'Sola Caritas' Trumps 'Sola fide'

[Michael16]

No.,Yours is the semantic position. The plain reading of faith apart is faith not alone. Then, Saint Paul goes on to say that Doers of the Law are justified and then Saint James says what he says Jas 2:25. To defend Sola Fide against this would be twisting of the text.

Now that we can put Sola Fide to bed; the whole point of trying to read Sola Fide into the Catholic Catechism is irrelevant.

 

[Michael16]

Yours is the semantic point.,Faith apart isn’t the same as faith alone.

 

[mcq72]

I see you’re focusing on the CC. Did you read the excerpt from Trent that I also provided? Or are you ignoring that on purpose? The Council of Trent is the foundation of the CC’s Teaching on justification.

I read your trent quote and found the catechism not being very clear on baptism and initial justification with 2010…trent basically states that (initial) justification is ineffectual until baptism…so Catechism says there is justification initially but Trent says it is ineffectual until Baptism…understand, just find it not so clear in 2010.

 

[Michael16]

Your defense of Sola Fide is the twisting of the text.

 

[Michael16]

Return to my point, mcq. Sola Fide is dead. The point of trying to read it into the Catholic Catechism is irrelevant.

 

[De_Maria]

where does it say this ?

Do you mean, where does the Catechism say this?

1878 All men are called to the same end: God himself. There is a certain resemblance between the unity of the divine persons and the fraternity that men are to establish among themselves in truth and love. Love of neighbor is inseparable from love for God.

1260 “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

See also:
http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.co.../?sufs=0&q=all+men+called&xsubmit=Search&s=SS

 

[mcq72]

Yours is the semantic point.,Faith apart isn’t the same as faith alone.

well, i think I don’t mind stating emphatically that one is saved apart from works, yet agree with faith alone as stronger language to separate from environment of a works and institutional salvation that was prevalent then in Luther’s time, and even today in some churches on both sides.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

I see you’re focusing on the CC. Did you read the excerpt from Trent that I also provided? Or are you ignoring that on purpose? The Council of Trent is the foundation of the CC’s Teaching on justification.

I read your trent quote and found the catechism not being very clear on baptism and initial justification with 2010…trent basically states that (initial) justification is ineffectual until baptism…so Catechism says there is justification initially but Trent says it is ineffectual until Baptism…understand, just find it not so clear in 2010.

It’s the same thing that Scripture says. The justification of works, the justification of Moses, is, ineffectual. It does not justify of all things. Have you never wondered why the righteous Jews did not enter heaven? They were not baptized. They had to await the Crucifixion. Then Jesus Himself ushered them into heaven.

 

[mcq72]

no…I think I was asking for clarifacation on 2010, and is baptism part of initial justification or afterwards…Trent suggests baptism is not initial justification.

 

[Michael16]

Your defense is this? Let’s consider that the Church never taught works alone as it has been accused. Now, return to the point and let’s finish this: We can demonstrate that Saint Paul never taught that we are saved by faith alone. When confronted with this, you accuse me of playing semantics and then you go on to semantically state that Saint Pal never explicitly taught faith and works; when he clearly did?

 

[mcq72]

Have you never wondered why the righteous Jews did not enter heaven? They were not baptized. They had to await the Crucifixion. Then Jesus Himself ushered them into heaven.

well, there is no evidence Jesus baptized in hell, those in Paradise/Abrahams bosom…if anything it proves Jesus justified without baptism, but by His word and person.
[/QUOTE]
They did not enter heaven because the gates of heaven were not opened yet (save for Enoch and Jeremiah at least), not because they were not justified , unrighteous, even unregenerated in their spirits.

They looked forward to Calvary for salvation as we look backward .

 

[Michael16]

I see you’re evading me, mcq. Stand and answer me, please.

 

[Michael16]

Stand and answer me, please.

 

[De_Maria]

well, there is no evidence Jesus baptized in hell, those in Paradise/Abrahams bosom…if anything it proves Jesus justified without baptism, but by His word and person.

Jesus imparted upon them the sanctifying grace which infused upon us in Baptism.

They did not enter heaven because the gates of heaven were not opened yet (save for Enoch and Jeremiah at least), not because they were not justified , unrighteous, even unregenerated in their spirits.

Yes, precisely because they were not perfectly justified and unregenerated in their spirits. They were righteous, but not with the righteousness of God. Only by their own righteousness of good works.

They looked forward to Calvary for salvation as we look backward .

We look to Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist.

 

[JonNC]

Well, Jon, you say that faith alone saves but faith which saves is never alone. Basically, that’s a formula for denying Scripture.

I said that grace through faith justifies.

Being just simply means being with Christ and in Christ. And this suffices. Further observances are no longer necessary. For this reason Luther’s phrase: " faith alone " is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love.

This Catholic gets it.

 

[mcq72]

Return to my point, mcq. Sola Fide is dead. The point of trying to read it into the Catholic Catechism is irrelevant.

dont disagree with James when he says if faith has not works is dead by itself

 

[De_Maria]

no…I think I was asking for clarifacation on 2010, and is baptism part of initial justification or afterwards…Trent suggests baptism is not initial justification.

That is correct. Trent is the definitive Teaching. The Catechism says the same thing.

1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism:34

But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.35

 

[Michael16]

No, that’s semantics. Look at the plain reading, in the correct order: Faith without works is dead… A man is justified by his works, not by faith alone.

Any time faith alone is mentioned in Sacred Scripture, it’s shot down.

 

[mcq72]

Jesus imparted upon them the sanctifying grace which infused upon us in Baptism.

not sure…we are told they were justified, before Calvary, and thereafter led into heaven after waiting in paradise.

Not sure they became indwelt by the spirit when Christ was in hell

es, precisely because they were not perfectly justified and unregenerated in their spirits. They were righteous, but not with the righteousness of God. Only by their own righteousness of good works.

Calvary justifies period…we have discussed this new term of “perfectly justified” as suspect on our part. yes they had good works but , like us, are justified by faith.

We look to Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist.

Yes , we look backwards to Calvary for salvation , we eucharist till his return and our future glorification, with Him.

 

[mcq72]

Any time faith alone is mentioned in Sacred Scripture, it’s shot down.

salvation by works is shot down a lot more.