Social Justice groups such as JustFaith, CCHD, IAF

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Here is some encouraging news: (I apologize if this has already been posted.)

A cry is coming from Catholics across the country to defund the Catholic Campaign for Human Development, the social justice arm for the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops. The annual campaign for funding by Catholic parishes, held each November, may be in serious jeopardy based on new revelations concerning the group’s actions.

Deal Hudson, from InsideCatholic.com, wrote on his site, “I think BVM should go further and ask for the elimination of the Catholic Campaign for Human Development. No amount of house-cleaning is going to make this arm of the USCCB worthy of our donations.”

catholic.org/politics/story.php?id=34485
 
Po18guy said “I would rather err on the side of getting the poor into Heaven than making them temporally comfortable. If we can do both, great! But, there’s the rub…” I say that making the world a better place to live is one of the most effective way to helping people get to heaven.
Isn’t filling them with Gospel hope the greater part of that?
That is because when we participate in building the Kingdom of God here on Earth, we are participating in what Jesus asked us to do. And in doing so, we are also working toward our own salvation. Ignoring the cry of the poor is one sure way of purchasing a one way ticket to a less desirable place.
We simply disagree on how best to accomplish the building of the Kingdom. Prudence.

The removal of suffering, without the greater portion of providing hope, will not likely increase their chance of entering Heaven. Only by preaching the Truth, which is our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, will that occur. Temporal improvements are efficacious only when inextricably linked to the preaching of the truth. The hearing of the truth will bring repentance, and repentance will bring spiritual change.

Where I see the error (in general) of the 1960s social justice movement is in the disproportionate focus on temporal comfort, the reduction or abandonment of efforts toward improving the spirit, and the inculcation of the desire for political power for the purposes of forced wealth redistribution. And, a certain socialist ideology was designed into some of the programs from their inception. This can have the effect of engendering greed and envy, which always produces bad spiritual fruit.

If I take exception to your thinking, it is that you appear relatively unconcerned about demanding the immediate removal of all evil influence and actions from CCHD programs. It is more than just “unfortunate”. It is evil - God sees that as black and white and teaches us to do the same. He has blessed us with the prudence and fortitude to make the hard judgments. 99% of CCHD programs might be wonderful. It’s that 1% that is diverted to the death of babies that dooms the entire program. What is worse is that you and I now know about it. We now bear a higher degree of culpability for inaction.

CCHD, being a human organization, is subject to human failing. As with the Sacrament of Reconciliation, CCHD must also occasionally submit to a purifying process. Justice demands that it do so!

You are not a policeman. Allow the police to do their work in cleansing the CCHD, then we can all get back to the task at hand - leading others, by various means, to the narrow path.
 
Here is some encouraging news: (I apologize if this has already been posted.)

A cry is coming from Catholics across the country to defund the Catholic Campaign for Human Development, the social justice arm for the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops. The annual campaign for funding by Catholic parishes, held each November, may be in serious jeopardy based on new revelations concerning the group’s actions.

Deal Hudson, from InsideCatholic.com, wrote on his site, “I think BVM should go further and ask for the elimination of the Catholic Campaign for Human Development. No amount of house-cleaning is going to make this arm of the USCCB worthy of our donations.”

catholic.org/politics/story.php?id=34485
Lest our brotherly adversary fall into despair, we need to realize that the needs of the poor will continue to be met - but by more worthy means. See also the following. I note that neither NPR nor PBS seems to have a web link to this story, so I do not know if government news is reporting this:
IRS Severs Ties With ACORN Over Scandal
Wednesday, September 23, 2009 4:10 PM
Article Font Size
WASHINGTON – The IRS says it is severing ties with ACORN, the community activist group involved in a scandal after employees were caught on video giving advice to a couple posing as a prostitute and pimp.
The Internal Revenue Service said Wednesday it would no longer include ACORN in its volunteer tax assistance program. The program offered free tax advice to about 3 million low- and moderate-income tax filers this spring.
The IRS said ACORN, which is short for the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, provided help on about 25,000 returns.
The House and Senate voted earlier this month to sever federal funding to ACORN. And the Census Bureau severed its ties with the group for the 2010 national head-count.
 
Here is some encouraging news: (I apologize if this has already been posted.)

A cry is coming from Catholics across the country to defund the Catholic Campaign for Human Development, the social justice arm for the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops. The annual campaign for funding by Catholic parishes, held each November, may be in serious jeopardy based on new revelations concerning the group’s actions.

Deal Hudson, from InsideCatholic.com, wrote on his site, “I think BVM should go further and ask for the elimination of the Catholic Campaign for Human Development. No amount of house-cleaning is going to make this arm of the USCCB worthy of our donations.”

catholic.org/politics/story.php?id=34485
So, with what should we replace CCHD? Maybe Mr. Hudson should ask this question first to Our Lady.
 
Lest our brotherly adversary fall into despair, we need to realize that the needs of the poor will continue to be met - but by more worthy means. See also the following. I note that neither NPR nor PBS seems to have a web link to this story, so I do not know if government news is reporting this:
[NPR Search : NPR(name removed by moderator)ut=ACORN](http://www.npr.org/search/index.php?search(name removed by moderator)ut=ACORN)

Here you go. A full page of NPR links to stories about ACORN

I’m not sure that the needs of the poor are being met as well as they need to be in our world today.
 
I think your observation that “some p&j’s what to change the system” is a good one. The reason is that if we change the parts of the system that contributes to the perpetuation of poverty, we help the individuals and the community as a whole. Some people erroneously believe that poverty is only about the individual. They think that poor people are poor only as a result of their own actions. There is truth to the idea that the kid who grows up with a lazy and violent mother, will more than likely act the same way as an adult, thus perpetuating a cause of poverty. There is also truth in the idea that the only way out of poverty is for poor people to take responsibility for their actions. Again, the truth is in the tension.
I do not believe in focusing on changing the system because I think that the system should change after the minds and hearts are changed. Changing the system is a merely temporal act.

You mentioned the results of lack of grace following upon scrupulousity, and that this occurred because scrupulousity caused people to act out of fear rather than out of Christ’s freedom. *And this is precisely what I see as the problem with system-changing. *Sure, the outer manifestations change, but only out of fear, not out of a change of heart towards Christ.

And to me this is even worse than scrupulousity because Catholics are deliberately working along this path, which will do more to drive certain people away than to bring them closer to God. We are not to be concerned only with the spiritual and temporal states of the poor, but of *all *people, including the wicked rich.
This is why I like CCHD so much. It is not a hand out of cash. What CCHD does is take people who are living in poverty and teaches them how to change the systems that are keeping them poor. The money does not go to buy food or clothing. It goes to organizations that are dedicated to helping poor people get the skills they need to change their circumstances in a manner that can lift them out of poverty. It’s that old adage, “you can give a man a fish and he will eat for one day or you can teach him to fish and he will eat everyday”.
Some of what I saw on the CCHD site went towards what you said about helping people obtain skills which will help lift them out of poverty. This is good. Just that action alone will help improve the community.

What I question is the “changing the systems which are keeping them poor.” Ick. What I see, and I have lived in and near several different kinds of poor areas, is that it is *circumstances *which “keep” people poor or else personal problems.
So you asked me for a brief description of what was my involvement with CCHD. I worked in a diocese where one of my jobs was CCHD diocesan director of CCHD. I came to see that one of the primary functions of CCHD was catechetical in nature. What I would do is get to know people in the community (a result of some of my other duties in the diocese) and help people organize themselves so that their children could go to good schools and safely live and grow in their communities. The focus of CCHD groups is developing healthy communities (read communities built on Catholic ideals) with the family as the benefactor of a safe and healthy community. The reason is that when families have safe and healthy communities to live in, there is fertile ground for the reception of the Gospel. It is much harder to catechize people when they are not living in a safe and healthy community.

This is a problem for me as well. Once people see that merely temporal activities will change their state, why would they *then *
become more receptive to the Scripture? It seems to me that what they will learn is that the don’t need God to improve their lot, just a few temporal measures and some money.
… It was in the relationships with all of the people that I have just described where I met people whose faith and dedication working to bring the Good News to a world hungry for it, catechized me and inspirited me. I’m still being catechized as I hope all of us are.
It sounds like you had interesting work which you enjoyed 🙂

What I am interested in finding out is, what was the end result? Say you worked with a community with no Catholics, and through the organization improvements were made which benefited all or a considerable number of them.

Were there people who then converted? Was there a follow-through of Catholics who discussed the Faith with them?
… they both have at their core the fundamental conviction that we are all made in the image and likeness of our Creator and therefore we are essentially good.
But this is not Catholic! We are good, but harmed by original sin or concupiscence. This must be taken into account, and I see that this is another area of difference.
 
I do not believe in focusing on changing the system because I think that the system should change after the minds and hearts are changed. Changing the system is a merely temporal act.

You mentioned the results of lack of grace following upon scrupulousity, and that this occurred because scrupulousity caused people to act out of fear rather than out of Christ’s freedom. *And this is precisely what I see as the problem with system-changing. *Sure, the outer manifestations change, but only out of fear, not out of a change of heart towards Christ.

And to me this is even worse than scrupulousity because Catholics are deliberately working along this path, which will do more to drive certain people away than to bring them closer to God. We are not to be concerned only with the spiritual and temporal states of the poor, but of *all *people, including the wicked rich.

Some of what I saw on the CCHD site went towards what you said about helping people obtain skills which will help lift them out of poverty. This is good. Just that action alone will help improve the community.

What I question is the “changing the systems which are keeping them poor.” Ick. What I see, and I have lived in and near several different kinds of poor areas, is that it is *circumstances *which “keep” people poor or else personal problems.
So you asked me for a brief description of what was my involvement with CCHD. I worked in a diocese where one of my jobs was CCHD diocesan director of CCHD. I came to see that one of the primary functions of CCHD was catechetical in nature. What I would do is get to know people in the community (a result of some of my other duties in the diocese) and help people organize themselves so that their children could go to good schools and safely live and grow in their communities. The focus of CCHD groups is developing healthy communities (read communities built on Catholic ideals) with the family as the benefactor of a safe and healthy community. The reason is that when families have safe and healthy communities to live in, there is fertile ground for the reception of the Gospel. It is much harder to catechize people when they are not living in a safe and healthy community.

This is a problem for me as well. Once people see that merely temporal activities will change their state, why would they *then *
become more receptive to the Scripture? It seems to me that what they will learn is that the don’t need God to improve their lot, just a few temporal measures and some money.

It sounds like you had interesting work which you enjoyed 🙂

What I am interested in finding out is, what was the end result? Say you worked with a community with no Catholics, and through the organization improvements were made which benefited all or a considerable number of them.

Were there people who then converted? Was there a follow-through of Catholics who discussed the Faith with them?

But this is not Catholic! We are good, but harmed by original sin or concupiscence. This must be taken into account, and I see that this is another area of difference.

As far as how many people were converted to Catholicism…I would say that the parishes with which I worked closely, around CCHD issues, tended to have some of the larger RCIA programs too. Not to mention that people who had been Catholic all their lives, came to love the Church more deeply.

When people are involved in their community, inside and outside of the parish, the parish often attracts people because people are going out into the community as representatives of their parish. I don’t mean representative in the same way that the pastor is the representative. I mean that people meet each other and they will mention that they belong to such and such a parish…why don’t you come and join us and thus the larger RCIA groups.

Temporal acts have direct consequences in our eternal lives. You can’t say “merely temporal acts”, because temporal acts have a religious and moral component to them. This is why I mentioned the prayer at the Preparation of the Gifts during the Mass and how it draws our attention to “the work of human hands”.

I did mention fear and freedom. It’s human freedom I am referring to. That human freedom, which is a gift of God to us, is a precondition to the full reception of grace in our lives.
My point is that the change that happens in people’s hearts and minds is a change that orients the person toward living how Jesus calls us to live. They don’t do this because they fear hell; they do it because they have had an opportunity to experience the salvific love of Jesus Christ in their brothers and sisters.

I agree with you, we are called to be in relationship with all people, rich, poor…just as you have said. Some people are called to work with the poor and some with the rich and so on. Some people work with the poor for a while and then they take what they have learned about God as the result of their Christian service to the poor, and then they start working with the aged or RCIA in the parish or communion ministers and so on. There are many ways to answer God’s call. It’s about how we answer. Are we looking for deeper meaning in our apostolic work? My experience is that whenever I take on a new kind of ministry or apostolic work, I come to have a better understanding and new insights of the Scriptures and the Sacraments. They take on a richer and fuller meaning. The more I understand the Scriptures and the Sacraments the more I can share the passion I have for them with non-Christians and thus make more converts.

I think I am going to have to disagree with you on your assertion that “But this is not Catholic! We are good, but harmed by original sin or concupiscence. This must be taken into account, and I see that this is another area of difference.”

It seems that every church document I have read and studied makes it very clear that we are first and foremost good and that the quintessential human struggle is to orient our love (which has been disordered by the fall) toward God instead of sin. But we start, and always remain good in the eyes of God. Every action or thought I have that draws me closer to God is the result of grace. That is to say that my ability to do and think good things finds its beginning in God and every impulse toward sin comes from my blindness of the goodness in which God has created me. That is not to say that evil is only the absence of good. Rather it is to say that evil cannot exist apart from the good that God has created. An analogy is that cancer cannot exist if there is no body for it to exist in. Cancer does exist, that is for sure, but it needs the good creation of God for it to exist in and corrupt. Evil exist, but good exists first and Gods good creation is the air that we breathe and what we ontologically or metaphysically are.
 
I am writing in big letters because St. Francis asked me to. She noted that us older folks don’t see so well anymore:thumbsup:
 
So, with what should we replace CCHD? Maybe Mr. Hudson should ask this question first to Our Lady.
Or, should we just blindly keep funneling cash to abortion? I doubt that pleases our Lady - or worse: He Who sits in judgment. Please consider that you might be too heavily invested in just one of a myriad of programs out here.
 
I do not believe in focusing on changing the system because I think that the system should change after the minds and hearts are changed. Changing the system is a merely temporal act.
I maintain that we should address the spiritual first. Everything else follows from that. Good intentions are not an acceptable substitute for results.
Some of what I saw on the CCHD site went towards what you said about helping people obtain skills which will help lift them out of poverty. This is good. Just that action alone will help improve the community.
Absolutely! But, those programs and parts of programs that are not achieving the goal should be dealt with. But we don’t want to cut programs, because those working in the program will be jobless. Where does it stop? Once it becomes an entrenched bureaucracy, it is difficult to control. Thus, the ACORN debacle.
What I question is the “changing the systems which are keeping them poor.” Ick. What I see, and I have lived in and near several different kinds of poor areas, is that it is *circumstances *which “keep” people poor or else personal problems.
Bingo! When you blame the “system”, you create an entire class of victims. Victims then have rights and it proceeds from there. Remember, some of the SocJus programs were birthed by 1960s counter-culture folks, who hated capitalism. These are the ones who still think Cuba is a panacea (but choose to live in a Manhatten condo).
This is a problem for me as well. Once people see that merely temporal activities will change their state, why would they *then *become more receptive to the Scripture? It seems to me that what they will learn is that the don’t need God to improve their lot, just a few temporal measures and some money.
Your concise evaluation of this complex issue just happens to mirror reality. 👍
What I am interested in finding out is, what was the end result? Say you worked with a community with no Catholics, and through the organization improvements were made which benefited all or a considerable number of them.
You just might find that resources were made available for evangelization, but either were not part of the main thrust of the program, or were not stressed. And that is what is objectionable.
Were there people who then converted? Was there a follow-through of Catholics who discussed the Faith with them?
The multi-million dollar question.
But this is not Catholic! We are good, but harmed by original sin or concupiscence. This must be taken into account, and I see that this is another area of difference.
This is a stale leftover of 1969’s “I’m OK, You’re OK” bestseller nonsense. Coincidentally, CCHD also appeared the same year. If we are basically good, it follows that we need neither a Savior, nor even repentance.
 
I think it’s important to be able to make the distinction between having ideological difference and concerns about how something is administered.

It is not helpful to try to pin all sorts of accusations of impropriety and say, “CCHD is or was, in its day, a good thing. Now they have lost their ability to do good work because they are corrupt or out of step with our times and it should just be alowed to dye. In really I think for many in this forum the problem is ideology. I suspect a lot of the dislike of CCHD here is because some people might find it too left leaning. Be honest; just say you don’t like anything that the left has to offer. Then we can get down to a real discussion and I suspect some in this forum would like to say that all things that the left has to offer is evil or springs out of misguided emotionalism.
 
There are so many people into liberation theology that I learned from Richard Rhoer(sp?)…many years ago. These groups in our churches change their names as folks catch on to the real deal. A lady told me the latest is “engaging spirituality”…not sure that is true and hope not …so will check it out and take notes. Keep praying for our Catholic Church.
 
Isn’t filling them with Gospel hope the greater part of that? We simply disagree on how best to accomplish the building of the Kingdom. Prudence.

The removal of suffering, without the greater portion of providing hope, will not likely increase their chance of entering Heaven. Only by preaching the Truth, which is our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, will that occur. Temporal improvements are efficacious only when inextricably linked to the preaching of the truth. The hearing of the truth will bring repentance, and repentance will bring spiritual change.

Where I see the error (in general) of the 1960s social justice movement is in the disproportionate focus on temporal comfort, the reduction or abandonment of efforts toward improving the spirit, and the inculcation of the desire for political power for the purposes of forced wealth redistribution. And, a certain socialist ideology was designed into some of the programs from their inception. This can have the effect of engendering greed and envy, which always produces bad spiritual fruit.

If I take exception to your thinking, it is that you appear relatively unconcerned about demanding the immediate removal of all evil influence and actions from CCHD programs. It is more than just “unfortunate”. It is evil - God sees that as black and white and teaches us to do the same. He has blessed us with the prudence and fortitude to make the hard judgments. 99% of CCHD programs might be wonderful. It’s that 1% that is diverted to the death of babies that dooms the entire program. What is worse is that you and I now know about it. We now bear a higher degree of culpability for inaction.

CCHD, being a human organization, is subject to human failing. As with the Sacrament of Reconciliation, CCHD must also occasionally submit to a purifying process. Justice demands that it do so!

You are not a policeman. Allow the police to do their work in cleansing the CCHD, then we can all get back to the task at hand - leading others, by various means, to the narrow path.
This is the point that Augustine, Aquinas and on down the line to our theologians today, including JP2 and B16 want to make…Christian love of your brothers and sisters by helping them to relieve unnecessary suffering IS giving filling them with Gospel hope. My helping my brothers and sisters is not about getting THEM into heaven…it’s about getting ME into heaven.

Really, read Deus Caritas Est. God is Love! I help my brothers and sisters because of agape or Christian love. This kind of love is not some 1968 Haight and Ashburry hippy thing. It’s about love as sacrifice. Agape or Christian love is an action that reaches out to the other in real live action oriented toward building the Kingdom of God here on Earth. This is not some fluffy touchy touchy feely feely bunk. This love in action is one of the foundational principles of Catholicism that comes right out of Scripture…the Beatitudes any of the profits and even the OT Law of Moses.

I really don’t know why some people fight this idea of love in action. I really mean that. What is it about loving your brothers and sister in the way Jesus told us to do that you find so objectionable? I am really astounded at the resistance here. It truly saddens me that some Christians resist this foundational principle. I know I am going to get jumped all over for even asking this question. People are going to say things like. “All I have to do is love my family first” or the poor need to get themselves out of poverty because it is their own fault that they are poor. I work hard for all that I have, why should I help people who don’t want to help themselves first?” Or “it wouldn’t be Christian to do something for them that they need to do for themselves”…”CCHD isn’t love…it’s enabling”.

Love is the answer! Deus Caritas Est. The Trinity is a loving relationship between the Father, the Son and The Holy Spirt…the Incarnation is about God wanting to be with us and offering his only Son on the Cross out of love and sacrifice. CCHD provides opportunities for people rich and poor to share in that love. It changes people…it really does and through that exchange of love, people’s souls are saved!

As tradition tells us, St. Francis said, “Preach always, and if you need to, use words”. The other side of that story is that Francis fell in love with a leper. Franciscans don’t serve the poor as they do, because they think they are saving the souls of the poor folks they serve…they do it because they want to participate in Christian love and in the process, hopefully save themselves.

Faith and works, through grace purifies my soul. Then I have something beautiful to offer the Lord at judgment day.
 
I am writing in big letters because St. Francis asked me to. She noted that us older folks don’t see so well anymore:thumbsup:
No, I actuallly asked you to double space your paragraphs and make your paragraphs shorter. it’s not the size but the density which is tricky, at least for me.😉
 
Isn’t filling them with Gospel hope the greater part of that? We simply disagree on how best to accomplish the building of the Kingdom. Prudence.

The removal of suffering, without the greater portion of providing hope, will not likely increase their chance of entering Heaven. Only by preaching the Truth, which is our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, will that occur. Temporal improvements are efficacious only when inextricably linked to the preaching of the truth. The hearing of the truth will bring repentance, and repentance will bring spiritual change.

Where I see the error (in general) of the 1960s social justice movement is in the disproportionate focus on temporal comfort, the reduction or abandonment of efforts toward improving the spirit, and the inculcation of the desire for political power for the purposes of forced wealth redistribution. And, a certain socialist ideology was designed into some of the programs from their inception. This can have the effect of engendering greed and envy, which always produces bad spiritual fruit.

If I take exception to your thinking, it is that you appear relatively unconcerned about demanding the immediate removal of all evil influence and actions from CCHD programs. It is more than just “unfortunate”. It is evil - God sees that as black and white and teaches us to do the same. He has blessed us with the prudence and fortitude to make the hard judgments. 99% of CCHD programs might be wonderful. It’s that 1% that is diverted to the death of babies that dooms the entire program. What is worse is that you and I now know about it. We now bear a higher degree of culpability for inaction.
CCHD, being a human organization, is subject to human failing. As with the Sacrament of Reconciliation, CCHD must also occasionally submit to a purifying process. Justice demands that it do so!

You are not a policeman. Allow the police to do their work in cleansing the CCHD, then we can all get back to the task at hand - leading others, by various means, to the narrow path.
CCHD is not responsible for any abortions. Nor is CCHD culpable for any intentional wrong doing ether because of mal intent or gross misconduct. I suspect you might be, what is called in canon law, a hostile witness. You seem to have a malicious disposition toward CCHD. If true that would render your evaluation of CCHD invalid.

I am willing to say that some of the people in CCHD have made mistakes. But I am unwilling to make the malicious accusations you seem willing to make. You have called CCHD evil. I know the institution and these people, many of them from around the country, and their motive for doing the work they do is pure and holy. They are however human, just like you and me. But to accuse them of participating in abortion is something less than charitable.

You try to soften it by saying that they are somehow ill-informed. I personally know these people and know this is not the case. I have firsthand experience and you keep relying on heresy. I have the actions and material support from the USCCB and the Vatican to back me up. I think you say in an earlier post that the USCCB and the Vatican are not credible witness to the work of CCHD. That is a VERY stronge statement.

You accuse me of narrow minded thing thinking as you say: “…99% of CCHD programs might be wonderful. It’s that 1% that is diverted to the death of babies that dooms the entire program.” Again I will say that the fact that CCHD has stopped funding ACORN is a testimony to the fact that CCHD is fiscally responsible with the resources entrusted to it. Perhaps CCHD became aware of the improprieties of ACORN at the same time as you. I suspect that CCHD might have actually been one of the whistle blowers that brought the problems with ACORN to light.

If you say that CCHD knew that ACORN was acting wrongly and didn’t do anything about it, you are accusing CCHD of a serious malicious and sinful action. I don’t think you are saying that…are you? I really am being sincere with this question.
 
I think it’s important to be able to make the distinction between having ideological difference and concerns about how something is administered.

It is not helpful to try to pin all sorts of accusations of impropriety and say, “CCHD is or was, in its day, a good thing. Now they have lost their ability to do good work because they are corrupt or out of step with our times and it should just be alowed to dye. In really I think for many in this forum the problem is ideology. I suspect a lot of the dislike of CCHD here is because some people might find it too left leaning. Be honest; just say you don’t like anything that the left has to offer. Then we can get down to a real discussion and I suspect some in this forum would like to say that all things that the left has to offer is evil or springs out of misguided emotionalism.
Slow the pendulum down! We are not asking for Eric Holder to investigate each and every individual in CCHD. We have been telling you, with popularly known evidence, that CCHD had corruption in it that lead to inadvertent support for objective evil. Is this incomprehensible somehow?

It’s almost like we are on two different planets. We know that you admire both the USCCB and the CCHD almost without reservation. But, you have glossed over the shocking revelations of impropriety. Such attitudes are what lead to the problem in the first place, and will possibly lead to CCHD’s demise. If those in the program do not cry out for justice within their own organization, what does that say? It is like the peaceful Muslims who remain dead silent about Islamic fundamentalist terror. It is tacit approval.

First, I am not as 100%, ‘bet your life on it’ sure that CCHD was ever a good idea as it was designed and implemented. It clearly lacked either the mechanism for internal oversight, or the prudent application of that mechanism.

Don’t freak out and claim that I am condemning you or any one of the good-hearted members of the organization. But, something failed. Poverty has increased and faithful Church attendance has declined after 40 years of CCHD efforts. Clearly, it is not intended for, or is improperly addressing evangelization. I tend to think that your effoerts would be better spent in a more timeless and less temporal endeavor. But, that’s just me.
 
CCHD is not responsible for any abortions. Nor is CCHD culpable for any intentional wrong doing ether because of mal intent or gross misconduct. I suspect you might be, what is called in canon law, a hostile witness. You seem to have a malicious disposition toward CCHD. If true that would render your evaluation of CCHD invalid.

I am willing to say that some of the people in CCHD have made mistakes. But I am unwilling to make the malicious accusations you seem willing to make. You have called CCHD evil. I know the institution and these people, many of them from around the country, and their motive for doing the work they do is pure and holy. They are however human, just like you and me. But to accuse them of participating in abortion is something less than charitable.

You try to soften it by saying that they are somehow ill-informed. I personally know these people and know this is not the case. I have firsthand experience and you keep relying on heresy. I have the actions and material support from the USCCB and the Vatican to back me up. I think you say in an earlier post that the USCCB and the Vatican are not credible witness to the work of CCHD. That is a VERY stronge statement.

You accuse me of narrow minded thing thinking as you say: “…99% of CCHD programs might be wonderful. It’s that 1% that is diverted to the death of babies that dooms the entire program.” Again I will say that the fact that CCHD has stopped funding ACORN is a testimony to the fact that CCHD is fiscally responsible with the resources entrusted to it. Perhaps CCHD became aware of the improprieties of ACORN at the same time as you. I suspect that CCHD might have actually been one of the whistle blowers that brought the problems with ACORN to light.

If you say that CCHD knew that ACORN was acting wrongly and didn’t do anything about it, you are accusing CCHD of a serious malicious and sinful action. I don’t think you are saying that…are you? I really am being sincere with this question.
I was going to respond point by point, but I cannot reason with hysteria. I can see why other members have bailed.
 
Slow the pendulum down! We are not asking for Eric Holder to investigate each and every individual in CCHD. We have been telling you, with popularly known evidence, that CCHD had corruption in it that lead to inadvertent support for objective evil. Is this incomprehensible somehow?

It’s almost like we are on two different planets. We know that you admire both the USCCB and the CCHD almost without reservation. But, you have glossed over the shocking revelations of impropriety. Such attitudes are what lead to the problem in the first place, and will possibly lead to CCHD’s demise. If those in the program do not cry out for justice within their own organization, what does that say? It is like the peaceful Muslims who remain dead silent about Islamic fundamentalist terror. It is tacit approval.

First, I am not as 100%, ‘bet your life on it’ sure that CCHD was ever a good idea as it was designed and implemented. It clearly lacked either the mechanism for internal oversight, or the prudent application of that mechanism.

Don’t freak out and claim that I am condemning you or any one of the good-hearted members of the organization. But, something failed. Poverty has increased and faithful Church attendance has declined after 40 years of CCHD efforts. Clearly, it is not intended for, or is improperly addressing evangelization. I tend to think that your effoerts would be better spent in a more timeless and less temporal endeavor. But, that’s just me.
Apparently you have misread my tone. I have tried to present my arguments as respectfully as possible. I guess I did not convey the tone of my arguments as well as I would have liked. Be assured that I am not hysterical. If anything, what I am is mystified. As I said in a recent post; I sincerely don’t understand why, you in particular po18guy seem to be so opposed to CCHD or any organized program that fights poverty from a Christian perspective. There is a difference between hysteria and being on fire for Christ. The difference is that hysteria is not rooted in reason. Passion is a reasonable response to love and in my case, it’s the love of Christ.

I have acknowledged a number of times that, yes, in fact, CCHD has made some mistakes as does every institution and person. It seems to me that I am suggesting the non-hysterical way to proceed. That is for CCHD to be always vigilant, as they are and a case in point is, as I have suggested the fact that ACORN is not longer receiving CCHD funding.

A few years ago a bishop was driving drunk. He hit a pedestrian and killed him. We did not do away with the episcopate because of the sinful and objectively evil acts of one bishop. We put him in jail. We don’t make the law to address the exceptions in the church. We make the law to address the general situations and deal with the exceptions as needed.

CCHD does not claim to be the panacea for poverty and I would be more inclined to lay the blame of the increase of poverty in this country at the feet of our last presidential administration. I’m sure you will disagree with me on that and that’s OK. I just wanted to point out that it is a much more complicated problem than you seem prepared to acknowledge.

You are right, I do admire the work of CCHD, the USCCB and the Vatican. But you seem unwilling to acknowledge that the Vatican also supports CCHD.
You have finally hinted at the real cause of your dislike for CCHD, which is ideological. That makes you a hostile witness and unable to offer an objective evaluation of the program.

CCHD, which is fundamentally a spiritually based program, is now and always has been an institution that is able to be corrected. Its national offices are in the USCCB building in Washington D.C. and accountable to the USCCB and the Vatican.
Let’s make something clear here. ACORN and some other organizations are the bad actors here. That is for sure, not CCHD. We should be taking action against ACORN to clean up its act, not closing down CCHD.

As far as you condemning me or anyone, I am well aware that you don’t have the faculty to condemn anything. However you have used highly condemning language against me on a number of occasions in this discourse.

I find it interesting that in the earlier posts in this discourse a number of people here were defending Glen Beck and I was defending the Church. I would like to point out that I never said that Fox News should be shut down because of a few bad actors such as Glen Beck, Bill O’reilly and other contributors such as Ann Colter. I realize that Fox News serves a purpose. I do think that Fox News does need to consider looking at its unashamedly blatant systemic racism and inordinate attachment to the Republican Party.

As for your statement “We are not asking for Eric Holder to investigate each and every individual in CCHD”; true you are not asking for an investigation. Instead you want to close down CCHD without an investigation. I would be very happy to have an investigation so that we could get to the real fact of how good CCHD, the USCCB and the Vatican are. Of course, they all have some problems. I would like to get the facts from an objective view. Not all of this heresy from hostile witnesses you have been providing. And you do need to deal with the fact that the Vatican does support CCHD. Did it ever occur to you that the USCCB and the Vatican are not saying anything about CCHD because they support the good work of CCHD? It’s not a matter of tacit participation in abortion. It’s a matter of the opposition to CCHD not having credible arguments against it.

The cry for justice should mimic the cry for justice that we see in any of the profits in Sacred Scripture.
 
Fox News is great and Beck was wonderful last night! Tonight should be really good…alot of concerned mom’s will be on. He is going to announce a day for prayer and fasting for all Americans…and we sure do need that.
 
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