'Sola Caritas' Trumps 'Sola fide'

[mcq72]

You can argue all you want, but a look around at real life will prove you wrong ( that gifts are free)

It is not a fallacy to say you have to be good to go to heaven, the fallacy is in thinking our goodness gets us to heaven. Tough thing to teach kids…easy to say the good go to heaven, the bad to hell…but it is bondage and vanity…

even mathematically one can show you are never more than halfway to any linear goal, to get from point A to point B, we just keep changing half way points, but there always remains a halfway point…similar for road to perfection apart from Christ, who is not of this world…who does things contrary to this world…who really agape loves, loves for loves sake and and not for personal gain, who turns the other cheek, who loves enemies…I would say grace is a heavenly commodity brought down to earth thru Jesus…it is good news…it is an easier yolk, unlike earthly ways.

Find the term “free gift” in Scripture

Roman’s 5:15,16,18

“But not as the offence, so also is the free gift…but the free gift is of many offences unto justification…”
even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

Did you have to merit your sin nature from the old Adam? Likewise do you have to merit your new creation in the new Adam? …so asks/points out Paul.

I see the Douay Rheims translation does not use the word free here.

You also did not have to merit any Jubilee " freedoms" or debt freedoms.

 

[mcq72]

Christ came to bring sinners to repentance and then to save them

If I can repent without being saved, if I can turn to righteousness even be righteous, if I can repent of unbelief and believe without being saved I will still go to hell cause I am not saved yet?

 

[Michael16]

God calls and we respond. Christ called sinners to repent and that begins our lifelong conversion from sin. Repentance is the starting point on a path of conversion that leads to heaven. If you persevere in faith and good works until you die. If you die in a state of grace, you are saved.

 

[mcq72]

That’s New Testament.

Um, Mary and Joseph and John the Baptist and David etc…were all pre Calvary people ( Mary of course was both pre and post…but dare you say she was spiritually dead, not born of God, born of the Spirit, regenerated…all synomonous to born again, before Calvary?)

Can you provide the verse? Because, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit came about in the New Testament. It is the Holy Spirit which brings about new birth.

Provide verse that says regeneration, born of God, born of the Spirit, born again can only mean indwelling of the Spirit. Provide scripture that says born again is not synonymous with born of God, born of Spirit, even child of God, or walking with God, which are also OT terms.

But agree that indwelling is post Calvary dispensation. Just that being born again is something that happens to our spirits, irregardless of where HS dwells…it is a work of Him to revive our spirits…that He can do from without our bodies or in.

 

[mcq72]

Thank you! And that’s the difference between being justified before Baptism and being justified in Baptism.

Well, the apostles were baptized and to me were born again, but were not indwelt with water baptism, until after Calvary when Jesus breathed on them…and they were not baptized in Holy Ghost till after ascension vhf on pentecost.

 

[Crocus]

Today’s reading from 1 Thessalonians refers to faith itself as being a work.

unceasingly calling to mind your work of faith and labor of love
and endurance in hope of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Can someone explain how faith is a work.

 

[Johan]

Can someone explain how faith is a work.

Well, I don’t think that is what Paul is saying. As you can see, there is a parallelism between “work of faith” and “labor of love”. In both cases, we are dealing with a so-called genitive of production [1] which is a construct meaning that the noun in the genitive case is thought to be producing that which is denoted by the preceding noun. So faith produces works and love (also) produces works.

References

[1] Wallace, D. B. (1996). Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics - Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament (p. 104)

 

[De_Maria]

It is not a fallacy to say you have to be good to go to heaven, the fallacy is in thinking our goodness gets us to heaven.

That’s what the Catholic Church Teaches. The rest of your stuff about a tough thing to teach kids and all else in your message is besides the point. Think about what you said above.

That is Catholic Teaching.

God justifies those who do good. You can’t work your way to heaven. You can’t faith your way to heaven. You can’t say to God, “look how much faith I have, you owe me heaven.” God will look at you and say to you, “Come closer my friend.” Or, '“away from me, I don’t know you.”

De_Maria:

Christ came to bring sinners to repentance and then to save them

If I can repent without being saved, if I can turn to righteousness even be righteous, if I can repent of unbelief and believe without being saved I will still go to hell cause I am not saved yet?

You’ll probably go to Purgatory, if your repentance is sincere. See the righteous Jews. They were in Purgatory. But it wasn’t called Purgatory, yet. It was called, Abraham’s bosom.

 

[De_Maria]

Um, Mary and Joseph and John the Baptist and David etc…were all pre Calvary people ( Mary of course was both pre and post…but dare you say she was spiritually dead, not born of God, born of the Spirit, regenerated…all synomonous to born again, before Calvary?)

Yeah, I don’t know what Protestants are doing when they make that claim. Christ is our Lord and He is revealed in the New Testament. Mary is His mother. Mary was united with the Holy Spirit from the moment of her conception. This is a singular gift which no other human being has ever received.

Provide verse that says regeneration, born of God, born of the Spirit, born again can only mean indwelling of the Spirit. Provide scripture that says born again is not synonymous with born of God, born of Spirit, even child of God, or walking with God, which are also OT terms.

Yeah, all that is New Testament.

But agree that indwelling is post Calvary dispensation.

The Holy Spirit was given after the Crucifixion, yes.

Just that being born again is something that happens to our spirits, irregardless of where HS dwells…

No. It is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that regenerates us.
Re - again
generates - born

Regenerates means born again. It’s not a big word that does magical things. It is a word with meaning. When we are born again of the Holy Spirit, we are regenerated of the Holy Spirit.

it is a work of Him to revive our spirits…that He can do from without our bodies or in.

That is true. But it is revealed that He does it from within our bodies in the indwelling.

1 Corinthians 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. 19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.

De_Maria:

Thank you! And that’s the difference between being justified before Baptism and being justified in Baptism.

Well, the apostles were baptized and to me were born again, but were not indwelt with water baptism, until after Calvary when Jesus breathed on them…and they were not baptized in Holy Ghost till after ascension vhf on pentecost.

I’ve heard that before. To us, they were confirmed at Pentecost. Confirmation is one of the Seven Sacraments.

 

[mcq72]

Yeah, I don’t know what Protestants are doing when they make that claim.

What claim? I understand yours, that she was born again at conception. All I am saying is that she was born again (not indwelt) as any other believing Jew at the time obviously before annunciation.

You’ll probably go to Purgatory, if your repentance is sincere. See the righteous Jews. They were in Purgatory. But it wasn’t called Purgatory, yet. It was called, Abraham’s bosom.

Well generally you can’t go to purgatory/ heaven if you are not born again, even if you repented and believe, but were not baptized per your teaching.

OT saints did not go to purgatory.

 

[De_Maria]

What claim? I understand yours, that she was born again at conception. All I am saying is that she was born again (not indwelt) as any other believing Jew at the time obviously before annunciation.

That’s a fine point that the Church hasn’t revealed. But the Church has revealed that it is a singular gift which has not been given to anyone else.

Well generally you can’t go to purgatory/ heaven if you are not born again, even if you repented and believe, but were not baptized per your teaching.

Really? Would you quote it?

OT saints did not go to purgatory.

They weren’t in heaven and they weren’t in hell. If you don’t want to believe it is Purgatory, fine. I know lots of Catholics who also deny it. It’s all speculation anyway. Remember, you asked, “if I could repent without being saved…” And that was my answer.

 

[Michael16]

I’m happy to see your reply, Johan and thank you very much for your thoughtful questions. It’s quite refreshing to see a Protestant ask questions rather than dismiss us out of hand.

That being said; I’ll address the human will and grace question first.

Imagine grace as a tugging in the soul; drawing us to God’s Will. When we assent to this tugging, grace infuses us with the strength to stay steadfast in doing His Will. When this steadfast assent occurs, sin and temptation bounces off the soul.

Think of the verse: I can do all things in Him Who strengthens me.

Grace strengthens the human will to abide in God’s Will; I hope I’m making sense to you.

Of course, as a human with free will, I can refuse this grace and follow the inclination to sin that wounds us from original sin.

But: The crucial thing to remember is that we have the free will to make that choice.

As for the good works question: Yes. Part of our justification before God is our doing of good works. Think of the verse in which Our Lord tells us that all those who prophesy, cast out demons, et cetera call out to Jesus and Jesus tells them: “ I do not know you evil doers… “ and then goes on to say that only those who do the Father’s Will shall enter Heaven.

I hope this explanation helps you to understand.

To address the Dead in our sins verse.

God drew away from His people in the OT because the vast majority performed the rituals and lived according to the letter of the Law without the spirit of the Law in their hearts; thus their sacrifices went for nothing because God wants the heart. Living by the spirit of the Law requires an interior conversion of the heart that trains the soul in the interior disposition to follow God’s Will in truth.

Thus, Saint Paul rightly admonishes that faith apart from works justifies. Now, we read Apart; not alone. Key distinction that Protestant apologists and theologians overlook. This, we see that Saint Paul, especially when you look at his teaching that doers of the Law are justified; shows us in plain reading that faith and works justify. Not faith alone.

I hope you’re seeing my point in this.

 

[De_Maria]

I may have already responded to this, but I didn’t remember seeing it.

De_Maria:

Find the term “free gift” in Scripture

Roman’s 5:15,16,18

Romans 5:15, 16 the word translated as free gift is charisma.
In Romans 5:18, the word translated as “free gift” is “eis”. Which means “for”.

The word free is not there. And charisma means “anointing”.

“But not as the offence, so also is the free gift…but the free gift is of many offences unto justification…”
even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

That is a Protestant Bible reading which adds to the Word of God.

Did you have to merit your sin nature from the old Adam? Likewise do you have to merit your new creation in the new Adam? …so asks/points out Paul.

Sin nature is another false Protestant term. We call it, “fallen nature”. And it was Adam who merited it. Let’s say that your Dad and Mom had a quadrillion dollars before you were born. They spent it all and lost it in the stocks and for whatever reason, they now have zero. How much do you inherit? Did you merit that “zero” amount?

That’s what happened when Adam and Eve fell from grace. They did not have their primordial justice to pass down to us. They had original sin.

I see the Douay Rheims translation does not use the word free here.

Because it’s not there.

You also did not have to merit any Jubilee " freedoms" or debt freedoms.

What does that have to do with our discussion? Are we talking about salvation? Or are we talking about finances?

 

[mcq72]

How much do you inherit? Did you merit that “zero” amount?

Agree, and why I asked if you didn’t merit that zero amount from the first Adam why would you also not merit the quadrillion from the second Adam?

That is a Protestant Bible reading which adds to the Word of God.

Not sure about that…no manuscripts have free?

What does that have to do with our discussion? Are we talking about salvation? Or are we talking about finances?

Lol…both…i mean is the term ransom, propitiation, “paid the price” foreign to our ears ? Jubilee is just thrown in there by me thinking it was a prototype.

 

[mcq72]

Sin nature is another false Protestant term. We call it, “fallen nature”

Interesting, yet I think I say fallen nature much more often than sin nature…not sure the terms are mutually exclusive.

 

[mcq72]

Christ came to bring sinners to repentance and then to save them.

Not sure…first repent of what ?

I look at it that He commands us to be saved, reconciled even believing in Him for it, because He says so. We repent of unbelief in such reconciliation/ salvation/ forgiveness…So to me repent means change from unbelief to belief, and belief means salvation…it is belief that I am personally saved, justified by the blood of the Lamb.

So I don’t get this repent stuff, like clean up your act, then I will save you that some teach. Is that what you mean?

 

[De_Maria]

Agree, and why I asked if you didn’t merit that zero amount from the first Adam why would you also not merit the quadrillion from the second Adam?

Do we become His child before or after Baptism in the washing of regeneration?

Not sure about that…no manuscripts have free?

If you find one, let me know.

Lol…both…i mean is the term ransom, propitiation, “paid the price” foreign to our ears ? Jubilee is just thrown in there by me thinking it was a prototype.

[/QUOTE]
Yeah. But He didn’t pay the price in order for us to sit around and do nothing. He gave us an example to follow.

1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

Sin nature is another false Protestant term. We call it, “fallen nature”

Interesting, yet I think I say fallen nature much more often than sin nature…not sure the terms are mutually exclusive.

In my opinion, sin nature comes from the idea that we are “totally depraved”. I believe this idea was commonly shared by Calvin and Luther, although it is attributed to Calvin most frequently.

 

[De_Maria]

Not sure…first repent of what ?

Really?

I look at it that He commands us to be saved,

So, when He says, “Repent!” You read it, “Be saved!” Do you do that throughout the entire Bible. Just decide you don’t like the word being used and substitute another one?

Have you looked up what repent means?

re·pent
/rəˈpent/
Learn to pronounce
verb
feel or express sincere regret or remorse about one’s wrongdoing or sin.
“the priest urged his listeners to repent”
synonyms: feel remorse for, regret, be sorry for, rue, reproach oneself for, be ashamed of, feel contrite about, wish that one had not done something; More
view or think of (an action or omission) with deep regret or remorse.
“Marian came to repent her hasty judgment”
ARCHAIC
feel regret or penitence about.
“I repent me of all I did”

reconciled even believing in Him for it, because He says so. We repent of unbelief in such reconciliation/ salvation/ forgiveness…So to me repent means change from unbelief to belief, and belief means salvation…it is belief that I am personally saved, justified by the blood of the Lamb.

Takes a lot of Scripture twisting to come to that conclusion.

Repent means to repent of your sins and turn to God. Scripture nowhere says, “I’ll save you so that you can turn to God.” God expects repentance for our sins, first. If not, no salvation will follow.

So I don’t get this repent stuff, like clean up your act, then I will save you that some teach. Is that what you mean?

That’s what Christ means. That’s what the Church has means. It is astounding that Protestants have got the message of the Gospel, so twisted.

 

[mcq72]

Really?

Yes, really, repent of what, specifically?

Go down the list of ten commandments, not being nice to my mother the other day, speeding the other day when late for work?

That’s what Christ means.

So clean up your act then He will save you?

How clean do I have to be ? How perfectly must I repent, change my mind?

The good news is that He says come as you are, sinner and all, but repent of not coming to me as such.

“I will clean you up, I will cover up your nakedness…repent of sewing and putting on fig leaves, for they are stench in my nostrils”

Such is not against the definition of repent.

Repent of not so much sinning, but of the real problem, being a sinner by nature, thru fallen nature, missing the mark.

So, the biggest sin of all is blaspheming the Holy Ghost, who convicts of sin (nature), judgement and righteousness. It is saying no to the gospel. It is saying no to the drawing of the Father to the Son. The biggest sin is saying no to His salvation, not any breaking of ten commandments, which show symptoms of real problem.

No, we both agree one must repent to be saved, and agree that even such repentance is by grace as is the faith associated with it.

This all started over difference as to when one is born again. I say only new birth can produce a saving utterance that Jesus is Lord…I am saying God responds immediately to a call for salvation, even to one repenting of their unbelief and changes the person, who then gladly follows the Lord, even in baptisms.