Socialized healthcare

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your comments about educational level may be correct. tell you what. promise to pay teachers entry level wages, commensurate with their eductional level if they have doctors degrees and you might get more teacher with doctoral degrees. aa
And what do we do with all the teachers who don’t have doctorates? Do we fire them?

That’s the rock that all such argumenrts founder on – the simple fact that the old guard of teachers will remain, will have seniority, and will demand even higher pay.
just remember, if you want to get the best people you can, the seciong you make doctoral degrees a firm requirement, you are going to be competeing with all the jobbs in society that require a doctoral degree. taxes might respond.
That’s why I support CAI – we can’t afford PHDs at every school, for every course.

But we can afford PHDs to help develop the CAI courses that will be delivered via internet to all schools.

There are about 50 million children in school in the US – say roughly 3-4 million in each grade (the lower grades being more numerous.) If we could hire one PHD as the Subject Matter Expert in math to develop all the high school math courses, then the cost of his salary would be spread over millions of students. And once the course was developed and paid for, there would be no further expense for the SME.
please examine ther the curriculum at any college or university for teaching degrees. there is much much much more time devoted to subject matter than education courses, right or wrong. in this instance you are wrong. textbooks, one and only one item in the arsenal of material that a teacher has available to him to help teach. sometimes not even the most used or effective item there are all kinds of things that a teacher can and should use. and most that i know do use.
Who said text books are the only things teachers use?
texta sre tested all the time. it wiould be fair to say that they are tested for validity, content, comprehensiveness, interest every daybt student teachers, curriculum ciommittes, admiinistrators, parents, city councils, and evidently since he seems to know so myuch about education the president.
No, they are not “tested.” If they were, there wouldn’t be so many errors in them (Google “errors in textbooks” and see what you find.) If textbooks were merely proofread, there wouldn’t be any need for this: education-world.com/a_curr/curr279.shtml

Here’s an example (from colleges.com/Umagazine/articles/campusclips/textbooks.html)
Big blunders found in school textbooks
By Andrew J. Pulskamp
The fruits of knowledge are a hard won harvest. In the 13 years from kindergarten to college, the main occupation of a person’s life is learning. Students slog their way through high school finding out that the first life on earth consisted of tiny green specks and that one of the common characteristics of all organisms is that they can move on their own.
There were the lessons about Sir Isaac Newton going up to the top of the leaning tower of Pisa to drop a ten-pound weight and a one-pound weight. This was all to show that objects of different weights still fall at the same rate.
i am not against anything you are saying, quite the contrary possibly, excepy your seeming ridea as to the simplicity of learning by cai as opposed. to anything else. cai is great in its place, but so are other thinngs.
But the other things are failing – we have a 30% high school dropout rate in this country, and many who do graduate cannot read or write.
finally and perhaps most importantly. almost everybody outside the profession forgets the most important factor in comoparing either educational achievement today compaered to yesterday. you have, collectively, with purpose or no, assigned us tasks that no system was ever assigned, perhaps in all recorded histroy. you expect us to do things that were originally the responsibility of parentm, priests, rabbis, business men, employers, and the list goes on and on and on. and you have also taken a population of individuals who 100 yrars ago would not have been afforded the luxyry of an education, because society decided that they just couldnt benefit from it or didnt deserve it. we have this population,… yoiuve goven us almost nothing additional to help educate this population. yothe resources you allocate to us ro do these extra jobs are essentially the same as they used to be before we were assigned them. and then you sat back in tyour easy chair and said OK now do the job. thats insane. one last thing any program that take sasomething as complex as education and claims “it works for everybody” is and should be regarde immediately with suspicion.
So the government school system has failed. We knew that.
 
As I said there is no requirement for excellent typing in these forums. No rule whatsoever. But there are rules for charity and the way some joke about him just seems uncharitable. If he used your method he would be so far behind in the conversation then we would complain about that.
Simple courtesy to our fellow debaters demands we make some effort to produce coherent, understandable posts.

Simple courtesy to those who cannot produce coherent, understandable posts demands we assist them with advice.
 
uup until now i was very impressed with you and your arguement. thats why i have a very difficult time acepting your last letter. where inb trhe world did almost everything you wrote about come from. one of us is from mars the other from pluto,.im not even sure im can begin to answer it. but here goes. as a general over all statement referring th=o your synopsism of my writing i did nt say that.----what didnt i say? almost everythuing you say i said. lets try. what would happen to surplus teachers. we would do just as wo did about 25 or 30 years ago. we started to emphasized the necessity for teachers to have masters degrees. uo until the time there were not any where near as many as there are now. lo and behold, salaries went up and so did the number of teachers with masters degrees, was and is there still a backlog of teachers who did not and do not have masters oh yes. some who dont even have degrees in teaching a sh=ubject. what dio you do about it, exactly as we are doing, you accept the fact that this is going to happen in a society that is doing the best it can and plow on. would it be nice if we could devise a systen where all the teachers magically achieved not only a doctotrate but the knowledge inherent in a doctors degree, oh yes. is thee any way we can do it that would not violate the terms of the contract we made with these people when we hired them without a requirement that thet get a doctorate. NO. (end of part 1 sorry bu my 2 finger get very tired more a little later if yiou wish me to, come to think ofiyou cant stop me,. well you dodnt have to read it
 
old guard will remain yes thay will. demand higher salary yes they will (like almost everyone in or society does periodically), have seniority yes, why should they be penalized , punished, fired etcbecause we as a society made a fundament al mistrake when we hired them as signing them to a contract. for all you know one or two of them may bevery capable, very knowledgeable, and one or two with doctoral degrees might be an taching idiot. it would be nice if, at the moment we dicide that we need techers who have knowledge equivilent to that they would gain with a foctoral these residuals would idasappear. bu t they wont. meanwhilde if they are truly incompetant they can be fired. believe me i know how difficult this is. . any consideration of the eductional system as a whole and of the extermd bitterness the split between liberals and conservatives ther is nowe would tell you ibn an instant why this has to be true. lowwer the standards for dismissal —fine—lower them a tad too far and you have chaos. right trying to ge this wone fired because he dared suggest if might be a good ides to say the word contraceptive in an englissh class, left trying to get him fired because he wont even mention intelligenent design in a biology class and the list goes on. the contract between teacher and society is and must be a solid one. so they are difficult tio fire. i suggest that this is something you fight against and try to correct as much as possible within the limits of thatrm contract, but in the end you will and must lose,. the dangers to society of breajking that contract wheter it is a written one or a tacit one are considerable. forced tio make a choice between doing that and letting an incopmpetatnt or at least an undegrered teacher stay----well take your pick try to rememe=ber that most likely you work uunder the terms of a written or ubwritted contract. just how nmuch “whim” are you willing to allow youe employer whren he is trying to decide whher to kep you or not,
 
I’m really sickened the way some of the posters here treat Alfred. It shows a total lack of compassion. And this on a Catholic website of all things. Appalling. I officially call on the mods to put an end to this mistreatment of someone who is participating to the best of their abilities.
Relax Jimbo we aren’t the guys with the handle AlfredENeuman! And just so ya know Alred E. Neuman has been that guy on Mad Magazine since that I use to read as a boy. Do a google on Mad Magazine and come up to speed. He’s that guy in the pic I attached LOL. Too much!

My take on AlfredE he’s just out here messing wth us. LOL, and I happen to like a guy with a since of humor.

But back to spelling and such. Sometimes ya just gotta call it like it is. That was one thing about the Sister’s at Christ The King, if you were in the 6th grade and spelled like a 1st grade, they were subject to send ya down there for a day. “Well if you’re gonna spell or act like a 1st grader might as well spend the day with them.” I kid you not. And they didn’t care if it hurt your feelings or not. Spend a day in the first grade and you’ll study for the next test like your suppose to. Pemanship? If they couldn’t read it went straight to the trash, “I can’t read this, do it again.”

Now take A D D I never heard of kid at CTK with that. The Sister’s had a cure for it- it was called a PADDLE, and it cured alot of ADD. LOL.

But I digress Jimbo, I think AlfredE might be playin us, I mean he’s put a couple of posts up here I can’t tell what they’re about LOL. They dont make any sense. I mean look at his name Alred E Neuman that oughta tell ya something! But I could be mistaken, he could be legit, but this is the internet yanno!
 
Relax Jimbo we aren’t the guys with the handle AlfredENeuman! And just so ya know Alred E. Neuman has been that guy on Mad Magazine since that I use to read as a boy. Do a google on Mad Magazine and come up to speed. He’s that guy in the pic I attached LOL. Too much!

My take on AlfredE he’s just out here messing wth us. LOL, and I happen to like a guy with a since of humor.

But back to spelling and such. Sometimes ya just gotta call it like it is. That was one thing about the Sister’s at Christ The King, if you were in the 6th grade and spelled like a 1st grade, they were subject to send ya down there for a day. “Well if you’re gonna spell or act like a 1st grader might as well spend the day with them.” I kid you not. And they didn’t care if it hurt your feelings or not. Spend a day in the first grade and you’ll study for the next test like your suppose to. Pemanship? If they couldn’t read it went straight to the trash, “I can’t read this, do it again.”

Now take A D D I never heard of kid at CTK with that. The Sister’s had a cure for it- it was called a PADDLE, and it cured alot of ADD. LOL.

But I digress Jimbo, I think AlfredE might be playin us, I mean he’s put a couple of posts up here I can’t tell what they’re about LOL. They dont make any sense. I mean look at his name Alred E Neuman that oughta tell ya something! But I could be mistaken, he could be legit, but this is the internet yanno!
Re: penmanship classes in Catholic schools.

I am 65 1/2 years old and I STILL have that little bump on my finger from all the penmanship practice!!!

[My family and most of my former employers all agree that the penmanship practice “didn’t take”.]
 
uup until now i was very impressed with you and your arguement. thats why i have a very difficult time acepting your last letter. where inb trhe world did almost everything you wrote about come from. one of us is from mars the other from pluto,.im not even sure im can begin to answer it. but here goes. as a general over all statement referring th=o your synopsism of my writing i did nt say that.----what didnt i say? almost everythuing you say i said.
That’s why I say use a word processor and clean up your spelling and grammar. It’s very difficult to understand what you mean.
lets try. what would happen to surplus teachers. we would do just as wo did about 25 or 30 years ago. we started to emphasized the necessity for teachers to have masters degrees. uo until the time there were not any where near as many as there are now. lo and behold, salaries went up and so did the number of teachers with masters degrees, was and is there still a backlog of teachers who did not and do not have masters oh yes. some who dont even have degrees in teaching a sh=ubject.
Two points – I was in grad school when that happened in Georgia. I attended Georgia State University’s adjunct campus at Fort Benning. We military students were called in and told many civilians would now be going to class with us – and the standards were set: “The civilian teachers will not be held to the same standards as you will be held. That’s especially true of minority teachers – we can’t afford to wash them out.”

The second point is, to this day you cannot teach school in most states unless you have a degree in Education. A PHD with a Nobel prize in Chemistry would be “unqualified” to teach and would have to go back to college and pick up credits in Education.

On the other hand, a teacher with a master’s degree in Education and a few undergraduate courses in Chemistry would be legally qualified to teach Chemistry in the public schools.

Bottom line – even if the teacher has a graduate degree, the teacher is not an expert in the field.
what dio you do about it, exactly as we are doing, you accept the fact that this is going to happen in a society that is doing the best it can and plow on.
No, you don’t! You** don’t** wash your hands of the 30% of children who drop out of school, and of those who graduate unable to read and write.

You don’t shrug your shoulders and say, “That’s the best we can do” and plow on.

Those children are American citizens, and they have a Constitutional right to Equal Protection Under the Law – that is, a right to the same quality education other kids get.
would it be nice if we could devise a systen where all the teachers magically achieved not only a doctotrate but the knowledge inherent in a doctors degree, oh yes. is thee any way we can do it that would not violate the terms of the contract we made with these people when we hired them without a requirement that thet get a doctorate. NO. (end of part 1 sorry bu my 2 finger get very tired more a little later if yiou wish me to, come to think ofiyou cant stop me,. well you dodnt have to read it
Ah, you have put your finger on it – better to sacrifice the children than to “violate the contract” with the teachers.

How many generations of poor children are you willing to sacrifice?

Here begins the tutorial: You can quote a post, and reply to it point by point (as I did in this post.) You begin by clicking on the “quote” button next to the “reply” button in the lower right of the window…

When you do that, you will see the other person’s text preceeded by a quote code – in this case, your quote code is QUOTE=ALFREDENEUMAN;3609780. I have left it incomplete – there should be a square bracket at the end.

You take the part you want to reply to and end the quote with /QUOTE (again, the ending square bracket is missing.)

If you want to address several sections (as I have in this post), you cut and past the original quote code at the head of the next quoted section.
 
old guard will remain yes thay will. demand higher salary yes they will (like almost everyone in or society does periodically), have seniority yes, why should they be penalized , punished, fired etcbecause we as a society made a fundament al mistrake when we hired them as signing them to a contract. ,
Because the purpose of the Public School system is to educate the children. It is not to provide cushy jobs for union members at the expense of the children.

How many generations of children are you willing to sacrifice for the union?
 
Vern told Alfred E. Neuman this-
How many generations of children are you willing to sacrifice for the union?
Y’all remember that song from the 80’s “Another Brick in the Wall?” And the video that went with it? The one where they had people just marching off the belts over the edge in a endless line? What that line reminds me off. 😛

Then Al said-
am 65 1/2 years old and I STILL have that little bump on my finger from all the penmanship practice!!!
[My family and most of my former employers all agree that the penmanship practice “didn’t take”.]
So you sign your name like a doctor? What did your people say when they brought stuff in for ya to sign?
 
Vern told Alfred E. Neuman this-

Y’all remember that song from the 80’s “Another Brick in the Wall?” And the video that went with it? The one where they had people just marching off the belts over the edge in a endless line? What that line reminds me off. 😛

Then Al said-

So you sign your name like a doctor? What did your people say when they brought stuff in for ya to sign?
They ask me if I’m a doctor.

:rotfl:

I, of course, respond in Latin.

Mica, mica, stella parva.
 
sorry one of my finger s just jumped did its own thing and pressed between the keys. like magic what i had written just disapper=ared. but back to whatever. ill say one more thing you do me and you do you a vast disservice bu evern suggesting thast what i said or implied was that we shopuld no tdo evreythig we can not only for the 30 percwent but fir all. yiou must know that you are dekliverately misquoting my intent, if yiou dont this is like argueing with a brock wll. you really should apologize, but since you wer ignorabt enought o suggest it in the first place when you must have known it couldnt be true.m an apology is the last thing i have a right to expect from you. one worjd there are aas i implied above, situations whuich yiou wish would never occir, situation where the right thing to do is difficult no matter whuich side you take,. this may be one of them alll i really said about this is that you have to make a choice between retaining that 30 percent and doing everything you can to try and bring the figure doiwn or byou must defy a basic tenet upion wghich our politicalm economic, social, even religious system is built upon, that once you give a person your word, either by a written or a silen contract that has to be what you do. anything else is chaos. think about it. will eberybody benefit equally by maintaing this principal of course not,.,. is it still worth keeping, and then trying to keep the collateral damage to a minimu, think about it. i really resent yo9ur implication.
 
just rereading some of the thingfs you havwe said about the effectiveness of cai that not a teaching machine thats god you are talking about.
 
#781 "better to sacrifice " etce you even infer the possiblility that i would ssuggest this. where do you find even the remotest hint that i think this is true. if you mean that i am saying that we have to take this 30 turn them over to a human person, who will tryn to underrstand why they cannot or do not respond to a machine. then your are right. now oplease read the next as carefyully as you can with as little of a biased percepttul set as ty=you can manage./ assume the 30 opercent are 30 children,. number then from 1 to 30. now if you are very fortunate you will have a teacher who has taken enoughnon subject matter courses WH AT YOU CALL RDUCATION COURSES so that she is able tio recognize that no 300 cute littele person had difficulty last night when her fatrher came into her troom and sliped in bed beside her, told her not to worry, dady wont hurt you, n she willl know or find out that nio 16 vomitted uop his breakfast this morning and although she is only 14 years old and doeasnt know it…she is pregnant she will find out that no 11 is really havent a difficult time because he cant sit without it hurting from the beating he got that morning. an d it goes on and on. please dont tell me all about how this kind of stuff is so rare that its really not terribly important because well i was going to say the cai machine will spot all of it and handle it. somehow i doubt it., and it does happen over and over and over again.
 
That’s why I say use a word processor and clean up your spelling and grammar. It’s very difficult to understand what you mean.

Two points – I was in grad school when that happened in Georgia. I attended Georgia State University’s adjunct campus at Fort Benning. We military students were called in and told many civilians would now be going to class with us – and the standards were set: “The civilian teachers will not be held to the same standards as you will be held. That’s especially true of minority teachers – we can’t afford to wash them out.”

The second point is, to this day you cannot teach school in most states unless you have a degree in Education. A PHD with a Nobel prize in Chemistry would be “unqualified” to teach and would have to go back to college and pick up credits in Education.

On the other hand, a teacher with a master’s degree in Education and a few undergraduate courses in Chemistry would be legally qualified to teach Chemistry in the public schools.

Bottom line – even if the teacher has a graduate degree, the teacher is not an expert in the field.

No, you don’t! You** don’t** wash your hands of the 30% of children who drop out of school, and of those who graduate unable to read and write.

You don’t shrug your shoulders and say, “That’s the best we can do” and plow on.

Those children are American citizens, and they have a Constitutional right to Equal Protection Under the Law – that is, a right to the same quality education other kids get.

Ah, you have put your finger on it – better to sacrifice the children than to “violate the contract” with the teachers.

How many generations of poor children are you willing to sacrifice?

Here begins the tutorial: You can quote a post, and reply to it point by point (as I did in this post.) You begin by clicking on the “quote” button next to the “reply” button in the lower right of the window…

When you do that, you will see the other person’s text preceeded by a quote code – in this case, your quote code is
 
Relax Jimbo we aren’t the guys with the handle AlfredENeuman! And just so ya know Alred E. Neuman has been that guy on Mad Magazine since that I use to read as a boy. Do a google on Mad Magazine and come up to speed. He’s that guy in the pic I attached LOL. Too much!

My take on AlfredE he’s just out here messing wth us. LOL, and I happen to like a guy with a since of humor.

But back to spelling and such. Sometimes ya just gotta call it like it is. That was one thing about the Sister’s at Christ The King, if you were in the 6th grade and spelled like a 1st grade, they were subject to send ya down there for a day. “Well if you’re gonna spell or act like a 1st grader might as well spend the day with them.” I kid you not. And they didn’t care if it hurt your feelings or not. Spend a day in the first grade and you’ll study for the next test like your suppose to. Pemanship? If they couldn’t read it went straight to the trash, “I can’t read this, do it again.”

Now take A D D I never heard of kid at CTK with that. The Sister’s had a cure for it- it was called a PADDLE, and it cured alot of ADD. LOL.

But I digress Jimbo, I think AlfredE might be playin us, I mean he’s put a couple of posts up here I can’t tell what they’re about LOL. They dont make any sense. I mean look at his name Alred E Neuman that oughta tell ya something! But I could be mistaken, he could be legit, but this is the internet yanno!
 
Relax Jimbo we aren’t the guys with the handle AlfredENeuman! And just so ya know Alred E. Neuman has been that guy on Mad Magazine since that I use to read as a boy. Do a google on Mad Magazine and come up to speed. He’s that guy in the pic I attached LOL. Too much!

My take on AlfredE he’s just out here messing wth us. LOL, and I happen to like a guy with a since of humor.

But back to spelling and such. Sometimes ya just gotta call it like it is. That was one thing about the Sister’s at Christ The King, if you were in the 6th grade and spelled like a 1st grade, they were subject to send ya down there for a day. “Well if you’re gonna spell or act like a 1st grader might as well spend the day with them.” I kid you not. And they didn’t care if it hurt your feelings or not. Spend a day in the first grade and you’ll study for the next test like your suppose to. Pemanship? If they couldn’t read it went straight to the trash, “I can’t read this, do it again.”

Now take A D D I never heard of kid at CTK with that. The Sister’s had a cure for it- it was called a PADDLE, and it cured alot of ADD. LOL.

But I digress Jimbo, I think AlfredE might be playin us, I mean he’s put a couple of posts up here I can’t tell what they’re about LOL. They dont make any sense. I mean look at his name Alred E Neuman that oughta tell ya something! But I could be mistaken, he could be legit, but this is the internet yanno!
 
about the speling i taught school for over 30 years, a lot of that tiem wass spent teaching 8th graders english,… (one of the subjects i dont have a doctorae in) believe me you learn very quickly how to spell when you are teaching english to 8 th graders. i can still remember from my FIRST year the battle a kid an d i had over separate and sererate. he was right. i vowed never again. i do know how to speell very adequately thank yiou. the reason it doesnt reflect iteslf in whpat im writning on the boards-----none of your business, the reasons are well and giod thank you. i dont if i can help it go around dliberately making a fool of myslf and then making sur e its in writing so everybody. cn see. it may come out that way, but this has nothing tom do with bad spelling. by the way your nuns and mine must have graduated for the same teachersd training school (do you suppose they got their docterate in a subject ares), i have essentially the same scars bruises and memories.
 
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