issue, you are correct that the Old Testament spoke out against gay and Jesus made no mention of it – at least that I know of. But where do we draw the line? After gay marriage, do we allow polygamy, under age marriage ect. Yes this may seem farfetched but just 20 years ago if we discussed the possibility of gay marriage no one would have thought that something like that would be debated. There comes a point in time where lines in the sand need to be drawn, and there will always be those that disagree.

My opinion is: I do not tell anyone how they should live their life, but I also refuse for anyone to tell me that I have to accept the way that they choose to live.

Winter

The Lord did mention unchastity, adultery, and licentiousness as actions that defile a person:

“But what comes out of a person, that is what defiles. From within people, from their hearts, come evil thoughts, unchastity, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, licentiousness, envy, blasphemy, arrogance, folly. All these evils come from within and they defile.” Mark 7:20-23

See also Matt. 15:18-20

Homosexual acts were widely-accepted in many parts of the Greek and Roman world and even homosexual union rituals were known and tolerated by the Romans, but the earth Church rejected them entirely. This is not new ground, but very old ground that was addressed from the very beginning. Abortion, abortifacients, rape, and out-of-wedlock pregnancy were also well-known. Abortion was utterly rejected as an option.

 

[CarrieSpooner]

JCC1990 - have you read much from the Church regarding the teachings on these two social issues? I used to be pro-choice and pro-“gay marriage” until I read the deep intellectual Church writings on the topics and they completely convinced me of the error of my ways. I am now very passionately pro-life and pro-sanctity of marriage. What, if any, writings have you read from Catholic Theologians and Church Fathers on these specific topics? Maybe you can make a list and I can recommend some others that you may not have come across.

I would like to address a few points. The first is that laws do not take away free will. People commit crimes on a daily basis so clearly free will still exists. Laws do a few things, such as discourage behaviors, provide an outlet for restitution, prevent government/tax payer funding and offer some protection. In the situation of “gay marriage”, a law that would prevent it, would offer protection for the definition of marriage. As it stands now, changing marriage from a very specific situation to include another (but not all) very specific situation, fundamentally changes the definition of marriage. What gives lawmakers the right to do this? It is harming others. I can think of some situations off the top of my head – a Catholic family running a religious bed and breakfast was sued for declining to host a gay wedding on their property. They lost the lawsuit and were fined severely. Now Catholics are literally forced to host gay wedding ceremonies against their moral code or be forced to close up shop. In another state, a photographer declined to photograph a gay wedding and was also sued and also lost. He may photograph the gay person for a pasport photo or a graduation photo, etc…but no, that’s not enough. By law, he absolutely MUST be a part of the wedding by photographing it as it’s occurring and receive money for doing so or he is in trouble with the law. That’s what happens when we redefine marriage. This doesn’t even touch what this does to the formation of our young people’s consciences. It does great damage. We must reject the mindset that sin only effects the individual who is doing it. That is a lie straight from the evil one.

In the case of abortion, it is never ok to decide that someone else’s life is not worth living. Never. You can speak of the trauma that a person may go through in their life, surrounding their conception birth or anything after that but that still does not mean that any one of us should be able to decide that such a person does not deserve his own God given life. Understanding this will change your life. It will help you know God better and it will help you know yourself better. It is a fact. Today, I watched a man who is completely paralyzed from the neck down, talk about how thankful he is for his life because he gets to know Jesus Christ more and more each day. He said, “it’s no problem”. He has gratitude for every trauma, every obstacle. He praises God for not taking his life in the accident that paralyzed him because at that time, he did not yet know God. We come at this from a very secular attitude where we place value on human life based on cultural standards. The Saints can change this for us by showing us the joy of suffering. God told us to expect suffering and Christ told us to pick up our cross. Who are we to say, no, we will kill the person because they may have a cross? Jesus told us that whatever we do to the least of these, we do to him. So when someone aborts a baby, they are aborting Jesus Christ. And when we approve…when we say it is the lesser of two evils. we are saying that killing Jesus is less than another evil. This is the greatest lie I have ever heard in my entire life.

If you have trouble with these teachings, pray, pray, pray!! You can’t say, “Come Holy Spirit” too many times. “Help me in my unbelief”. As long as you can do these things, as long as you can seek the truth with all your heart, the truth will be given to you. In light of that, I would think you could still join the Church. Maybe you won’t be at the front line of a pro-life rally just yet but keep praying and seeking with your heart. God does not just want your mind, he wants your heart. He will give you the truth.

 

[EasterJoy]

These are passages from the Didache, which is essentially the oldest catechism still in existence. It dates from roughly 70 AD to 100 AD.

Didache 2:2
Thou shalt do no murder, thou shalt not commit adultery, thou shalt not corrupt boys, thou shalt not commit fornication, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not deal in magic, thou shalt do no sorcery, thou shalt not murder a child by abortion nor kill them when born, thou shalt not covet thy neighbors goods,

Didache 11:1
Whosoever therefore shall come and teach you all these things that have been said before, receive him;

Didache 11:2
but if the teacher himself be perverted and teach a different doctrine to the destruction thereof, hear him not; but if to the increase of righteousness and the knowledge of the Lord, receive him as the Lord.

 

[tstrong728]

It is not the Church, an organization, that he’s being asked to accept. He’s being asked to accept the truth of the deposit of faith. The Church cannot change that in an effort to woo him; that would be an unthinkable abdication of duty.

A distinction without a difference, the Church teaches only what is in the Deposit of Faith. There isn’t any way to reconcile Abortion with Catholic teaching, that isn’t an opinion it has been revealed and written about authoritatively by the Holy Father, so it’s in the Deposit of Faith… specifically, Abortion violates the Ten Commandments.

 

[CarrieSpooner]

I would ask you to try to have some empathy for the readers/responders here too. It can be very difficult for many of us to read someone defending the killing of an innocent baby. Once you have accepted certain truths, you will never see things the same again. Have mercy on those who may treat your harshly and try to understand that they may be reacting out of deep pain. This is not to say that you deserve harsh treatment – you absolutely deserve nothing but love and kindness! I just find that it helps me feel less upset when I take other people’s feelings into consideration.

The issue I’m getting at here isn’t when does life begin, but rather free will, the churches role in controlling free will, and who the Church will accept.

^I wanted to point something else out about this statement. What about the free will of the unborn child? At the moment of conception, a new life with new DNA forms – unique person, made in the image of God. Have you considered the free will of that new life? The Church has and does and that is why She absolutely must require that we all speak up for that person’s free will. It’s not just adults who find themselves in a bad situation who have the right to their free will but rather free will should be a right and dignity of every human person. What happens when we decide that we don’t want to make abortion illegal because it might disrupt someone’s choice to abort their baby? We take away the free will of literally millions upon millions of babies who are then killed in the most unthinkable ways. They do not get their free will in the absolutely true sense. They can’t even break a law to live. That is true loss of free will in the deepest sense.

And now look what has happened – 55 million + babies aborted in the United States. 1 in 3 women will abort their babies. In NYC, 60 of all African American babies are aborted. The abortion rates all around the country are shocking, to put it mildly. We constantly kill the most vulnerable who is Christ Jesus himself. To think this harms no one is just not accurate. But that is what happens when we think we couldn’t make a law to say no.

 

[tstrong728]

– you absolutely deserve nothing but love and kindness!

No! “Deserve” is absolutely an inaccurate word-choice. What we deserve is justice… we’re sinners so justice demands that we pay the price for our sins. But instead, because of Mercy we receive salvation from our sins when we believe in The Word. Jesus Christ is The Word and the Church is the Body of Christ, so we offer His Mercy and Salvation to those who “would” believe. “Would” and “will”… not “could” or “can”, because everyone can believe but mercy (salvation) is only given to those who choose to follow Him.

We give mercy and kindness not because we believe others (sinners) deserve it but because we choose to follow Him.

 

[CarrieSpooner]

No! “Deserve” is absolutely an inaccurate word-choice. What we deserve is justice… we’re sinners so justice demands that we pay the price for our sins. But instead, because of Mercy we receive salvation from our sins when we believe in The Word. Jesus Christ is The Word and the Church is the Body of Christ, so we offer His Mercy and Salvation to those who “would” believe. “Would” and “will”… not “could” or “can”, because everyone can believe but mercy (salvation) is only given to those who choose to follow Him.

We give mercy and kindness not because we believe others (sinners) deserve it but because we choose to follow Him.

Speak for yourself . I believe very child of God deserves to be treated with love by his brothers and sisters in Christ. I would go further and say we are required to do so.

 

[tstrong728]

If you have trouble with these teachings, pray, pray, pray!! You can’t say, “Come Holy Spirit” too many times. “Help me in my unbelief”. As long as you can do these things, as long as you can seek the truth with all your heart, the truth will be given to you. In light of that, I would think you could still join the Church. Maybe you won’t be at the front line of a pro-life rally just yet but keep praying and seeking with your heart. God does not just want your mind, he wants your heart. He will give you the truth.

You’re so desperate to be accepted that you’re compromising and leading others astray. Jcc doesn’t “have trouble” understanding… but is refusing to accept the teachings of the Church. If you’re going to pray, you first need to accept that you’re wrong period. Then you can ask for help understanding… but the first line of your prayer better be “Lord I know that abortion is always a sin, please help me to conform to your will.”

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

A few weeks ago, I began visiting the local Catholic Church near my house. It is a lovely little parish, and for the most part I’ve been greeted very kindly and welcomed by the community. The father of the church actually let’s me help set up mass on Wednesday nights since I always arrive early. I have started RCIA classes, been in them for a few weeks now, and everything is going great. I really have no problem with doctrine. For the most part anyways.

The only problem I have is regarding the social issues of our time. Namely, abortion and gay marriages. Now, I think it is important to give some background beliefs. I was Buddhist before going to this parish (I was raised protestant though). I believe the preservation of life (all life, not just us humans) is beyond important. To me, one of the worst things one can do is to hunt just so you can have a deer head on your wall (obviously hunting to eat is acceptable, as long as its not senseless). With that having been said, I personally am against abortion. I think it is acceptable in some circumstances though, being the lesser of two evils. If the mother’s life is at stake, or in the case of rape. Two stories come to mind, one happening in Chicago, where a woman was raped, she kept it, then the rapist got partial custody. 31 states have laws that say that partial custody can be granted to victims of rape. Could you imagine the pain that woman goes through every time she has to drop off or child? Or imagine having to explain to that child that he was not actually wanted and when the child discovers the implications. I couldn’t imagine the psychological trauma of it all. Then there is this story: content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1883598,00.html which not only shocked me, but also the community around her.

Now, I don’t wanna be misunderstood. If a woman gets pregnant by sleeping around of her own free will, that child is her responsibility. I am not advocating abortion just because, but only in serious circumstances.

The next issue will be a bit shorter. It is the issue of gay marriage. I know the Church stance regarding it and I respect it. However, I also know that the Church lobbies against this as well.

The main thing that I’m trying to get at here is that when I talked to my sponsor, he told me free will was a gift from God. One that I personally feel is one of the most important, if not the most important rights we have as human beings. I was also told that the Church accepts people where they are in life. I was told that if a homosexual wished to enter the church, they could do so, and he/she could built their faith and grow in righteousness. If the church succeeds in what they are lobbying against they are taking away the free will of non-catholics, who then will never be interested in joining the Church rather than being a beacon for it. While we’re at it, why not lobby to force mass upon every student, and force them to take up other things to which they may not care for? I do not mean to be offensive. But it seems that’s what they want; in this country at least (I’m not sure if it’s the same everywhere).

I always was taught that we should become Christ-like in our actions, and I don’t remember anywhere in scripture (at least what Jesus taught) where he used law to get His way, rather he lead by example.

I know this a difficult subject for some. But these issues has kept me from fully embracing the Church (as I’m sure it has many other souls) I have even contemplated to end my relationship with it. However Pope Francis has changed my mind about certain things, and his actions spoke to me greatly. The main question though is that would the Church (not the people) still accept me? I know I would be an outcast with the more conservative groups, but polls show that I’m not in the minority. Help me resolve this issue, like I said, this is the only thing keeping me from fully embracing the Church. Sorry for the long post, I hope I didn’t bore you guys too much.

Peace be with you Brothers and Sisters

It sounds like you are struggling with the Church and with yourself. There is a lot of me theology in what you are saying. “I think this, I think that.” And then you want the Church to conform to your view. As if 2000 years of watching the human condition and being inspired by God needs to conform to your view.

You cannot be Catholic in faith and not uphold the Church’s view on something so profound as the life of an innocent baby. You cannot love society and homosexual “rights” more than the Church and God himself who died for you. That is the very first commandment.

 

[tstrong728]

Speak for yourself . I believe very child of God deserves to be treated with love by his brothers and sisters in Christ. I would go further and say we are required to do so.

No, read the bible… deserve isn’t in there when it comes to how we treat others, but you are right about us being required to love everyone, even our enemies… not just our brothers and sisters. If you think I’m wrong search a concordance with “deserve”, let me know what you find.