Social Justice groups such as JustFaith, CCHD, IAF

[Tigg]

Basically, I kind of feel like we are talking different languages. I talk about people mixing religion and politics; you respond about people who think that Catholics should not be involved in politics; I allude to bad Catholic schools, you respond that your school was very good. I respond to your mention of von Balthazar, you ask why I mentioned him there; I bring up a deviation on a *very basic point, *on the part of a man who is highly educated in Catholic thinking, you respond that no one is perfect; I don’t mention du Lubac, you drag him in (and Galileo, who was *not *a theologian).

I suspect that our differences in thinking are too great to resolve.

And when I use a simple, direct quote from the Catechism regarding the laity’s role, which no one could possibly misconstrue, I am told I’d better be careful because it’s a two-edged sword! huh??

It’s almost like we are on two different planets. We know that you admire both the USCCB and the CCHD almost without reservation. But, you have glossed over the shocking revelations of impropriety. Such attitudes are what lead to the problem in the first place, and will possibly lead to CCHD’s demise.

And here you have it! For all the flowery discussion of helping the poor and love of neighbor and what good the CHD has accomplished, it does not lend any credence to their good intentions when they are complicit in advocating abortion by their very financial support of it. This is fact and has not been addressed by anyone defending them.

I will say this without reserve. YES, I do believe the USCCB, as a collective body, has a political focus to the exclusion of their primary duty of Shepherding the Flock. Whatever is happening here? There are serious overtones of socialism within these groups; further, the old Marxist class envy and hatred of the rich is beginning to clearly be seen. Does no one else find this frightening? And do not ever forget the most evil component of all is that socialism determines that MAN, NOT GOD, is the Arbiter of morals.

 

[fultonfish]

That being the case, shouldn’t people who don’t have a higher education be docile to those who do as Mimi suggested in an early post? I don’t completely believe that people who don’t have a theological education should be docile to those who do. I’m trying to make a point. My point is that we all should be docile in a large degree to the teaching authority of the Church, not to Glen Beck. How can we have a truly Catholic conversation if we can’t even agree that the USCCB and the Vatican are Catholic institutions beyond reproach?

Yeah, us proletariat members should do what the Ivy Leaguers tell us to do. Right back to the plantation.

USCCB = Vatican. Not sure about that.

Does “the Vatican” include the Vatican post office? What is “the Vatican”?

 

[St_Francis]

It seems that every church document I have read and studied makes it very clear that we are first and foremost good and that the quintessential human struggle is to orient our love (which has been disordered by the fall) toward God instead of sin. But we start, and always remain good in the eyes of God.

I can’t see how this can be correct, if we are commit a mortal sin?

Every action or thought I have that draws me closer to God is the result of grace.

But it would also be a result of cooperation with grace, too, no?

WRT the CCHD, I do not understand this set-up. First of all, it does not seem that Catholics need to be involved. That seems just plain weird. It used to be that the Church spread through missionaries preaching the Word of the Lord. A lot of times, there would be hospitals, orphanages, schools, etc., set up in mission territories.

And these would be staffed *by Catholics. *By Catholics who were so strong in their faith that they had dedicated their lives to God.

I could see the USCCB setting up something like monastic communities which required shorter commitments of time instead of one’s whole life, but what I don’t understand is this giving of money to groups which aren’t even Catholic! Part of the old way of doing this was that people could see that the people who were helping them were praying and receiving the Sacraments, and this is obviously the most important thing. \

This is all something discussed in The Soul of the Apostolate.

 

[St_Francis]

I really don’t know why some people fight this idea of love in action. I really mean that. What is it about loving your brothers and sister in the way Jesus told us to do that you find so objectionable? I am really astounded at the resistance here. It truly saddens me that some Christians resist this foundational principle. I know I am going to get jumped all over for even asking this question. People are going to say things like. “All I have to do is love my family first” or the poor need to get themselves out of poverty because it is their own fault that they are poor. I work hard for all that I have, why should I help people who don’t want to help themselves first?” Or “it wouldn’t be Christian to do something for them that they need to do for themselves”…”CCHD isn’t love…it’s enabling”.

First i want to address this. I think that most Catholics are smarter and kinder than ou have made them out to be here. in fact, by this type of comment you are perhaps inadvertently *deflecting *any criticism we make. You should be aware of this so that you can avoid it in the future as it is pretty rude, when you think about it, and also not conducive to rational discussion.

… In really I think for many in this forum the problem is ideology. I suspect a lot of the dislike of CCHD here is because some people might find it too left leaning. Be honest; just say you don’t like anything that the left has to offer. Then we can get down to a real discussion and I suspect some in this forum would like to say that all things that the left has to offer is evil or springs out of misguided emotionalism.

In a certain respect, yes, there is a part of my disagreement with the 'social justice" groups in general that is because they are from the left and I totally disagree with the left, which has brought all sorts of evils to our society.

 

[Stylite]

ljpgoodwin,

You mentioned that you have worked as a diocesan director for the CCHD. I hope you can answer the following question for me: Would you support a simple change in the grantee selection process where grantees must PUBLICLY state their support for the Church’s social teachings including the right to life?

I think that would help prevent scandalous groups from receiving grants in the future.

 

[ljpgoodwin]

ljpgoodwin,

You mentioned that you have worked as a diocesan director for the CCHD. I hope you can answer the following question for me: Would you support a simple change in the grantee selection process where grantees must PUBLICLY state their support for the Church’s social teachings including the right to life?

I think that would help prevent scandalous groups from receiving grants in the future.

Sure, I would go for that.

 

[ljpgoodwin]

First i want to address this. I think that most Catholics are smarter and kinder than ou have made them out to be here. in fact, by this type of comment you are perhaps inadvertently *deflecting *any criticism we make. You should be aware of this so that you can avoid it in the future as it is pretty rude, when you think about it, and also not conducive to rational discussion.

In a certain respect, yes, there is a part of my disagreement with the 'social justice" groups in general that is because they are from the left and I totally disagree with the left, which has brought all sorts of evils to our society.

You are right, the left has brought all sort of “evil” even to the world. But I would point out it has brought all sorts of good too. I would also point out the right has brought just as much evil and good to the world too. By no means does the right have it all together.

 

[ljpgoodwin]

First i want to address this. I think that most Catholics are smarter and kinder than ou have made them out to be here. in fact, by this type of comment you are perhaps inadvertently *deflecting *any criticism we make. You should be aware of this so that you can avoid it in the future as it is pretty rude, when you think about it, and also not conducive to rational discussion.

In a certain respect, yes, there is a part of my disagreement with the 'social justice" groups in general that is because they are from the left and I totally disagree with the left, which has brought all sorts of evils to our society.

St. Francis, you are the only one who has actually treated me as if I had a brain. If you look at some of the posts from almost everyone else, they accuse me of all sorts of things, from narrow-mindedness to selfishness and varying degrees of blindness. There are regular accusations that the USCCB which is by almost every indicator a conservative body, and CCHD of participating in killing babies.
Take a look at what people have been saying in this forum about the poor. One post went so far as to say that the poor really don’t exist here in the U.S. and that it is their own fault that they are poor and that they are well taken care of. It’s this kind of language that astonishes me.
For the record, this Catholic Answers blog is by far the most conservative group of people that I have ever encountered. Not that there is anything wrong with being conservative. I happen to be rather conservative in many parts of my life as well. But it seems kinda overwhelmingly very, very right here. There does not seem to be any respect for the other side. Although you St. Francis, seem to be at least will to what to know what experiences I have had that led me to respect the work of CCHD. Everyone else was bashing CCHD without firsthand experience. There does not seem to be room here in this forum for a real dialogue where people are really challenged to think in new ways. Instead, it seemed to me that everything that is not perfectly conservative is evil, including people.
I finally got to the point, after continually asking in vain for a rational, fact based discourse, where I lost hope and became so discouraged.

 

[ljpgoodwin]

I can’t see how this can be correct, if we are commit a mortal sin?

But it would also be a result of cooperation with grace, too, no?

WRT the CCHD, I do not understand this set-up. First of all, it does not seem that Catholics need to be involved. That seems just plain weird. It used to be that the Church spread through missionaries preaching the Word of the Lord. A lot of times, there would be hospitals, orphanages, schools, etc., set up in mission territories.

And these would be staffed *by Catholics. *By Catholics who were so strong in their faith that they had dedicated their lives to God.

I could see the USCCB setting up something like monastic communities which required shorter commitments of time instead of one’s whole life, but what I don’t understand is this giving of money to groups which aren’t even Catholic! Part of the old way of doing this was that people could see that the people who were helping them were praying and receiving the Sacraments, and this is obviously the most important thing. \

This is all something discussed in The Soul of the Apostolate.

Sin is secondary to our nature. My sinful actions are the result of my disorder loves or to say it another way, I sometimes love or desire the wrong things. Love and Truth and Goodness are always the starting point. Evil is secondary to God’s good creation. This is a radically important point according to St. Augustine and St. Thomas. Our ability to sin is the result of the fall. It is true, we do have a propensity to sin, but that does not mean that we can’t act out of pure motives too. Every act of goodness that I do is the result of grace. That is because God is the creator of all that there is and God can only create good. So when I do something good, it is actually God acting through me and that is grace. Humanity has the ability of achieving perfection according to St. Augustine. All this stuff I have been writing about sin and grace are directly from St. Augustine in “On the Grace of Christ”, one of his early writings.

As far as having to be Catholic to be a part of a CCHD endeavor…CCHD is primarily evangelical and catechetical. It’s not about “Catholics Only Need Apply”. It’s about sharing our faith and world view with as many people as we can. That’s one way that we can increase our blessed ranks.

 

[ljpgoodwin]

I can’t see how this can be correct, if we are commit a mortal sin?

But it would also be a result of cooperation with grace, too, no?

WRT the CCHD, I do not understand this set-up. First of all, it does not seem that Catholics need to be involved. That seems just plain weird. It used to be that the Church spread through missionaries preaching the Word of the Lord. A lot of times, there would be hospitals, orphanages, schools, etc., set up in mission territories.

And these would be staffed *by Catholics. *By Catholics who were so strong in their faith that they had dedicated their lives to God.

I could see the USCCB setting up something like monastic communities which required shorter commitments of time instead of one’s whole life, but what I don’t understand is this giving of money to groups which aren’t even Catholic! Part of the old way of doing this was that people could see that the people who were helping them were praying and receiving the Sacraments, and this is obviously the most important thing. \

This is all something discussed in The Soul of the Apostolate.

The monastic model was a good one. I’m not sure it would work effectively in our sprawling urban areas now however. In Gaudium et Spes, which is the 2nd or 3rd most important document that came out of the Second Vatican Council there is articulated a commitment that the Church should work with the world in the places where there is agreement. The sub title of this document is, in English, The Church in the Modern World. It is not the Church AND the Modern World. There was great discussion on the use of the word “in” instead of “and”. There is a serious of books that recounts the history of the Council that talks about this conversation about “in” and “and. I forget the name of it right now.
All of the people who are on the teams that are visiting the groups that apply for the grants are Catholic. They come from the parishes. There are numerous events throughout the year, sometimes the events are held at the diocese, where our Catholic culture, including prayer, is an important and very visible part of the event. The model is more parochial than monastic.
By the way, what I have been taught is that De Verbum was the most important document of the Second Vatican Council and Lumen Gentium/Gaudium et Spes are tied for second or third place out of the nine constitutions that came out to the Council. When I studied them, I can see why this may be the case.

 

[fultonfish]

You are right, the left has brought all sort of “evil” even to the world. But I would point out it has brought all sorts of good too. I would also point out the right has brought just as much evil and good to the world too. By no means does the right have it all together.

What sorts of “good” has the left brought us?

 

[yayi238]

This is from ljgoodwin—

" I find it interesting that in the earlier posts in this discourse a number of people here were defending Glen Beck and I was defending the Church. I would like to point out that I never said that Fox News should be shut down because of a few bad actors such as Glen Beck, Bill O’reilly and other contributors such as Ann Colter. I realize that Fox News serves a purpose. I do think that Fox News does need to consider looking at its unashamedly blatant systemic racism and inordinate attachment to the Republican Party."

My question is this----Why are you bringing up Fox News in answer to concerns about CCHD?

Does the Catholic church ask for donations to Fox News?

I am concerned over what Catholics have been asked to support with the backing of CCHD—some things which I now learn have been less than Catholic ideals.

 

[yayi238]

ljgoodwin

Why are you bringing up such things as Fox News in relation to concerns about CCHD?

Is the Catholic church asking for donations to Fox News?

 

[Tigg]

For the record, this Catholic Answers blog is by far the most conservative group of people that I have ever encountered. Not that there is anything wrong with being conservative. I happen to be rather conservative in many parts of my life as well. But it seems kinda overwhelmingly very, very right here. There does not seem to be any respect for the other side.

You are correct that most are politically conservative, but when I initially came onto this forum the thing that first struck me was how well these posters (for the most part,) know their faith. By far, they are not a typical cross-section of Catholics and many times I have been challenged. I (who know what the faith teaches quite well) have been educated on these threads by links, debates and articles, and I have been grateful to many for the information.

Everyone else was bashing CCHD without firsthand experience.

Their published list of grantees is fact. The amount of money they have donated to certain pernicious groups is fact. What some of these groups hope to accomplish is fact and has been advertised in their mission statements and blogs. We also find out what they are about through the news media (and please, no more talk of Glenn Beck. I’m not even remotely speaking of him.) That the CHD is funding these groups remains a mystery to us…they have never explained why, but when something goes scandously wrong, as in the case with ACORN, there is an outcry and they then backtrack and tell us they will no longer fund this group or that. We’ve heard this from them more than once you know. We are tired of their empty assurances only to find out that the next year, there is something even more shameful. Now, we are donating to a group that is advocating legalized prostitution? Astonishing!

That you personally have worked with these people really means nothing to us - we can only know them through their actions and the many negative results of those actions.

 

[ljpgoodwin]

ljgoodwin

Why are you bringing up such things as Fox News in relation to concerns about CCHD?

Is the Catholic church asking for donations to Fox News?

It goes back to almost the begining of my defence of CCHD. You would have to read back some to find it.

 

[Stylite]

Sure, I would go for that.

That’s good to hear and I’m glad we agree on some points concerning the CCHD. Do you think some of the groups like the IAF would be able to make such a public statement?

I know there are good people who work for the CCHD. My point all along has not been to attack any individuals involved with the CCHD but to figure out how some of these groups were cleared for funding.

When I look at a group like Young Worker’s United which is blatantly and publicly pro-abortion and then see that it had to clear several stages of approval at both the local and national level, it makes me think that there is something fundamentally flawed with the granting process. Ralph McCloud in a recent CNSnews article detailed the many steps a group has to clear before receiving grants.

Can you see why some of us are perplexed and concerned?

 

[ljpgoodwin]

You are correct that most are politically conservative, but when I initially came onto this forum the thing that first struck me was how well these posters (for the most part,) know their faith. By far, they are not a typical cross-section of Catholics and many times I have been challenged. I (who know what the faith teaches quite well) have been educated on these threads by links, debates and articles, and I have been grateful to many for the information.

Their published list of grantees is fact. The amount of money they have donated to certain pernicious groups is fact. What some of these groups hope to accomplish is fact and has been advertised in their mission statements and blogs. We also find out what they are about through the news media (and please, no more talk of Glenn Beck. I’m not even remotely speaking of him.) That the CHD is funding these groups remains a mystery to us…they have never explained why, but when something goes scandously wrong, as in the case with ACORN, there is an outcry and they then backtrack and tell us they will no longer fund this group or that. We’ve heard this from them more than once you know. We are tired of their empty assurances only to find out that the next year, there is something even more shameful. Now, we are donating to a group that is advocating legalized prostitution? Astonishing!

That you personally have worked with these people really means nothing to us - we can only know them through their actions and the many negative results of those actions.

I have to disagree with you on the point about people knowing their faith here. What I have seen is that people know what the very very right bloggers are saying about Catholicism. No one is using original sources for their arguments. I have asked over and over again to have people support their arguments by using established Catholic sources like Vatican 2 documents or things from the Fathers of the Church and all I get is hyper-right blogosphere drivel. This one of the issues I have been hitting hard at. People need to read the Bible, the Church Fathers, Vatican documents and peer-reviewed journals such as Communio. Communio is a good conservative journal in which JP2 and B18 choose to write in for years. I list Communio because it is conservative and we could at least agree that it is a acceptable source for learning about our Church.

You only know a very few of the groups through their actions. The rest of what people are reporting about the funded groups is blogosphere hearsay.

 

[ljpgoodwin]

What sorts of “good” has the left brought us?

I suspect you might be someone who thinks everything for the left is bad. So there does not seem like there is much I could say.

However, Social Security, The GI Bill, environmental protection, perhaps health care reform (without a public option), suffrage, civil rights, Gaudium et Spes, Deus Caritas Est, John Kennedy, Lyndon Johnston, Roosevelt, Arlo Guthrie, Karl Rahner, Pope Leo XIII, Pope John XXIII, Ludwig van Beethoven, Mother Theresa, Teresa of Ávila, The Declaration of Independence, just to name a few things.

I could also make a list, with equal conviction of great things the conservatives have given us. The sad part is that I could also make a list of bad things both sides have given us.

 

[Stylite]

I have to disagree with you on the point about people knowing their faith here. What I have seen is that people know what the very very right bloggers are saying about Catholicism. No one is using original sources for their arguments. I have asked over and over again to have people support their arguments by using established Catholic sources like Vatican 2 documents or things from the Fathers of the Church and all I get is hyper-right blogosphere drivel. This one of the issues I have been hitting hard at. People need to read the Bible, the Church Fathers, Vatican documents and peer-reviewed journals such as Communio. Communio is a good conservative journal in which JP2 and B18 choose to write in for years. I list Communio because it is conservative and we could at least agree that it is a acceptable source for learning about our Church.

You only know a very few of the groups through their actions. The rest of what people are reporting about the funded groups is blogosphere hearsay.

I primarily use the encyclicals when discussing social teaching. The libertarians and the socialists both have it wrong as far as a true social doctrine. The libertarians don’t understand the true meaning of freedom, and socialists have no clue about subsidiarity as well as warped understanding of solidarity.

As far as “blogosphere hearsay” have you even read the Bellarmine Veritas Ministry’s report? It is fully sourced, and respectable news organizations have verified the facts. I wouldn’t consider the author of that report as being “very very right.” If you heard him on the Drew Mariani show the other day you would have noticed that he would not ascribe any motives to the CCHD when asked.

 

[fultonfish]

I suspect you might be someone who thinks everything for the left is bad. So there does not seem like there is much I could say.

However, Social Security, The GI Bill, environmental protection, perhaps health care reform (without a public option), suffrage, civil rights, Gaudium et Spes, Deus Caritas Est, John Kennedy, Lyndon Johnston, Roosevelt, Arlo Guthrie, Karl Rahner, Pope Leo XIII, Pope John XXIII, Ludwig van Beethoven, Mother Theresa, Teresa of Ávila, The Declaration of Independence, just to name a few things.

:banghead:

:nope: