'Sola Caritas' Trumps 'Sola fide'

[JonNC]

JonNC:

De_Maria:

Except Jon, that we can’t find your church in Scripture. Whereas, the Catholic Church is clearly the one that Jesus Christ established. You can call it “triumphalist” if you want, but it is a fact.

Where on finds word and sacrament, there is the Church.

Lutherans don’t have valid Sacraments.

Sure we do, even if one accepts the Catholic view that it is only baptism and marriage.
Of course, that’s only the Catholic opinion.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

Lutherans don’t have valid Sacraments.

I have never understood this statement, which is self-contradicting when you examine when and where it was contrived.

1. Luther wasn’t a Bishop.
2. Therefore, he couldn’t ordain priests.
3. Therefore, the sacraments could not be validly administered.

Pretty straight forward to me. Where do you see a contradiction?

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

JonNC:

De_Maria:

Except Jon, that we can’t find your church in Scripture. Whereas, the Catholic Church is clearly the one that Jesus Christ established. You can call it “triumphalist” if you want, but it is a fact.

Where on finds word and sacrament, there is the Church.

Lutherans don’t have valid Sacraments.

Sure we do, even if one accepts the Catholic view that it is only baptism and marriage.

Those are the only two Sacraments where the common priesthood administers the Sacrament.

Of course, that’s only the Catholic opinion.

The opinion of the one infallible Church established by Jesus Christ which is the pillar and foundation of the Truth and which binds and looses in God’s name, on earth and in heaven.

 

[JonNC]

The opinion of the one infallible Church established by Jesus Christ which is the pillar and foundation of the Truth and which binds and looses in God’s name, on earth and in heaven.

And that’s a Catholic opinion, too, but one every Catholic should believe.

Those are the only two Sacraments where the common priesthood administers the Sacrament.

Any knowledgeable Lutheran will tell you that Lutheran orders and sacraments, indeed, valid.

 

[dopeyMS]

I have never understood this statement, which is self-contradicting when you examine when and where it was contrived.

Everything about the Church is based on apostolic succession. Salvation is based on membership and being connected to God’s church not man’s church. The Protestant religion is man made.

 

[dopeyMS]

Any knowledgeable Lutheran will tell you that Lutheran orders and sacraments, indeed, valid.

The only thing valid about the Lutheran church is when they recite the Nicene creed and show some connection to the Mother Church.

 

[De_Maria]

If you don’t believe in Apostolic succession, by what criteria do you consider your orders, valid?

2 Timothy 2
2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

1 Timothy 4:14
Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

 

[TULIPed]

Salvation is based on membership and being connected to God’s church not man’s church.

Jesus and the cross have a part too, no?

 

[TULIPed]

It’s not about who can quote the bible the best and look the most holy which few protestants ever figure out.

Caritas means love, no? “Love is patient, love is kind…”. That kind of love? Is this an example of that sort of love? Love for your enemy - or even a Protestant. I can tell you. - as a Protestant - it sure doesn’t feel like it - brother/sister.

 

[mcq72]

Please don’t start with the political correctness. Eliminating is a perfectly fine word which I’ve used countless times and in the span of at least ten years and you’re the first to make that complaint.

Understand, just that when a poster here refers to Wycliffe and Huss as, “people that no one cares about anymore, just footnotes in a long history” who both literally happened to be eliminated in a certain respective fashions, and your post acknowledging elimination of some OT prophets as, “uh what? anyways…” and saying that is between God and man (not shortcomings of leadership) just makes one wonder if a certain flavor is being served here, one that i rarely see in years also…but understand your context as benign and strictly dialogue on church legitimacy.

Really? We don’t live in a perfect world.

ok, so you agree the church leadership has not been a perfect representation of Christ…thank you, and while you may say not in doctrine, scripture has no basis for that, and even in one of revelation’s churches , bad doctrine needed “reforming”.

First you have to reign in the non-Catholics who want to interpret his words in their private fashion.

like Eve saying fix my husband first before I straighten out my failure/responsibility.

Failings in the OT and in the NT are between God and man

absolutely, and some of those men were leaders, even forming corporate magisterium…and actually God holds the leaders quite to the task even more so…silly for Him to say so if they were going to be infallible anyways in doctrine

Neh. The Protestants I speak to deny that St. Peter was appointed the leader of the Apostles. They grant that honor to St. James and later, to St. Paul, in the Church of the Gentiles.

I have never heard that about James or Paul being head/sole leaders amongst P’s. When I say leader , or others , they will probably be at odds with you on what that means. So if I say first amongst equals you might say that is not leader enough.

The Protestant rebellion has failed and splintered from the beginning. The Protestant rebellion resulted in confusion.

Depends on what criteria one uses, or if one limits it to say unity.

Anyone with eyes to see. Jesus did not pray for a splintered Church.

well yes one can see ''splintering", yet one can also see spirtual vitality none the less, so much so that i doubt you can tell an Anglican from a Lutheran from a Catholic at the water cooler on monday morning, or in missionary work, or coming from a prayer meeting etc

 

[mcq72]

Salvation is based on membership and being connected to God’s church not man’s church.

Man. thank you very much for Luther and SF and reformation…putting correct emphasis on the role of the institution of the church…hanging out in a garage, even the best garage, does not turn you into a car.

Luther found out, that like Nicodemus, being deeply involved in God’s ordained institution does not necessarily save one or set one free indeed.

Oh indeed once you are in Christ and He in you, you are a member of the body of Christ, connected to the church.

 

[De_Maria]

Understand, just that when a poster here refers to Wycliffe and Huss as, "people that no one cares about anymore, …

Complain to that poster. I am not a moderator.

ok, so you agree the church leadership has not been a perfect representation of Christ…thank you,

No mere man can perfectly represent Our Lord.

and while you may say not in doctrine, scripture has no basis for that, and even in one of revelation’s churches , bad doctrine needed “reforming”.

There was no bad doctrine in the Catholic Church.

Man. thank you very much for Luther and SF and reformation…

It is Satan who was originally responsible for that. Luther was merely his tool.

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

Any knowledgeable Lutheran will tell you that Lutheran orders and sacraments, indeed, valid.

The only thing valid about the Lutheran church is when they recite the Nicene creed and show some connection to the Mother Church.

1. Catholic judgment on the authenticity of Lutheran ministry need not be of an all-or-nothing nature. The Decree on Ecumenism of Vatican II distinguished between relationships of full ecclesiastical communion and those of imperfect communion to reflect the varying degrees of differences with the Catholic Church.164 The communion of these separated communities with the Catholic Church is real, even though it is imperfect. Furthermore, the decree positively affirmed:
   **Our separated brothers and sisters also celebrate many sacred actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each church or community, and must be held capable of giving access to that communion in which is salvation.****165
   Commenting on this point, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, prefect of the Congregation on the Doctrine of the Faith, wrote in 1993 to Bavarian Lutheran bishop Johannes Hanselmann:
   **I count among the most important results of the ecumenical dialogues the insight that the issue of the eucharist cannot be narrowed to the problem of ‘validity.’ Even a theology oriented to the concept of succession, such as that which holds in the Catholic and in the Orthodox church, need not in any way deny the salvation-granting presence of the Lord [ Heilschaffende Gegenwart des Herrn ] in a Lutheran [ evangelische ] Lord’s Supper.**166
   If the actions of Lutheran pastors can be described by Catholics as “sacred actions” that “can truly engender a life of grace,” if communities served by such ministers give “access to that communion in which is salvation,” and if at a eucharist at which a Lutheran pastor presides is to be found “the salvation-granting presence of the Lord,” then Lutheran churches cannot be said simply to lack the ministry given to the church by Christ and the Spirit. In acknowledging the imperfect koinonia between our communities and the access to grace through the ministries of these communities, we also acknowledge a real although imperfect koinonia between our ministries.

This is what Catholic bishops say. Their words sound far different from yours, and they carry far more weight.

http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-te...ecumenical/lutheran/koinonia-of-salvation.cfm

 

[JonNC]

If you don’t believe in Apostolic succession, by what criteria do you consider your orders, valid?

2 Timothy 2
2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

1 Timothy 4:14
Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

The Lutheran confessions show that A.S. is “believed in”.

Article XIV: Of Ecclesiastical Order.
Of Ecclesiastical Order they teach that no one should publicly teach in the Church or administer the Sacraments unless he be regularly called.

Article XIV: Of Ecclesiastical Order.
[24]](http://bookofconcord.org/defense_13_ecclesiasticalorder.php#para24) The Fourteenth Article, in which we say that in the Church the administration of the Sacraments and Word ought to be allowed no one unless he be rightly called, they receive, but with the proviso that we employ canonical ordination. Concerning this subject we have frequently testified in this assembly that it is our greatest wish to maintain church-polity and the grades in the Church [old church-regulations and the government of bishops], even though they have been made by human authority [provided the bishops allow our doctrine and receive our priests]. For we know that church discipline was instituted by the Fathers, in the manner laid down in the ancient canons, with a good and useful intention. [25]](http://bookofconcord.org/defense_13_ecclesiasticalorder.php#para25) But the bishops either compel our priests to reject and condemn this kind of doctrine which we have confessed, or, by a new and unheard-of cruelty, they put to death the poor innocent men. These causes hinder our priests from acknowledging such bishops. Thus the cruelty of the bishops is the reason why the canonical government, which we greatly desired to maintain, is in some places dissolved. Let them see to it how they will give an account to God for dispersing [26]](http://bookofconcord.org/defense_13_ecclesiasticalorder.php#para26) the Church. In this matter our consciences are not in danger, because since we know that our Confession is true, godly, and catholic, we ought not to approve the cruelty of those who persecute this doctrine. [27]](http://bookofconcord.org/defense_13_ecclesiasticalorder.php#para27) And we know that the Church is among those who teach the Word of God aright, and administer the Sacraments aright, and not with those who not only by their edicts endeavor to efface God’s Word, but also put to death those who teach what is right and true; [28]](http://bookofconcord.org/defense_13_ecclesiasticalorder.php#para28) towards whom, even though they do something contrary to the canons, yet the very canons are milder. Furthermore, we wish here again to testify that we will gladly maintain ecclesiastical and canonical government, provided the bishops only cease to rage against our Churches.

There are Lutherans that do ordain in apostolic succession, and there were, in fact, Catholic priests through presbyter ordination.

 

[TULIPed]

(Just making sure - you know I quoted someone else there right? I had a similar comment to yours to that quote.)

 

[mcq72]

It is Satan who was originally responsible for that. Luther was merely his tool.

As to that opinion, Luther is in good company, per others opinion, as they even said such a thing about our Lord.

No mere man can perfectly represent Our Lord.

Correct, but we were talking about corporate man, as in leadership roles even the church.

There was no bad doctrine in the Catholic Church.

Understand, just as some say there was no bad doctrine (leaven) coming from those in the seat of Moses either.

 

[mcq72]

Sooo sorry…i fixed.

 

[TULIPed]

Hahahahaha - no worries!

 

[TULIPed]

The point of this thread should be Love trumps faith.

What kind of love?

 

[Michael16]

Should be as plain and obvious as the nose on your face: Love one another as Our Lord loves us. Saint Paul simply extrapolated from there in his letters.