Social Justice to the exlcusion of doctrine

[James_2_24]

As others have commented, “Social Justice to the exclusion of doctrine” is an oxymoron. Its like saying Love of God to the exclusion of doctrine or Faith to the exclusion of doctrine. Social Justice is doctrine.

I, too, am attracted to those parishes. Certainly I don’t care if a parish screws up the liturgy, and I don’t think that comes even close to Social Justice in importance. The Scribes and Pharisees were very good at enforcing their form of worship, but they did not care for the poor. Should we do the same?

You see, this is exactly the problem… people do not care about God as much as they care about pleasing their fellow man. To say you don’t care if a parish screws up the liturgy is to take the ultimate Sacrament – the Eucharist – instituted by God himself VERY VERY lightly. If we cannot love and respect God we cannot properly love and respect neighbor.

To me, such people might as well be aheist and go about as social workers.

 

[James_2_24]

And if you want hellfire and brimstone you can go to a Baptist church.

I prefer seeing Jesus in the eyes of the poor and persicuted to hearing about Old Testiment , angry God.

Kim

And if you want to help people to the exclusion of God be a secular, atheistic social worker…

It is not the Baptist Church that talks about hellfire and brimstone – it is God – just pick up a Bible, and read the New Testament, mind you. You will hear a lot about hell in the Catholic Church as well – just read the Saints… or go to an orthodox Catholic parish. Watch Father Corapi on EWTN…

 

[aimee]

I have noticed in a lot of “liberal” circles… the Church is viewed primarily as a vehicle of social justice to the exclusion of doctrine.

For example, I know of people who are attracted to particular parishes because the people at the parish are: 1) kind and inclusive 2) do a lot to help the poor 3) reach out to the down trodden

However, if this same parish totally screws up the liturgy, attacks the Pope for a particular statement he’s made, and doesn’t believe a particular Catholic doctrines – its okay because the point to them after all is that they are “good people” helping others. Doctrine is secondary and not so important.

I’ve noticed this attitude to be quite rampant in America. My question is there a name for this kind of thing? Are there articles written about it? Can someone point me in the right direction?

Pax Christi…a dissenting organization

 

[Trader]

Thank you for the discussion and the charitable posts. I agree with you.

God Bless
Scylla

I am also pleased that although you did not understand the meaning of Cardinal Ratzinger’s footnote at first, you did not(as far as I know), start any riots or attempt to murder any proponents of that postion.

The First World War started over about the same level of misunderstanding. Maybe human beings are capable of progress.

 

[marci]

I’ve noticed this attitude to be quite rampant in America. My question is there a name for this kind of thing? Are there articles written about it? Can someone point me in the right direction?

It’s called Liberation Theology. In 1984, then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, was head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. He authored “the Instruction on certain aspects of the Theology of Liberation”.

It this work the dangers of Liberation Theology are illuminated. It comments how those who offer help to the poor (for example) will often times say “give them bread today, we can tell them about Jesus tomarrow”. Although very well intentioned, we must see how this attitude is dangerous.

We know that “man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from God.” To fulfill the physical needs while neglecting the spiritual needs of a person is to not truely love thy neighbor in the sense that God intended. One should care, above all, for the soul of a person. Though we may feed the body, without the nurishment of the soul, we have only prolonged the temporal state without any reguard to the eternal.

This is the danger that exists today. We want more to be pleasing in the eyes of humanity rather than in the eyes of God.
My mother used to tell us growing up that this life is nothing. The suffering we do here on earth should be offered up in sacrifice. She used to say that better to go through life crippled and in great pain, then with the blackness of sin on your soul.

I think that we have lost this way of thinking today. Our time here is a blink of an eye, we should all think more on eternity.

 

[SoCalRC]

I am also pleased that although you did not understand the meaning of Cardinal Ratzinger’s footnote at first, you did not(as far as I know), start any riots or attempt to murder any proponents of that postion.

The First World War started over about the same level of misunderstanding. Maybe human beings are capable of progress.

FWIW, I have been struggling with trying to reconcile some of the Pope’s theological writings myself. For example, when I read then Cardinal Ratzingers writings on the Theology of Liberation I get confused when I read his current writings on the Dictatorship of Relativism.

In the synoptic Gospels, when Jesus was asked about salvation and damnation, he always expressly spoke of social justice for the poor. No concept of deserving poor was introduced. In fact, in Matthew 25, the sheep and goats were both surprised that their actions were even considered part of their salvation/damnation. Benedict makes a point of this in discussing that the Prodigal Son should be the “Parable of Two Brothers” with emphasis on the perils of passing moral judgements on others.

I am struggling with reconciling the two, which, on the surface, appear to somewhat contradict one another.

 

[Winnie_Loke]

Social justice is the fruit of love and the fruit of love is faith. Then, how can you separate faith from Church doctrine ?

 

[Trader]

FWIW, I have been struggling with trying to reconcile some of the Pope’s theological writings myself. For example, when I read then Cardinal Ratzingers writings on the Theology of Liberation I get confused when I read his current writings on the Dictatorship of Relativism.

In the synoptic Gospels, when Jesus was asked about salvation and damnation, he always expressly spoke of social justice for the poor. No concept of deserving poor was introduced. In fact, in Matthew 25, the sheep and goats were both surprised that their actions were even considered part of their salvation/damnation. Benedict makes a point of this in discussing that the Prodigal Son should be the “Parable of Two Brothers” with emphasis on the perils of passing moral judgements on others.

I am struggling with reconciling the two, which, on the surface, appear to somewhat contradict one another.

There is no way I can claim to esplain Pope Benedict’s thoughts better than he can. The specific quote I used was, I think a little more than the technical difference between dogma and social teaching. Dogma does not and cannot change; social teaching does change across time and culture. If this was as simple as some want to make it we would not have four gospels–one written by Jesus himself while on earth would have been more clear.

The fact is the apostles were given the power both to bind and to loose, to forgive and retain sins.

We are to respect both private property and the public good.

Truth comes from both natural and supernatural sources, although both ultimately come from the same source and are never in conflict. They seem to be only because our understanding is imperfect.

Have you noticed that people who accuse others of being judgemenal are actually very judmental of those who disagree with their opinions?

I would give you all the answers if I could. Instead, I just gave you another thousand years of questions.

 

[Ender]

Certainly I don’t care if a parish screws up the liturgy, and I don’t think that comes even close to Social Justice in importance.

There is a lengthy article at InsideCatholic regarding the “Return of the Old Latin Mass” that explains much of why people have become relatively dismissive of the liturgy and why it is held in much lower regard today than was true in the past. Basically we have lost the sense of what is sacred.

insidecatholic.com/Joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1382&Itemid=121

Ender

 

[Shiphrae]

I totally agree, James!!!

Here is something on the subject:

*The Church and Forgiveness
Question Hello Sister Marie:I do not expect you to publish this or even answer it, to do so is your choice. It is a comment about the “ask the sister” function.I fully agree with you that the Catholic Church is human, and a church that has made mistakes, however, I take great exception when you indicate that the church “has asked forgiveness for those mistakes” some mistakes yes they have, but a great many they have not.I am not perfect, far from it. I have suffered some of those “mistakes” the church have made, but instead of help, I was told to leave. What forgiving church does that?You ask us to pray, what happens to those of us that can no longer do?They say that God never turned his back on his people, why does his church?**Answer Hi,It is with a heavy heart that I come and answer your question. Heavy because, like you, there are many who still feel hurt and not accepted in the Church. Yet, I do stand behind the fact that the Church in the Great Jubilee Year of 2000 asked forgiveness for all mistakes it had done, past and present. I quote the document of John Paul II:As the Successor of Peter, I (John Paul II) ask that in this year of mercy the Church, strong in the holiness which she receives from her Lord, should kneel before God and implore forgiveness for the past and present sins of her sons and daughters. All have sinned and none can claim righteousness before God (cf. 1 Kgs 8:46). Let it be said once more without fear: “We have sinned” (Jer 3:25), but let us keep alive the certainty that “where sin increased, grace abounded even more” (Rom 5:20). (no. 11 from “Incarnationis Mysterium – Bull of Indiction of the Great Jubilee of the Year 2000”). My heart is also heavy, because all the eggs are put in the same basket. By this I mean, that unfortunately, because of one who is to represent the church makes a bad reaction or mistake the Church ends up taking the blame.I apologize for the sense of loss and hurt that you were put through, for you are right again, we are to be a forgiving Church, a welcoming Church, a compassionate Church, etc. But, we have a bad habit of failing to be Christ like, at the most sensitive times. That is why, I enjoy the “penitential right” at the beginning of the Eucharist, for it permits me to ask forgiveness for sins I have done. “I confess to almighty God, and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault, in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done, and in what I have failed to do; and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angels and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord, our God.” One of my students shared with me the other day. “The fruits that we bear are not always good, that’s why we are never “worthy to receive Jesus in the Eucharist, yet Jesus only has to say a word and we will be healed.”As for not being able to pray, that’s normal, for when we are hurt, the anger, the pain, the suffering takes over our heart. Yet, by the grace of God, our anger, our pain and our suffering become a very powerful prayer. Believe me; God hears the cry of the poor and the suffering, more than any other prayer. That is probably why God is his wisdom, sent us the Holy Spirit, whom as St. Paul tells us, prays for us. “…because (we) are children, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”” [Gal 4:6] As for your last question, I truly cannot answer it, for that is one that I carry myself in my heart. The only thing that I can say, is that as children of God, we only have to believe in God as a loving Father, full of compassion and forgiveness; in Jesus Christ, who because of the love that he had in his heart, gave his life for the forgiveness of our sins and in the Holy Spirit, who continues to guide us to the love of God.I will pray with and for you, asking God to forgive those who have caused you pain, using the words of Jesus on the cross: "Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing."I will also pray that God’s healing love fill your heart with peace, so that you may also feel and believe that God hears yours prayers, even those in the form of pain and sadness.May God Bless you and keep you in his loving arms. +Sr. Marie ***
The sister who answers the questions does not even ask the person what her complaint is against the Church. She totally assumes that the person was wronged. Sometimes, unfortunately, the Church has no choice but to refuse communion to a person. If someone insists on continuing in a life of sin, it is his or her choice to separate from the Church.

I believe this sister is not giving good advice and is wronging the Church.
Peace of Christ to all,
Shiphrae

 

[Shiphrae]

I’m wondering if people don’t get the fact that if we allow even one law of the Church to be ignored, it will lead to more laws being overlooked. What will eventually happen is that the true faith under the leadership of the Pope in some churches will not exist. It will become another separated religion. Or if it isn’t separated physically, it will be spiritually.

I think that we, the people who care about the true faith, have to speak out when some of the laws of the Church are ignored. We should write to our bishops to ask his stand on various issues.

My point in my previous post was to show how the sister was failing to express the obligation of the Church to stand for right even though it does cause pain to some people. The temporary pain that results in our life, from following the right way is nothing compared to an eternity in hell.

 

[WonderfulLife]

Not at all. If you properly understand christian doctrine, much of leftist politics will be utterly repulsive to you. Similarly, if you genuinely love your neighbor as yourself, much of rightist politics will be abhorrent to you.

This is why catholics should neither be left wing, nor right wing. Just catholic. The trouble comes when it is time to vote and the choices end up being between bad and worse. In primaries, I generally refuse to vote for anybody with any positions I find repulsive and as a result, my primary vote usually goes to a guy nobody has ever heard of. In general elections, I usually concede that it is better to vote for bad than worse. Thus, I more vote AGAINST the other candidate rather than FOR the one I punch.

IMO the best way to determine who to vote for is to rank the seriousness of the issues at hand and vote for the one with the decent position on the most crucial issues. In my lifetime, this unfortunately means that economic social justice issues get trumped by more fundamentla human rights every time. This just ends up meaning I need to tackle the social justice problems personally and as a member of my church, rather than as a voter.

Not to hijack the thread totally, but this really is the tragedy of our day. If catholics had clarity of prioritizing moral issues in voting, we’d easily be THE swing group that would decide every election. In no time flat we’d abolish abortion, ban human body part farming (stem cell experiments), defund the abortion and contraceptive imperialists in the UN and then we could move on to the trickier issues of how to correct the economic injustices in our society while maintaining healthy free enterprise. Instead, we can’t seem to agree on priorities, cancel out each others vote and have no block influence on elections at all. Sad.

I very much agree.

I tend to swing to the economic justice when voting rather than legislating against sin, though.

I do think there is a lesser of two evils, politically.

 

[WonderfulLife]

Agreed 100% with this change:

Social Justice is DOCTRINE. Jesus was a countercultural radical. He was a radical in his day and as some believe (e.g. Crossan) he would no doubt be given the short end of the stick by the Church today given his radical perspective.

Do you really think that Jesus would care if we deviated from the “rubrics” or didn’t “pray the words as written”? Talk about missing the forest for the trees.

However, the choir has got to be able sing…

I am mostly in agreement. Yes, I too see Jesus as both Son of God and as a social revolutionary. I think too that many, as you put it, miss the forest for the trees, but I do not hold the Church as an entity accountable for it’s surface conflicts with the faith itself.

Humans are flawed and humans who make up the Church even near the top are no less flawed. I stick with the truth of the dogma so I don’t get upset with the Church as a whole for the failure of individuals in it.

 

[Ender]

I’m wondering if people don’t get the fact that if we allow even one law of the Church to be ignored, it will lead to more laws being overlooked. What will eventually happen is that the true faith under the leadership of the Pope in some churches will not exist.

There is another thread discussing the removal of a priest in Baltimore for liturgical abuses and I suspect that this is an example of a priest reaching the conclusion that doctrine is nice but social justice is reality and is the more important of the two.

Ender

 

[Shiphrae]

*There is another thread discussing the removal of a priest in Baltimore for liturgical abuses and I suspect that this is an example of a priest reaching the conclusion that doctrine is nice but social justice is reality and is the more important of the two.

Ender*

In other words, he has decided that he knows more than God, right? Since Jesus gave us the Church to guide us when He said 'You are Peter and on this rock… ’ He expects us to follow the Pope’s leadership. None of us, not even a priest, has the right to decide that something else is more important. If we break a law of the Church, we are breaking away from the Church and therefore from God.

Peace of Christ,
Shiphrae

 

[Shiphrae]

Jesus obviously did not consider issues of social justice to be of first importance. If it would have been so, He would have spent His life on earth organizing and working for those issues. Instead He spent His life teaching. He was much more concerned with our spiritual life. And, of course we all know that He suffered and died to give us eternal life. The Church has to follow His example.

Working to better conditions with the poor and other problems in the world is important. But God’s Word comes first. Likewise the Pope’s word has to be first with the Church.

Peace of Christ,
Shiphrae

 

[EHRAM]

Not to mention hell and damnation. One poster asked when the last time I heard a homily on hell was. Hmmmmmmm…Probably don’t want to scare the kids. How about scaring the hell out of them? The Seattle Archdiocese was in a sling back in the 80s for Archbishop Hunthausen holding gay masses and such. Maybe the band played AC/DC’s Highway to hell. Real inclusive, huh?

Christ’s peace be always with you.

The last time I heard a homily on Hell was last Sunday. Heaven and Purgatory were mentioned as well.

 

[estesbob]

There is another thread discussing the removal of a priest in Baltimore for liturgical abuses and I suspect that this is an example of a priest reaching the conclusion that doctrine is nice but social justice is reality and is the more important of the two.

Ender

What does letting an Episcopal Priestess assist in the Mass have to do with Social Justice?

 

[Ender]

What does letting an Episcopal Priestess assist in the Mass have to do with Social Justice?

It relates to the question of priorities asked by the OP and I believe it is an example of where this kind of thinking leads when a priest comes to believe the same things expressed by others in this forum.

Peregrino:

Do you really think that Jesus would care if we deviated from the “rubrics” or didn’t “pray the words as written”?

TMC:

Certainly I don’t care if a parish screws up the liturgy, and I don’t think that comes even close to Social Justice in importance.

Ender

 

[EHRAM]

What does letting an Episcopal Priestess assist in the Mass have to do with Social Justice?

FWIW, Episcopal women are ordained as priests not priestesses.

And the connection with Social Justice may have something to do with inclusiveness.