Social Issues Within The Church

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None of these verses state what you claim. None of them speak at all to whether adopted sons and daughters deserve love from their brothers and sisters in Christ. You seem to be making a straw man argument based on whether people deserve God’s grace.
Do you think that you might have misunderstood what I’m saying?

I looked in the bible for “what we deserve” and could NOT find anything except that we deserve judgement.

So, I’m asking if you would be kind to me and point out where in the bible I can find that another person deserves love and kindness.

I agree that we are commanded to love them and be kind to them, but I really want to see what you’re referring to when you choose the word “deserve”? I very well could be wrong, so I want to open my eyes, in fact if you could even a quote from the CCC would work.
 
All I can say is wow.

I’m talking to my sponsor and, depending on what his advice is in this situation as well as my local fathers opinion. Depending upon results, you will never hear from ‘my kind’ again. With results like this, its no wonder the Church is in decline in the developed world. This is not about me; this is about where I am. I am not so stupid to just blindly accept what someone tells me. That is doing a disservice to God and to myself. To be honest, I have loved everything about the Church thus far, I’m not saying that my opinion can’t change, but I will not, force somebody to practice or believe what I do. That is an injustice, and is one of the most immoral things a person can do.

I’m done with this thread. If I have any follow up questions I’ll post them in a different one.

Thank you for opening eyes.
I don’t know if you will read this but I am very sorry. I agree with you, that you should not be stupid and blindly accept something that someone tells you. We can’t do anything on our own, we must seek with an open heart and then God gives us the ability to accept. I mentioned Peter Kreeft earlier as a recommendation to someone else but I would recommend to you as well. There are tons of videos of his speeches on youtube. He clearly explains why logic and reason is not enough to win over our minds. He also astutely points out that God is not after just our minds but our hearts. God gives just enough light for seekers to find the truth and just enough light that those who don’t want to know the truth will not be forced to find it. That’s free will. But you must seek with your heart and mind, not just your mind.
 
I’m surprised no one has posted from the CCC yet so:

2258 "Human life is sacred because from its beginning it involves the creative action of God and it remains for ever in a special relationship with the Creator, who is its sole end. God alone is the Lord of life from its beginning until its end: no one can under any circumstance claim for himself the right directly to destroy an innocent human being."56

2261 Scripture specifies the prohibition contained in the fifth commandment: "Do not slay the innocent and the righteous."61 The deliberate murder of an innocent person is gravely contrary to the dignity of the human being, to the golden rule, and to the holiness of the Creator. the law forbidding it is universally valid: it obliges each and everyone, always and everywhere.

Abortion

2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception.

From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.71

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.72
My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.73

2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion.
This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable.
Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.74
God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves.
Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.75

2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense.
The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life.
"A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,"76 "by the very commission of the offense,"77 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.78
The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy.
Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.

2273 The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:

"The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority.
These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin.
Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being’s right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death."79

"The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law.
When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined…
As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child’s rights."80

2274 Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being.
 
Do you think that you might have misunderstood what I’m saying?

I looked in the bible for “what we deserve” and could NOT find anything except that we deserve judgement.

So, I’m asking if you would be kind to me and point out where in the bible I can find that another person deserves love and kindness.

I agree that we are commanded to love them and be kind to them, but I really want to see what you’re referring to when you choose the word “deserve”? I very well could be wrong, so I want to open my eyes, in fact if you could even a quote from the CCC would work.
No, I never ordered you to read your Bible as you did to me. The Bible doesn’t contain everything we need to know. It is but one part of the deposit of faith. I make no assertions that The Bible specifically tells us that others deserve our love. The argument I make that does involve The Bible is that Jesus is His Body which is all members of the Body of Christ. Jesus himself deserves our love and whatever we do to them, we do to Him. If then, Jesus deserves our love, so do the members of his body because Jesus IS his Body. If you would like verses on these specific claims, I can paste them for you.

You claim that I am wrong and that the Bible says otherwise but were not able to provide any such references to Scripture other than deserving judgement from God himself. That’s not something I made any claims against. What I speak of is a continuity within the teachings of the Church about the dignity of the human person and how God’s grace transforms us into the life of Christ.
 
I agree that this thread is rather harsh… I’m sorry that this is your introduction to the church. Please don’t take these harsh responses as the church’s gospel.
God bless you.
My view of the Church, before going into it was a rather stereotypical one. One that conjurers images of mean nuns with rulers, scandalous priests, and more subtle bigotry than those found within the Fundamental circles. When I visited my first Church, all of those images were erased within the first visit of my local parish, I visited other parishes to find that they were all welcoming.

However, I should have just asked my sponsor rather than to come here. A very few handful of people actually paid attention to my actual question, ‘Would Christ accept me into the Church’. Rather what I got was ‘Accept this political agenda or God hates you and doesn’t want you’. They might mean well, but their words are clumsy and hate-filled. I mentioned before that I wish we live in a world where this isn’t an issue, but we do.

Evil only deals in extremes. And so far, that is what has greeted me, at least in this forum.
 
I don’t disagree with most of this however I do think it’s important to realize that people do deserve our love. The reason people deserve our love is precisely because they are members of the Body of Christ and Jesus himself is his Body. This is goes back to what I was saying earlier about how aborting a baby IS aborting Jesus. It all ties together and I think people who have not been indoctrinated are more aware of the hypocrisy of the message “no one should have an abortion” and “you don’t deserve my love”. The main message of Christ and his Church is missed there:

Ephesians 1:22-23
“And he has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.”

Jesus doesn’t just have a body, he IS his body. And we are members of his Body as children of God. Others deserve our respect and love precisely because they are members of Christ’s body and Christ IS his body. It is Christ who deserves our love and thus all of his members deserve it from us through their adoption into the life of Christ. This is why Jesus asked Saul, “why do you persecute me”, not “why do you persecute Christians”. I think it will be hard for many to understand our doctrine on the dignity of the human person without this key fact. If people do not deserve our love then it’s hard to argue against abortion or anything else. It’s only through God’s grace that we deserve anything. We can not merit this on our own.
I never said that others deserve anything other than our respect. I said that we should not teach ourselves to go around thinking about how we deserve respect. We certainly ought not think that “respect” includes freedom from correction when we are in error. To leave a brother in error in order to avoid all contention is not love. It is cowardice. Heaven forbid that we want our brothers and sisters to refrain from teaching the truth because we don’t take it well!

Pope John Paul II put what I think we are both saying this way: *Do not accept anything as the truth if it lacks love. And do not accept anything as love which lacks truth! One without the other becomes a destructive lie. *
 
My view of the Church, before going into it was a rather stereotypical one. One that conjurers images of mean nuns with rulers, scandalous priests, and more subtle bigotry than those found within the Fundamental circles. When I visited my first Church, all of those images were erased within the first visit of my local parish, I visited other parishes to find that they were all welcoming.

However, I should have just asked my sponsor rather than to come here. A very few handful of people actually paid attention to my actual question, ‘Would Christ accept me into the Church’. Rather what I got was ‘Accept this political agenda or God hates you and doesn’t want you’. They might mean well, but their words are clumsy and hate-filled. I mentioned before that I wish we live in a world where this isn’t an issue, but we do.

Evil only deals in extremes. And so far, that is what has greeted me, at least in this forum.
Welcome to the internet of human shame! :eek::rolleyes:😉

Don’t give up. 👍
 
I never said that others deserve anything other than our respect. I said that we should not teach ourselves to go around thinking about how we deserve respect. We certainly ought not think that “respect” includes freedom from correction when we are in error. To leave a brother in error in order to avoid all contention is not love. It is cowardice. Heaven forbid that we want our brothers and sisters to refrain from teaching the truth because we don’t take it well!

Pope John Paul II put what I think we are both saying this way: *Do not accept anything as the truth if it lacks love. And do not accept anything as love which lacks truth! One without the other becomes a destructive lie. *
But this is just another straw man argument. I certainly did not claim that correction should not be given. However, it should be given with love. The greatest act of charity is to lead someone to the truth. I’m not even a fan of sugar coating (to put it mildly). But we must be sure that our correction is done with love lest we sound like a noisy gong.
 
My view of the Church, before going into it was a rather stereotypical one. One that conjurers images of mean nuns with rulers, scandalous priests, and more subtle bigotry than those found within the Fundamental circles. When I visited my first Church, all of those images were erased within the first visit of my local parish, I visited other parishes to find that they were all welcoming.

However, I should have just asked my sponsor rather than to come here. A very few handful of people actually paid attention to my actual question, ‘Would Christ accept me into the Church’. Rather what I got was ‘Accept this political agenda or God hates you and doesn’t want you’. They might mean well, but their words are clumsy and hate-filled. I mentioned before that I wish we live in a world where this isn’t an issue, but we do.

Evil only deals in extremes. And so far, that is what has greeted me, at least in this forum.
I’m sorry it upsets you to find yourself at odds with Church teaching, but abortion and gay marriage are not political issues, not unless theft and deceit and other moral evils are also political issues. If the Church were to accept the teaching that you are making a condition of your discipleship, the Gospel will have been made mute. That can’t happen, and it will not. 🤷

(Rather stereotypical? Do you mean you find no hate or clumsiness in those “stereotypes”?)
 
I never said that others deserve anything other than our respect. I said that we should not teach ourselves to go around thinking about how we deserve respect.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church suggests otherwise:

From the CCC:

2212 The fourth commandment illuminates other relationships in society. In our brothers and sisters we see the children of our parents; in our cousins, the descendants of our ancestors; in our fellow citizens, the children of our country; in the baptized, the children of our mother the Church; in every human person, a son or daughter of the One who wants to be called “our Father.” In this way our relationships with our neighbors are recognized as personal in character. The neighbor is not a “unit” in the human collective; he is “someone” who by his known origins deserves particular attention and respect.
 
The argument I make that does involve The Bible is that Jesus is His Body which is all members of the Body of Christ. Jesus himself deserves our love and whatever we do to them, we do to Him. If then, Jesus deserves our love, so do the members of his body because Jesus IS his Body. If you would like verses on these specific claims, I can paste them for you.
Yes, please paste them.

If I have offended you in any way, I’m sorry - that wasn’t my intention, please forgive me.
 
So is farmed animals that are not only treated deplorably, but live miserable lives.

The issue I’m getting at here isn’t when does life begin, but rather free will, the churches role in controlling free will, and who the Church will accept.
The CCC

1739 Freedom and sin. Man’s freedom is limited and fallible. In fact, man failed. He freely sinned. By refusing God’s plan of love, he deceived himself and became a slave to sin. This first alienation engendered a multitude of others. From its outset, human history attests the wretchedness and oppression born of the human heart in consequence of the abuse of freedom.

The life of man - to know and love God

1 God, infinitely perfect and blessed in himself, in a plan of sheer goodness freely created man to make him share in his own blessed life. For this reason, at every time and in every place, God draws close to man. He calls man to seek him, to know him, to love him with all his strength. He calls together all men, scattered and divided by sin, into the unity of his family, the Church. To accomplish this, when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son as Redeemer and Saviour. In his Son and through him, he invites men to become, in the Holy Spirit, his adopted children and thus heirs of his blessed life.

2 So that this call should resound throughout the world, Christ sent forth the apostles he had chosen, commissioning them to proclaim the gospel: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."4 Strengthened by this mission, the apostles "went forth and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by the signs that attended it."5

3 Those who with God’s help have welcomed Christ’s call and freely responded to it are urged on by love of Christ to proclaim the Good News everywhere in the world. This treasure, received from the apostles, has been faithfully guarded by their successors. All Christ’s faithful are called to hand it on from generation to generation, by professing the faith, by living it in fraternal sharing, and by celebrating it in liturgy and prayer.6

36 "Our holy mother, the Church, holds and teaches that God, the first principle and last end of all things, can be known with certainty from the created world by the natural light of human reason."11 Without this capacity, man would not be able to welcome God’s revelation. Man has this capacity because he is created “in the image of God”.12

37 In the historical conditions in which he finds himself, however, man experiences many difficulties in coming to know God by the light of reason alone:

Though human reason is, strictly speaking, truly capable by its own natural power and light of attaining to a true and certain knowledge of the one personal God, who watches over and controls the world by his providence, and of the natural law written in our hearts by the Creator; yet there are many obstacles which prevent reason from the effective and fruitful use of this inborn faculty. For the truths that concern the relations between God and man wholly transcend the visible order of things, and, if they are translated into human action and influence it, they call for self-surrender and abnegation. the human mind, in its turn, is hampered in the attaining of such truths, not only by the impact of the senses and the imagination, but also by disordered appetites which are the consequences of original sin. So it happens that men in such matters easily persuade themselves that what they would not like to be true is false or at least doubtful.13

38 This is why man stands in need of being enlightened by God’s revelation, not only about those things that exceed his understanding, but also “about those religious and moral truths which of themselves are not beyond the grasp of human reason, so that even in the present condition of the human race, they can be known by all men with ease, with firm certainty and with no admixture of error”.14

748 "Christ is the light of humanity; and it is, accordingly, the heart-felt desire of this sacred Council, being gathered together in the Holy Spirit, that, by proclaiming his Gospel to every creature, it may bring to all men that light of Christ which shines out visibly from the Church."135 These words open the Second Vatican Council’s Dogmatic Constitution on the Church. By choosing this starting point, the Council demonstrates that the article of faith about the Church depends entirely on the articles concerning Christ Jesus. the Church has no other light than Christ’s; according to a favorite image of the Church Fathers, the Church is like the moon, all its light reflected from the sun.

750 To believe that the Church is “holy” and “catholic,” and that she is “one” and “apostolic” (as the Nicene Creed adds), is inseparable from belief in God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. In the Apostles’ Creed we profess “one Holy Church” (Credo . . . Ecclesiam), and not to believe in the Church, so as not to confuse God with his works and to attribute clearly to God’s goodness all the gifts he has bestowed on his Church.138
 
Yes, please paste them.

If I have offended you in any way, I’m sorry - that wasn’t my intention, please forgive me.
Here are a few that come to mind:

Matthew 25:40
“And the king will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family,[a] you did it to me.’”

Acts 9:4
“He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?””

Ephesians 1:22-23
“And he has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.”

and a link to the catechism on the topic - vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p2.htm

and I recommend this video to everyone! - Peter Kreeft On the Authority of the Catholic Church
 
LOL :banghead: True, Even though its a catholic forum, it is still the internet.

Thank you for your encouragement
Forgive me JCC1990 if others have already mentioned this. As the light that illuminates the path to the ultimate goal for us all, that being God, the Church must deal in absolutes that at times seem rigid and harsh. As you made clear you understand God Our Father loves all life because even a sparrow will not fall without His permission no less a baby made in His image containing a portion of Himself an immortal soul. My advice is pray to Him about the hard things to accept. Matthew 26:41pray that you will not fall into temptation. In other words by God’s mercy don’t allow me to be tempted in such a way for it may be too hard for me.

Regarding the gay issue pls read Romans 1:24-32 St. Paul makes an argument from nature. He is saying that the very notion of homosexuality is disordered and unnatural.
 
The Catechism of the Catholic Church suggests otherwise:

From the CCC:

2212 The fourth commandment illuminates other relationships in society. In our brothers and sisters we see the children of our parents; in our cousins, the descendants of our ancestors; in our fellow citizens, the children of our country; in the baptized, the children of our mother the Church; in every human person, a son or daughter of the One who wants to be called “our Father.” In this way our relationships with our neighbors are recognized as personal in character. The neighbor is not a “unit” in the human collective; he is “someone” who by his known origins deserves particular attention and respect.
You keep saying he deserves respect, but what post are you referring to? Where was he personally attacked, instead of corrected on whether his opinions were true? The first time I can find him complaining of bad treatment, he said he was called a child murderer. Unless I’m missing something, no one called him any such thing! They simply corrected his impression that giving an adult the choice to end a child’s life before birth was a “personal choice” and that the Church had no right to interfere with the exercise of “free will.”

If by respect you mean the freedom to post things that are factually wrong without correction, well, that isn’t respect. The Lord himself did not adhere to that concept of “respect”, and I still think it is wrong to teach people that it is right to expect that no one will ever correct you when your posts are seriously in error, particularly when the serious error concerns matters of such serious gravity.

If by being “accepted” in the Church he means will he be free to express his struggles with Church teaching, the answer is “yes, there are Catholics who admit that they struggle to accept some parts of Church teaching.” That inevitably happens.

If he means by being accepted that he can feel free to espouse incorrect views that he knows are against what the Church teaches as if they were just as true and worthy of belief as what the Church does teach, then the answer is “no, that is not acceptable.” People do it, but it is not appropriate. The Church is the authoritative teacher of faith and morals, and the faithful do need to strive to take everything to heart that she teaches, as do all who have the grace to choose to accept those truths. Those who can accept the truth must do it; that is the duty of all.
 
The Church’s stance on abortion and gay marriage are rigid, it is true. And I think many of the posters here are being unnecessariliy abrupt in their responses.

But I personally think that abortion and gay marriage (and contraception, and euthanasia, and so on) are a small part in the actual practice of living a Catholic life and being a member of the Church. Our Pope himself even stated recently that we are focusing far too much of our energy as a Church on these political issues - we need to focus more on the day-to-day concerns of our ministries in the world - healing those in need and evangelization come to mind. OP, I think you perceived this when you began participating in your parish and saw the wonderful things that were happening.

As others have stated before, as you learn more about the faith and start to see the big picture of how the Church reveres the holiness in our lives, many of these seemingly political issues will start to make sense.
 
This thread definitely shifted from healthy discourse to a series of inflammatory comments (from both sides). There is making your case and there is talking down to a person. Please remember that simply name-calling or attacking the opposition doesn’t make your viewpoint correct. Clearly I’m pro-life here, but a lot of the arguments have lacked much merit, I think. This is an issue that certainly is important and it’s easy for emotions to cloud clear thought, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be making an effort to be respectful and intelligent in our choice of words.
 
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