'Sola Caritas' Trumps 'Sola fide'

[Michael16]

Where does the catechism state sanctification?

As for 2010, it clearly states initial. Initial does not preclude what happens later.

You guys claim Luther was a faithful Catholic yet Scripture shows the truth.

The truth is your concept of Sola Fide requires exegetical rationalizations, twisting of Scripture and sophistry to make it work. None of your apologists can reasonably demonstrate how Sola Fide is even justifiable.

 

[mcq72]

It is you who claim that faith alone now includes works.

That is not what Calvin statement says

 

[mcq72]

Where does the catechism state sanctification?

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

As for 2010, it clearly states initial. Initial does not preclude what happens later.

correct. Now where is baptism in there , to reconcile with Trent quote?..Catechism says “moved by charity towards merit”…seems like that would be after baptism…

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

And there is the Laver of Regeneration, which is the justification one receives in Baptism.

understand , as some say baptism is not a work of righteousness, that it is not at all an equivalency of OT circumcision (beyond dispensation of Holy Spirit that we have now)…so as to not contradict “by works of righteousness no one is saved”.

Baptism is the work of God.

740 These “mighty works of God,” offered to believers in the sacraments of the Church, bear their fruit in the new life in Christ, according to the Spirit.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

It is you who claim that faith alone now includes works.

That is not what Calvin statement says

What does Calvin’s statement say?

 

[mcq72]

What does Calvin’s statement say?

“We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone”

very close to your catechism 2010, i see the first initial part as “justification”, the second part of phrase is justification aspect.
"*

 

[De_Maria]

Michael16:

Where does the catechism state sanctification?

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

1. You deny merit. But that shows that the Catholic Church Teaches merit.
2. We can see that the Catholic Church is talking about “the initial grace…at the beginning of conversion.” This is talking about that which is happening before Baptism.

1229 From the time of the apostles, becoming a Christian has been accomplished by a journey and initiation in several stages. This journey can be covered rapidly or slowly, but certain essential elements will always have to be present: proclamation of the Word, acceptance of the Gospel entailing conversion, profession of faith, Baptism itself, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, and admission to Eucharistic communion.

So, what’s your point? The initial call to conversion is unmerited. From then on we must merit further graces in the eyes of God. Then, we ask for Baptism and He looks into our hearts and credits our faith as righteousness. And then He grants us the gift of the Holy Spirit and the washing of regeneration and we are born again, children of God.

 

[JonNC]

You again state an inconsistent position and you evade the rest of what I said. Luther attempted to have it both ways and interpreted Scripture thusly.

This statement means you think Psul contradicted himself. How can he, in one hand say works justify while on the other hand say works do not justify.
It isn’t a contradiction. Galatians 5:6, in a nutshell, helps us understand it.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

What does Calvin’s statement say?

We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone"

If he’s didn’t add works to faith, what did he mean when he said, “faith that saves is never alone?”

 

[Michael16]

I concede the sanctification point. Again, I see you’re attempting to shoehorn your Sola Fide into our document.

 

[JonNC]

You have to examine the inconsistencies in his doctrine: It’s faith alone, faith that’s not alone, yet it’s faith alone.

I see that regardless of my efforts to explain what sola fide is, what the sola is referring to, you wish to continue with a polemical misrepresentation.

His peace,
Jon

 

[Michael16]

With your quote of both parts of Saint Paul, you begin to see the cracks in Sola Fide.
As I’m at work and I don’t have access to my Bible, please quote Gal 5:6 and I’ll help your misunderstanding of it.

 

[Michael16]

I’m not being polemical. I’m being reasonable looking at the meaning I derive from a plain reading of Sacred Scripture. I’m sorry you feel differently.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

What does Calvin’s statement say?

“We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone”

very close to your catechism 2010, i see the first initial part as “justification”, the second part of phrase is justification aspect.
"*

Not by a long shot. When the Church says that the first grace is unmerited, she means that it is not merited by either faith or works. It is given to all men.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Then, after receiving the call, they can exercise the newly given faith and begin to do righteous works in accordance to God’s will. In so doing they can begin to merit for themselves and for others, the grace of sanctification and salvation.

Nope. Calvin’s statement, which I’ve heard attributed to Luther as well, is a simple oxymoron.

 

[mcq72]

You deny merit

Right now I am only denying merit in justification, as the CC does also

We can see that the Catholic Church is talking about “the initial grace…at the beginning of conversion.” This is talking about that which is happening before Baptism.

Ok , then one is justified before baptism, also per #2010

So, what’s your point? The initial call to conversion is unmerited. From then on we must merit further graces in the eyes of God. Then, we ask for Baptism

Well i read you,…i would say initial, unmerited justification includes baptism, being born again… but where does it specify the before and after of baptism in 2010 or 1229

 

[De_Maria]

Michael16:

You have to examine the inconsistencies in his doctrine: It’s faith alone, faith that’s not alone, yet it’s faith alone.

I see that regardless of my efforts to explain what sola fide is, what the sola is referring to, you wish to continue with a polemical misrepresentation.

His peace,
Jon

Well, Jon, you say that faith alone saves but faith which saves is never alone. Basically, that’s a formula for denying Scripture.

Scripture says that faith alone is without works. But you insist that faith alone is never alone, insinuating that it is accompanied by works. Thus, you are simply thumbing your nose at Scripture.

 

[Michael16]

Look at it this way, mcq. Saint Paul wrote: Faith apart from works justifies. Faith apart, not faith alone. In the plain reading of the text, Saint Paul means that faith is not alone from works. So, it’s atill faith and works. For if he meant faith alone; he would have written alone.

 

[mcq72]

Not by a long shot. When the Church says that the first grace is unmerited, she means that it is not merited by either faith or works. It is given to all men.

where does it say this ?
no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification , at the beginning of conversion…sounds more than God’s call to all humanity…we are not forgiven and justified by proclamation of gospel

 

[De_Maria]

Right now I am only denying merit in justification, as the CC does also

The CC doesn’t. You read that into the CC.

Ok , then one is justified before baptism, also per #2010

Well i read you,…i would say initial, unmerited justification includes baptism, being born again… but where does it specify the before and after of baptism in 2010 or 1229

I see you’re focusing on the CC. Did you read the excerpt from Trent that I also provided? Or are you ignoring that on purpose? The Council of Trent is the foundation of the CC’s Teaching on justification.

 

[mcq72]

Look at it this way, mcq. Saint Paul wrote: Faith apart from works justifies. Faith apart, not faith alone. In the plain reading of the text, Saint Paul means that faith is not alone from works. So, it’s atill faith and works. For if he meant faith alone; he would have written alone.

semantic twisting. Well Paul says plainly we are not saved by works, he does not say we are saved by faith and works.