'Sola Caritas' Trumps 'Sola fide'

[JonNC]

Interesting points, Jon.

Now, I’ve never said that we can achieve all these things without grace. Luther was correct in saying this.

However: I feel that you haven’t addressed my points on justification by works that Saint Paul wrote in Scripture. Please address the issue: Why would Saint Paul write justification by works by doers of the Law and Abraham; if it weren’t true?

Which came first for Abraham? Was he justified by works, then faith came along? Or did he have faith, from which the fruits (works) came?
There are no doers of the law without faith first.
Again is a baptized infant condemned because they’ve done no works?

Can we boast about our good works, or are they really His works that we are only capable of because of grace through faith?

Works done under the Spirit’s guidance are part of our growth in grace. But we access grace through faith.

 

[dopeyMS]

Protestants will never address 500 year old objections to their beliefs in any kind of meaningful way. All they will do is swat them down like some annoying mosquitos at a backyard BBQ.

 

[JonNC]

Protestants will never address 500 year old objections to their beliefs in any kind of meaningful way. All they will do is swat them down like some annoying mosquitos at a backyard BBQ.

Please be specific. The is the second post in a row that you have made accusations.

 

[Michael16]

If I remember right; Abraham acted first, works; while he struggled with faith.

I hope I quoted Scripture right.

To be honest, in my faith walk; I didn’t believe first; then do. I did first, hoping I was right; and then believed.

 

[dopeyMS]

God has always required tests of faith for his professed people and in our day the primary test of faith is the Eucharist. Those who discern the body and blood of Christ in the sacrament happily partake while those who don’t revile it. Protestants left the Church over the Eucharist so the only way they can come back is to discern the Lord’s broken body in the bread and the Lord’s shed blood in the wine.

 

[Michael16]

To be honest: Luther taught a Real Presence. I believe you’re thinking of the Calvinists.

 

[dopeyMS]

What Luther or Calvin taught 500 years ago is nothing like what you see in modern circles. Calvinists/Reformed ordain homosexuals so I rest my case.

 

[JonNC]

If I remember right; Abraham acted first, works; while he struggled with faith.

I hope I quoted Scripture right.

To be honest, in my faith walk; I didn’t believe first; then do. I did first, hoping I was right; and then believed.

Genesis 15

And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

Hebrews 11

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised.

Romans 4

What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

But James also says:

But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, 'Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.’ And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

So, one cannot discount the importance of works.

 

[JonNC]

God has always required tests of faith for his professed people and in our day the primary test of faith is the Eucharist. Those who discern the body and blood of Christ in the sacrament happily partake while those who don’t revile it. Protestants left the Church over the Eucharist so the only way they can come back is to discern the Lord’s broken body in the bread and the Lord’s shed blood in the wine.

What are you talking about?

 

[JonNC]

What Luther or Calvin taught 500 years ago is nothing like what you see in modern circles. Calvinists/Reformed ordain homosexuals so I rest my case.

Rest what case? You haven’t made a discernible case.
There are Lutheran synods that now ordain homosexuals. The Catholic Church does , too, though usually unwittingly.
I don’t know what this has to do with the Eucharist.

To be honest: Luther taught a Real Presence. I believe you’re thinking of the Calvinists.

He taught the real presence, but yes.

 

[Michael16]

No, not the Real Presence. The Real Presence is confected by a priest ordained by the Church possessing Apostolic Succession and thus access to grace. I’m sorry, Jon. Luther’s break from the Church took his community out of that lineage.

I understand that’s what you believe and I mean no harm. But, that’s the truth.

 

[Michael16]

Thank you for providing the Scripture quotes. I really appreciate it.

However: I’m still seeing a paradox in your statement. Please help me resolve it.

In Genesis, Abraham was justified by faith. That’s all well and good. Thank God.

Your quoting of Saint James beautifully illustrates my point.

This passage shows my point very well: It’s faith and works TOGETHER, I all capped to show emphasis not yelling, I hope you understand; and not by faith only.

Now, isn’t justification that same thing as righteousness/salvation?

 

[Michael16]

I understand you, man. That’s one problem I see in Protestant communities. Their doctrines evolved over time into even more unbiblical doctrines.

My 15 year old niece perceived this dichotomy in her ELCA Confirmation class.

 

[Wannano]

I’m sorry for being uncharitable in how I was saying it and my reply to your reply. Inexcusable and again, I’m sorry.

Our Lord said: “ Love each other as I have loved you. “

My bad.

I have been gone all day. I appreciate your consideration.

 

[Wannano]

I understand you, man. That’s one problem I see in Protestant communities. Their doctrines evolved over time into even more unbiblical doctrines.

My 15 year old niece perceived this dichotomy in her ELCA Confirmation class.

It would be interesting to know what doctrines you feel have evolved into even more unbiblical doctrines. I am listening, but just a reminder, it is not fair to lump all non-Catholic Christians as Protestant. Your words even here would be softer if you could say you see it in "some Protestant communities. " If you can’t figure out what I mean, please ask for more clarification.

 

[Michael16]

I’m sorry, I was thinking of the more liberal communities like the ELCA. I should’ve clarified and not lumped in the more conservative communities.

The unbiblical doctrines I mention is Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide.

I’m editing this post because I’ve realized how much of an arrogant jerk I’ve been to you guys. I’m so sorry, please forgive me. Allow me to say this, please: I respect anyone who adheres to their principles, their beliefs, their conscience and practice their faith in truth; no matter what adversity you may face in your walk with God. I respect that you guys really delve into Scripture and really know your stuff. I disagree with your Solas and I remain Catholic. However: From now on, I’ll respect your positions and seek understanding rather than simply aggressively attacking your positions.

I admit to a poor knowledge of your guys’ doctrines and I hope you guys will enlighten me so say I may understand you guys more accurately and correctly. Saints Benedict of Nursia, Antony of the Desert, Ignatius de Loyola pray for us!

That being said: I’ll take it as first principle and foundation in my faith talks with you guys that I seek to understand your positions as accurately and correctly as I can, respecting all those who hold true to their belief systems; and I’ll try to be gentle and charitable with you guys in my apologetics while staying true to the Faith.

Fair?

But, I’d like to focus on the really questionable ways in which liberal Protestantism developed.

The ordination of women, openly practicing homosexuals, gay “ marriages “, acceptance of abortions is mainly what I’m seeing in the communities I was thinking of.

From what I gather, these communities are deviating from from Scripture in ways that would have your founders like Luther rolling in his grave.

 

[Michael16]

Could help me out?

What non Catholic Christian communities exist outside of Protestantism?

To answer your question on evolution of Protestant doctrine:

What my niece saw, and this is confirmed in my own experiences in Protestant communities and, admittedly; in heated debates with my ex wife; is that we see, at least in the ELCA; that members often interpret Scripture saying things like: “ This is what I think Jesus really meant… “

In such exegesis, my niece and I both agree that these folks are interpreting Scripture in ways that justify what they want to do anyway.

Especially when she says that every table she goes to in the fellowship hall, there’s always tales of: “ This girl got an abortion, this girl got an abortion… “ and so on.

It’s gotten so bad for her she wanted to leave the ELCA.

 

[mcq72]

A heresy that has been taught and accepted for 500 years will never be given up except by the bravest of souls who get ostracized by people like you.

Reformers faced even stiffer entrenchments and ostracizing.

 

[mcq72]

Why would Saint Paul write justification by works by doers of the Law and Abraham; if it weren’t true?

No, the real question then is why would Paul emphatically write indisputably that by works of the law, even righteous works, shall no flesh be saved? Could we not conclude that indeed by keeping the law perfectly one could be justified but all have failed save One, leaving all before and after Him to be justified by faith in his satisfying the Law?

 

[Michael16]

Could you please elaborate? I’m hoping I can understand you fully.