'Sola Caritas' Trumps 'Sola fide'

[mcq72]

In my opinion, sin nature comes from the idea that we are “totally depraved”. I believe this idea was commonly shared by Calvin and Luther, although it is attributed to Calvin most frequently

Ok…not sure…scripture says “by nature we were children of wrath”…but fallen nature nor sin nature as terms I don’t think are in scripture.

As to total depravity partly agree but am not at all read up on it…how about this, there is something good in us if we are able to see our total depravity in spiritual things? I mean otherwise are we only partially fallen?

If i am not mistaken please include Augustine with some of this total depravity talk.

 

[mcq72]

Yeah. But He didn’t pay the price in order for us to sit around and do nothing. He gave us an example to follow.

Correct. And glad we agree Christ paid the ransom, the price, even propitiated…fully. Perhaps why some don’t mind translating such grace as a free gift, though gifts are usually “free” anyways…perhaps some writer translator wanted to make sure no one sneaked a little credit on themselves.

And yes, we don’t sit around, in fact some suggest we become slaves of our new Lord.

Do we become His child before or after Baptism in the washing of regeneration?

I have been saying before, generally speaking. We only baptize believers in Christ, and if believers they are already a child of God, even part of ecclessia. We are already obeying our new Master in baptisms.

Perhaps it is like a calf who is purchased by a new owner. It is His. He paid for it in full. He takes it home (church?) and brands it, as the seal. The branding changes nothing, save the benefits of the seal. The seal signifies the earlier purchase.

 

[De_Maria]

Yes, really, repent of what, specifically?

Go down the list of ten commandments, not being nice to my mother the other day, speeding the other day when late for work?

Lol. Are you being serious? Sin is transgression of the Law. Therefore, you repent of all things you have done in violation of the Ten Commandments. What, you think you can pick and choose which sins you repent of and which you don’t?

So clean up your act then He will save you?

That’s correct.

How clean do I have to be ? How perfectly must I repent, change my mind?

You must be sincere. God will judge your heart. If you’re pretending so well, that you even fool yourself, God will not be fooled.

The good news is that He says come as you are, sinner and all, but repent of not coming to me as such.

Neh. That’s the lie the Protestants teach.

“I will clean you up, I will cover up your nakedness…repent of sewing and putting on fig leaves, for they are stench in my nostrils”

Such is not against the definition of repent.

You are twisting the Word of God to your own destruction.

Repent of not so much sinning, but of the real problem, being a sinner by nature, thru fallen nature, missing the mark.

Nothing wrong with that. But the most important thing is to repent of the sins you have committed and make up your mind, not to sin again.

So, the biggest sin of all is blaspheming the Holy Ghost, who convicts of sin (nature), judgement and righteousness. It is saying no to the gospel. It is saying no to the drawing of the Father to the Son. The biggest sin is saying no to His salvation, not any breaking of ten commandments, which show symptoms of real problem.

True.

No, we both agree one must repent to be saved,

Your definition of repent, is false.

and agree that even such repentance is by grace as is the faith associated with it.

Yep.

This all started over difference as to when one is born again.

At Baptism.

I say only new birth can produce a saving utterance that Jesus is Lord…

The Catholic Church has always Taught that one must cry out to Jesus to be saved. Therefore, grace gives us the faith to produce the saving utterance that Jesus is Lord. And those who do so and are Baptized, will be given the gift of the Holy Spirit, which washes us of sins and makes us new creatures in the image of Christ.

I am saying God responds immediately to a call for salvation, even to one repenting of their unbelief and changes the person, who then gladly follows the Lord, even in baptisms.

You can say whatever you want. We go by the Teachings of Jesus Christ passed down through the Catholic Church.

 

[De_Maria]

Ok…not sure…scripture says “by nature we were children of wrath”…but fallen nature nor sin nature as terms I don’t think are in scripture.

Agreed.

As to total depravity partly agree but am not at all read up on it…how about this, there is something good in us if we are able to see our total depravity in spiritual things? I mean otherwise are we only partially fallen?

Nope. We don’t agree with total depravity. The Church Teaches that all men are seeking God. Even the pagans. Sort of like the song, “looking for love in all the wrong places.” We are born with a fallen nature, but it is still a basically good nature since it is a nature which was originally made in the image of God.

Now, look at this verse.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

You guys read this and say, “You don’t have to do righteous deeds to be justified.”
But that’s not what it says. It proves that before justification, we are already doing righteous deeds.

Not by works of righteousness which we have done,

If i am not mistaken please include Augustine with some of this total depravity talk.

Neh. That’s Protestants twisting his words the way they twist Scripture.

 

[mcq72]

Lol. Are you being serious? Sin is transgression of the Law. Therefore, you repent of all things you have done in violation of the Ten Commandments. What, you think you can pick and choose which sins you repent of and which you don’t?

I only asked a question, and you assume i mean not think of or repent of sins committed. Indeed you agreed when I said the bigger problem is not breaking laws but that we do so because of a fallen nature, and we must repent of not availing of the remedy, the Cross and new life in Him.

Neh. That’s the lie the Protestants teach.(come as you are, sinner and all, but repent of not coming to me as such).

perhaps you misunderstand . When I say “come as you are” to Christ, it is restricted to the nature that we are, which is fallen. We do not raise ourselves to an unfallen state then approach Him. It is also coming with repentant heart, even a broken heart over our dilemma, in face of His goodness. I certainly do not suggest come as we normally are, with a haughty spirit and proud heart…indeed we are to be broken over our defualt nature.

“a contrite and humbled heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.”

The parable is clear, He takes us off the street and sits us down at the banquet, and changes our garments. (there are other verses that says he also cleans us inside out and gives new nature).

We also have God not pleased with Adam and Eve’s self covering their nakedness with leaves…(they did not come as they were)… God clothed with animal skins, shedding blood to do so.

And David asks the Lord to create in him a clean heart.

So when one says “clean up your act” to approach initial salvation I disagree if it means clean up ourselves, for He cleans us. If you mean clean up as be broken over one’s dirtiness because of the Spirit convicting OK, for such brokenness is a change already in right direction, taking us to the well of washing.

The Church Teaches that all men are seeking God.

yes and no. indeed “seek and ye shall find” but “no man seeks after God” at least not the true God, hence we seek and make our own Gods.

basically good nature

I would not call seeking and making our own gods coming from a " basically good nature" but purely a fallen nature. To call seeking God in our own fashion good is semi pelagian.

It proves that before justification, we are already doing righteous deeds.

understand we can do righteous deeds, they just don’t justify.

I mean Jesus said parents know how to give good things to their children. ( even Philistine parents )

No one is saying we cant do good, or that we are not made in His image. We are only saying in terms of changing fallen spiritual nature, that Christ has to fix that totally. Otherwise why would we have to totally die in baptism, as Christ totally died ?

 

[mcq72]

Neh. That’s Protestants twisting his words (Augustine’s on total depravity) the way they twist Scripture.

Excerpts from short one page article:

https://www.apuritansmind.com/arminianism/depravity-augustine-and-pelagius/

“Rather, it was that the Reformation witnessed the ultimate triumph of Augustine’s doctrine of grace over the legacy of the Pelagian view of man.”

“in Semi-Pelagianism there remains a moral ability within man that is unaffected by the Fall. We call this an “island of righteousness” by which the fallen sinner still has the inherent ability to incline or move himself to cooperate with God’s grace.”

“For Augustine man can no more move or incline himself to God than an empty glass can fill itself. For Augustine the initial work of divine grace by which the soul is liberated from the of sin is sovereign and operative. To be sure we cooperate with this grace, but only after the initial divine work of liberation.
He argued that fallen man still has a free will ( liberium arbitrium ) but has lost his moral liberty ( libertas )”

“That one percent is the “little something”, ( island of righteousnes in fallen nature, semi Pelagian), Luther sought to demolish because it removes the sola from sola gratia and ultimately the sola from sola fide.”

So as i have stated before, perhaps the adding of “free” to “free gift” of salvation by translators, though not in Greek manuscripts, even the adding of sola’s, is to offset prevailing semi pelagianism prevalent in those times…that 1 percent that says i am good and can help God reform myself because i am only partially fallen spiritually speaking…doctrine even prevalent today, even in some P churches.

Again, talking of initial justification, initial change …

No one is saying we ourselves do nothing. In another sense oft forgotten, on the other end of spectrum, it is not free but costs everything, and really we are led to our death, of the carnal man…now willingly…it cost Christ’s life , and then even ours…we go where we once would not…but all by being led by the Spirit , in grace and winsome love.

 

[De_Maria]

I only asked a question, and you assume i mean not think of or repent of sins committed…

Soooo, we agree that Jesus is talking about repenting of our sins?

perhaps you misunderstand . When I say “come as you are” to Christ, it is restricted to the nature that we are, which is fallen…

Ok.

We do not raise ourselves to an unfallen state then approach Him. It is also coming with repentant heart, even a broken heart over our dilemma, in face of His goodness. I certainly do not suggest come as we normally are, with a haughty spirit and proud heart…indeed we are to be broken over our defualt nature.

And our sins and committed to doing His will and to submit to Him and call Him Lord. All this before we are justified in the washing of regeneration. Do we agree?

“a contrite and humbled heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.”

Amen!

The parable is clear, He takes us off the street and sits us down at the banquet, and changes our garments. (there are other verses that says he also cleans us inside out and gives new nature).

Nope. He invites us. He calls us to the banquet. And those who have not prepared themselves for the banquet and yet attend, are kicked out.

We also have God not pleased with Adam and Eve’s self covering their nakedness with leaves…(they did not come as they were)… God clothed with animal skins, shedding blood to do so.

Because they were denying their sin. They had not repented, yet.

And David asks the Lord to create in him a clean heart.

But first, he repented.

2 Samuel 12:13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said unto David, The Lord also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

So when one says “clean up your act” to approach initial salvation I disagree if it means clean up ourselves, for He cleans us.

He cleans us perfectly. But we must clean ourselves the best we can before we attend:

Matthew 22:10-13 New International Version (NIV)
10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, the bad as well as the good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12 He asked, ‘How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?’ The man was speechless. 13 “Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

You can try it your way. But it won’t be a pretty picture.

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d

If you mean clean up as be broken over one’s dirtiness because of the Spirit convicting OK, for such brokenness is a change already in right direction, taking us to the well of washing.

I mean begin to wash. Begin to do the Lord’s will. Unless you do His will, you won’t get into heaven.

yes and no.

Lol! I’m not asking you to agree. I’m stating a fact.

indeed “seek and ye shall find” but “no man seeks after God” at least not the true God, hence we seek and make our own Gods.

All men are seeking the true God. But Satan can intercept many and fool them.

Mark 4:15Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them.

I would not call seeking and making our own gods coming from a " basically good nature" but purely a fallen nature.

You made up a straw man and set it up so that you could agree with it. I follow the infallible Teaching of God’s Church.

To call seeking God in our own fashion good is semi pelagian.

Neh. That’s another word that Protestants don’t understand. The Catholic Church condemned semi pelagianism centuries ago. In fact, if anything, it is Luther who revived it when he began to claim that a man could proclaim himself saved.

[understand we can do righteous deeds, they just don’t justify.

Correct.

I mean Jesus said parents know how to give good things to their children. ( even Philistine parents )

Correct.

No one is saying we cant do good, or that we are not made in His image.

Yes, Protestants say that all the time.

We are only saying in terms of changing fallen spiritual nature, that Christ has to fix that totally. Otherwise why would we have to totally die in baptism, as Christ totally died ?

In order to be allowed into heaven. See the difference between the Old and New Testaments described in Heb 12.

 

[De_Maria]

Excerpts from short one page article:

https://www.apuritansmind.com/arminianism/depravity-augustine-and-pelagius/

“Rather, it was that the Reformation witnessed the ultimate triumph of Augustine’s doctrine of grace over the legacy of the Pelagian view of man.”

“in Semi-Pelagianism there remains a moral ability within man that is unaffected by the Fall. We call this an “island of righteousness” by which the fallen sinner still has the inherent ability to incline or move himself to cooperate with God’s grace.”

That’s what I said. Puritans are Protestants. They have twisted what St. Augustine was teaching to fit their theology.

There are Catholic websites where you can get the undistilled, pure teaching of St. Augustine. This one you have provided, is junk.

 

[mcq72]

That’s what I said. Puritans are Protestants. They have twisted what St. Augustine was teaching to fit their theology.

There are Catholic websites where you can get the undistilled, pure teaching of St. Augustine. This one you have provided, is junk.

That could very well be, that things get twisted, disputing all things to the last iota.

There is no undistilled teaching of Augustine, save from reading his entire works, and then even studying all who have studied him.

Things don’t happen in a vacuum, and I lay some of the blame on the necessity for sola’s and free on the CC of that time. It sounds very reasonable that some blame goes to some Pelagian strand of thought creeping back into church…and it is normal for churches to say " not my church" just as it is normal for some to twist things to their destruction and others to rebel period.

 

[De_Maria]

That could very well be, that things get twisted, disputing all things to the last iota.

There is no undistilled teaching of Augustine, save from reading his entire works, and then even studying all who have studied him.

Things don’t happen in a vacuum, and I lay some of the blame on the necessity for sola’s and free on the CC of that time. It sounds very reasonable that some blame goes to some Pelagian strand of thought creeping back into church…and it is normal for churches to say " not my church" just as it is normal for some to twist things to their destruction and others to rebel period.

I guess you’re mostly right. But I don’t think you factored in that the Catholic Church is protected from error in Doctrine, by God. Infallible! Yeah!

 

[mcq72]

Nope. He invites us. He calls us to the banquet. And those who have not prepared themselves for the banquet and yet attend, are kicked out.

Well yes and no. Correct the parable does not say whether garments are supplied , only that proper attire was to be worn.

Some suggest that as in other ancient writings custom was for prince to supply attire to his banquet.

Others suggest that attire is representative of holiness for sure and we differ perhaps on just how one prepares themselves, that is just how do we put on His righteousness, or show it forth…but regardless we are not be hypocrites, or found without holiness, just as in the parable of the 10 virgins, we are to be found with and in the Holy Spirit.

He cleans us perfectly. But we must clean ourselves the best we can before we attend:

I don’t know, sounds like vanity…like do i wash my hands before entering the shower.

I would rather you mean indeed He cleans perfectly , and stay close to him always , even daily , vigilant for any spot cleaning, even buffeting the flesh.

All men are seeking the true God.

Why, because they are only partially fallen ? Indeed they seek to fill the void that the fall creates, that God used to occupy, but that is not the same as seeking God. And why does scripture say no man seeks after God? Where is my straw man?

In order to be allowed into heaven.(totally die in baptism)

Yes but why totally if some spiritual part of us is good ?

 

[mcq72]

See the difference between the Old and New Testaments described in Heb 12.

of course there is a difference in where we can now approach vs old testament, both here and now and in the afterlife. yet holiness and awe are still part of both testaments. i mean a lot of Christians trembled also when they heard about Ananias and Sapphira.

 

[De_Maria]

Well yes and no.

Do you ever let your yes be yes and your no be no?

Correct the parable does not say whether garments are supplied , only that proper attire was to be worn.

That’s not the point. The parable doesn’t say that Our Lord had to dress him. Whether the garments are provided or not. The individual had to cooperate and do the work of putting them on.

I don’t know, sounds like vanity…like do i wash my hands before entering the shower.

You’re reaching. If God tells you to wash your hands and you wash your hands, that’s not vanity. That’s obedience.

I would rather you mean indeed He cleans perfectly , and stay close to him always , even daily , vigilant for any spot cleaning, even buffeting the flesh.

This isn’t about what YOU prefer. It’s about what God wills.

Why, because they are only partially fallen ?

Because God has put His Law in every man’s heart.

Indeed they seek to fill the void that the fall creates, that God used to occupy, but that is not the same as seeking God.

I perceive this as your straw man right here. But it must be that total depravity doctrine is so ingrained in you, it’s the air you breathe.

And why does scripture say no man seeks after God?

Those Scriptures speak of wicked men. Notice that in every case, they are contrasted with righteous men that please God. For example:

Psalm 14:4Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the Lord.

Who are my people?

Psalm 7:11God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.

Who are the righteous?

It’s astounding to me that Protestants never remember the verses that mention the men that God loves but only remember those which seem to say that the whole world is wicked.

Where is my straw man?

See above.

Yes but why totally if some spiritual part of us is good ?

As you said, it is good, but fallen. God can make it perfect. What? You don’t want that? You want to take a bath in plain water alone, when God can wash you in the grace of the Holy Spirit?

 

[De_Maria]

of course there is a difference in where we can now approach vs old testament, both here and now and in the afterlife. yet holiness and awe are still part of both testaments. i mean a lot of Christians trembled also when they heard about Ananias and Sapphira.

The point is, Christ fixes our natures in Baptism so that we may walk on Mount Sion with the spirits of men made perfect. That’s what we’re talking about. No one has denied fear and awe. In fact, Catholics are generally chastised by Protestants because we believe in “working out our salvation in fear and trembling”.

 

[Johan]

Imagine grace as a tugging in the soul; drawing us to God’s Will. When we assent to this tugging, grace infuses us with the strength to stay steadfast in doing His Will. When this steadfast assent occurs, sin and temptation bounces off the soul.

I will begin by thanking you for your civil tone in your replies to me (which is far from the norm in discussions like this one). However, since my beliefs are based on the Scriptures alone, I inevitably have to ask the question: “does this characterization correspond to what the Bible says?” And I cannot recall any passage or verse in the Bible where grace is described in the manner you just did.

Think of the verse: I can do all things in Him Who strengthens me.

So if this should be taken to mean that we may cease to sin, why does virtually no Christian claim to have done so? I would really like to get a straightforward answer to that question. And the context of that saying (in Phil. 4:13) is rather about Paul being able to adapt to all kinds of situations while working in His service. I cannot find any claim in his letters of having stopped sinning.

Grace strengthens the human will to abide in God’s Will; I hope I’m making sense to you.

And now from theory to practice: have you yourself stopped sinning altogether? If not, why not?

Of course, as a human with free will, I can refuse this grace and follow the inclination to sin that wounds us from original sin.

But: The crucial thing to remember is that we have the free will to make that choice.

I still cannot find anything about “free will” in the Scriptures. To me, it seems like a secular humanist notion brought into Catholic theology without any consideration for what the Word of God actually says on this matter.

As for the good works question: Yes. Part of our justification before God is our doing of good works. Think of the verse in which Our Lord tells us that all those who prophesy, cast out demons, et cetera call out to Jesus and Jesus tells them: “ I do not know you evil doers… “ and then goes on to say that only those who do the Father’s Will shall enter Heaven.

What is interesting about that quote is that the accused persons try to defend themselves by appealing to all the miracle works they have performed. Does not sound like sola fide-ists to me. Also, it is hardly a repudiation of “once saved always saved” since Christ explicitly says that He never knew them. Finally, the context strongly indicates that He is referring to the judgment of the false prophets mentioned in Matt. 7:15 (it is quite plausible that a prophet-wannabe would refer to his/her alleged prophecies in his/her defense). Moreover, I do not find the notion of justification in this passage, so I really do not follow your reasoning. God justifies the ungodly who trust Him, rather than those who continually do good works.

 

[De_Maria]

Sorry to interrupt. You guys are having a good discussion.

…since my beliefs are based on the Scriptures alone, I inevitably have to ask the question: “does this characterization correspond to what the Bible says?” And I cannot recall any passage or verse in the Bible where grace is described in the manner you just did.

Psalm 34:8O taste and see that the Lord is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.

Psalm 42:1 As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. 2 My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?

1 Peter 2:2 like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation,

I know that the word, “grace” is not in there, but it is by God’s grace that we are drawn to Him.

John 6:44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So if this should be taken to mean that we may cease to sin, why does virtually no Christian claim to have done so?

Because we don’t boast in our works. It is God who judges whether we are free of sin. And, the Catholic Church does canonize those whom she knows have proven that God has made their spirit perfect.

I would really like to get a straightforward answer to that question. And the context of that saying (in Phil. 4:13) is rather about Paul being able to adapt to all kinds of situations while working in His service. I cannot find any claim in his letters of having stopped sinning.

And yet he knew that a crown awaited him in heaven. Only those who are pure can enter heaven.

1 Thessalonians 3:13To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

cont’d

 

[mcq72]

Those Scriptures speak of wicked men

Absolutely, which we all were before we were made righteous. That is the context, if you read the whole chapter(s).

Notice that in every case, they are contrasted with righteous men that please God. For example:

Absolutely, there have always been two classes of people since the fall, seed of Satan, and seed of Eve. One group walked in darkness the other in light. The light being His Word, His promises, operating under grace and mercy and blood thru faith. But none are born righteous, else mercy and grace wouldn’t be needed for the righteous.

So no straw man and yes to my total depravity air if it sees salvation as
God’s work, and no to your semi Pelagian view that the righteous partially save themselves…which can lead to a pride in self doing just as surely as strict predestination can lead to pride in being picked.

As you said, it is good, but fallen. God can make it perfect. What? You don’t want that?

Well a broken down car is no good to me, even a Rolls for it is broken,fallen. And the car doesn’t even know it. It looks in the mirror every morning and says, “Cool, I’m a Rolls”.

So no, in that we are so broken we don’t want fixing because we think there is nothing wrong, or bury any such thoughts deep down and amuse ourselves with life.

Do you want to take credit for any holy conviction that reflects that something is wrong and we need fixing?..who writes on our hearts or even in nature any such truth? Do you then want to take credit
because you can read rightly where once we read wrongly or partially?

Yes, God can make perfect.He is in the restoration business, even of broken down Rolls’s, which we all are in His eyes.

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d

And now from theory to practice: have you yourself stopped sinning altogether? If not, why not?

You’re asking him to commit the sin of presumption. God alone judges our soul.

Trent VI
CHAPTER XII.

That a rash presumptuousness in the matter of Predestination is to be avoided.

No one, moreover, so long as he is in this mortal life, ought so far to presume as regards the secret mystery of divine predestination, as to determine for certain that he is assuredly in the number of the predestinate; as if it were true, that he that is justified, either cannot sin any more,…

I still cannot find anything about “free will” in the Scriptures. …

That’s because Protestants want to see Catholic Doctrines verbatim in Scripture. But they don’t hold the same requirement to their own inventions. Here is free will, described.

Deuteronomy 4:30When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the Lord thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;

Do you see the word, “if” before “thou turn”? That’s free will.

Matthew 6:33But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Do you see the word, “seek”. That is free will.

Romans 6:13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

You see how St. Paul acknowledges that we have the authority to yield either to righteousness or to wickedness.

…Does not sound like sola fide-ists to me.

There were no sola fideists in those days. Sola fide is an invention of the Protestants used to justify their rebellion against God.

Also, it is hardly a repudiation of “once saved always saved” since Christ explicitly says that He never knew them.

Indeed it is, since they called Him, Lord and thus, are like the Protestants who presumptively claim salvation because they call Jesus Lord and claim they have faith. But it is God who judges both faith and works and not the individual.

Finally, the context strongly indicates that He is referring to the judgment of the false prophets mentioned in Matt. 7:15 (it is quite plausible that a prophet-wannabe would refer to his/her alleged prophecies in his/her defense).

He is referring to anyone who claims that they are saved because of either their faith or their works.

Moreover, I do not find the notion of justification in this passage, so I really do not follow your reasoning.

That is because Protestants don’t understand the true notion of justification. They believe it is like throwing a white blanket of snow over dung. When it is indeed, the washing away of said dung and the infusing of grace producing a new man.

God justifies the ungodly who trust Him, rather than those who continually do good works.

On the contrary, look at Titus 3:5. You read it as, “you don’t have to do good works to be justified.” But the verse says, “not by the good works WE HAVE DONE.” Thus proving that God justifies those who have done good works before they are regenerated.

 

[mcq72]

The point is, Christ fixes our natures in Baptism so that we may walk on Mount Sion with the spirits of men made perfect.

Yes agreed, the curtain of the holy of holies torn in two from Calvary. So now it is just not the high priest who can enter, but we are all finally priests and can boldly enter in, having the one after Melchizadek with us…just as those who were once held in Paradise have now entered Heaven.

Yet, in some fashion men in the old testament could be declared righteous, justified, even perfect (Job).

In fact, Catholics are generally chastised by Protestants because we believe in “working out our salvation in fear and trembling”.

The critique is for working out your justification in such fashion as opposed to working out ones sanctification.