'Sola Caritas' Trumps 'Sola fide'

[mcq72]

Provide one example of someone in Scripture declaring himself saved by faith alone.

Well, does anyone in scripture declare themselves born again? Does anyone declare themselves indwelt by the Holy Spirit? I see some “we” but not I.

I understand your demand on the future final " saving", as when we are finally glorified in heaven before His judgement seat. Clearly however the use of the term “save” can be used in past tense and still be legit, not just the present and future. But no, don’t know of anyone who has been fully glorified, the final reality of being saved, except Christ, and He hasn’t come back yet in such a state, nor has any saint.

Yet disagree with you if you think it can’t be used by us at all in the past tense as when we are first converted, even made a new creature, becoming a Christian , a disciple of Christ. Disagree further if you think Christ does not communicate with us personally of such a past saving, as well as a present and future saving.

I think I understand the usage of the word “hope” to be preferred by Catholics instead of “I know” in terms of our salvation and final destination.

When people including Catholics and some protestants are asked if they are going to heaven “hope” is usually used, followed by citing good character (good person) and religious activity ( go to church etc.) and only rarely is hope in Christ ( faith aspect) mentioned, ( for indeed our hope is in Christ, the hope of future glory.).

Am still going to find scriptural support for legitimacy for a Christian to say they are saved, though you add the term “by faith alone”, which is not usually said that way ( we normally just say " I have been saved" or “I am saved, born again.” just as you might say “I am Catholic” not “I am Catholic by faith and works”.

 

[Taxx]

Yes I see you apply the same illustrations to your understanding. There were 95 thesis. And Luther recognized the clergy in Rome were currupt. Which is still true today . sexual sin is just the tip showing.

 

[Taxx]

even if people do stand on the bible alone, the problem is when they interpret it alone.

Romans 10: 8-9-10. Romans 8: the spirit bears wittiness with our spirit.

 

[fhansen]

Romans 10: 8-9-10. Romans 8: the spirit bears wittiness with our spirit.

I’ve been on non-Catholic Christian forums where people disagreed with each other on the meaning of Scripture, all claiming to be Spirit-led

 

[Crocus]

citing good character (good person) and religious activity ( go to church etc.) and only rarely is hope in Christ ( faith aspect) mentioned

This is a misrepresentation of Catholic belief. Insulting.

 

[mcq72]

It’s boasting. Because God has not revealed to you, your personal salvation. If He has, then you are privileged. But I don’t have to believe that He has. Nor does anyone else.

“And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.” Luke 7:50

Could this woman say she had personal knowledge from Jesus that she was was saved by faith, even “safe”?

“Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.” Acts 2:47

Would it be wrong for such new converts to say they were one of the saved ones now?

“For the word of the cross, to them indeed that perish, is foolishness; but to them that are saved, that is, to us, it is the power of God.” 1Cor. 1:18

Preaching of the cross saves.

“By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. 1 Cor.15:2”

Saying you are saved, even by faith, does not exclude pereseverance. Of course you are in trouble if you don’t believe or give such faith up.

“For we are the good odour of Christ unto God, in them that are saved, and in them that perish.” 2 Cor.2:15

Present tense “are”.

“Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together in Christ, (by whose grace you are saved,)” Eph 2:5

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-” Eph 2:8ball:

“Not by the works of justice, which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the laver of regeneration, and renovation of the Holy Ghost;” Titus 3:5

Can’t see why anyone who has been born again, baptized can’t say he is presently saved ( perseverance understood).

Again, one can properly say they are saved in past and present tense. We are not restricted to only future tense, nor restricted by understood “if”'s .

I mean I can say I am presently a living human being, irregardless but understanding that to maintain such status i must continue to breathe, and drink and eat etc…

Just as one can say they are presently saved, a child of God, irregardless but understanding the maintenance of our faith walk in Christ.

Lord willing still to come a few verses where Jesus by the Holy Spirit tells we are saved, like the woman in Luke 7:50

 

[mcq72]

This is a misrepresentation of Catholic belief. Insulting.

I did not represent Catholic belief nor Protestant belief…I only posed what I have been told by “people”, Catholic and Protestant alike, not by their respective institutions.

I believe the usage of the term “hope” is proper for Catholics to say, versus someone “knowing for sure” in their eternal destiny, I believe that is proper representation of Catholic teaching, without getting into hoping in what it, or assurance in what.

 

[Crocus]

I did not represent Catholic belief nor Protestant belief…I only posed what I have been told by “people”, Catholic and Protestant alike, not by their respective institutions.

Then why insert it at all within your argument?

 

[mcq72]

Then why insert it at all within your argument?

Fair question…I believe it fit the context of the last few posts with De Maria…I believe he cited the pitfalls of fallacy of “faith alone” and saying one is “saved”, as many evangelicals do…perhaps I was showing pitfall of hope in faith and works , that many, even P’s, can only mutter out works when first asked about justification or future abode.

 

[De_Maria]

On the contrary, any Catholic, priest or otherwise, who commits sin, does it against the infallible Teaching of the Church.

Whereas, Protestant has mainlined so many sins that they no longer consider them evil. Divorce and remarriage (i.e. adultery), contraception, some approve of abortion, homosexuality and much more.

 

[De_Maria]

Well, does anyone in scripture declare themselves born again? Does anyone declare themselves indwelt by the Holy Spirit? I see some “we” but not I.

Thank you. You have confirmed my point. The reason they don’t boast about any of that is because it would be the sin of presumption.

I understand your demand on the future final " saving", as when we are finally glorified in heaven before His judgement seat. Clearly however the use of the term “save” can be used in past tense and still be legit, not just the present and future. But no, don’t know of anyone who has been fully glorified, the final reality of being saved, except Christ, and He hasn’t come back yet in such a state, nor has any saint.

That is because OSAS is also a false doctrine.

Yet disagree with you if you think it can’t be used by us at all in the past tense as when we are first converted, even made a new creature, becoming a Christian , a disciple of Christ. Disagree further if you think Christ does not communicate with us personally of such a past saving, as well as a present and future saving.

You agreed above, that no one in Scripture does those thing.
I provided Scriptures which state definitively that we should not boast about ourselves being saved because God is our Judge.

So, essentially, you’re showing that you disagree with Scripture.

I think I understand the usage of the word “hope” to be preferred by Catholics instead of “I know” in terms of our salvation and final destination.

Yep.

When people including Catholics and some protestants are asked if they are going to heaven “hope” is usually used, followed by citing good character (good person) and religious activity ( go to church etc.) and only rarely is hope in Christ ( faith aspect) mentioned, ( for indeed our hope is in Christ, the hope of future glory.).

Basically, it is assumed by Catholics, that we do everything in imitation, in obedience and for the love of Christ.

Am still going to find scriptural support for legitimacy for a Christian to say they are saved, though you add the term “by faith alone”, which is not usually said that way ( we normally just say " I have been saved" or “I am saved, born again.” just as you might say “I am Catholic” not “I am Catholic by faith and works”.

Show me.

 

[fhansen]

“And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.” Luke 7:50

Could this woman say she had personal knowledge from Jesus that she was was saved by faith, even “safe”?

She may well have had that direct revelation from Him in that moment, yes.

 

[Johan]

She may well have had that direct revelation from Him in that moment, yes.

We also received the promise from Christ (e.g., John 3:16) that all who believe in Him will be saved. So we do not have to receive a personal revelation to have the assurance of salvation.

 

[Tommy999]

I am not a Bible scholar or theologian like some of you appear to be, but this verse has helped me to feel as though Christians can have a reasonable assurance of salvation if we have faith and live for Christ, love our neighbor as ourselves, love the Lord with all our hearts, mind, and strength, repent of our sins, and strive to live according to the Ten Commandments and Jesus’ teachings. While realizing that salvation should be viewed as an ongoing process (I am saved (initial conversion), I am being saved (sanctification, working out my salvation day by day with God’s help), and I will be saved (death in this world/life in the next), this verse has helped me not become paranoid about the status of my salvation:

I John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

 

[fhansen]

I agree, “a reasonable assurance…”

 

[mcq72]

I John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Indeed, that you know that you know that you know that you are saved, in Christ Jesus. And many who say this now once hated such presumption. by others, until they themselves were born again.

 

[mcq72]

She may well have had that direct revelation from Him in that moment, yes.

We have in this dispensation direct revelation from the Holy Spirit, who bears witness to our regenerated spirit, that we are His and He is ours…we have the seal from the Holy Spirit that we have been purchased, the indwelling and Holy Spirit baptism a downpayment on future glory.

 

[mcq72]

Thank you. You have confirmed my point. The reason they don’t boast about any of that is because it would be the sin of presumption.

Sorry, the time to keep things to ourselves, like when Jesus told those he had healed or forgiven sins to tell no one, has long been over. So whatever He means to us, done for us, we are to declare, even with words.

No, you miss my point. Just because a person doesn’t say in scripture they are born again or indwelt is not because of avoiding presumption. It is understood to be part of having received saving faith, of being " saved".

By your reasoning , and ironically I would agree, that it would be presumption to think one was born again or indwelt by the Spirit because they have been baptized, even as an infant…is that what you are saying, do not declare even boast that Christ has made you born again and given you the Spirit in baptism? …I have been baptized, why can’t I boast of a current reality?

 

[fhansen]

We have in this dispensation direct revelation from the Holy Spirit, who bears witness to our regenerated spirit, that we are His and He is ours…we have the seal from the Holy Spirit that we have been purchased, the indwelling and Holy Spirit baptism a downpayment on future glory.

Right…

 

[fhansen]

We also received the promise from Christ (e.g., John 3:16) that all who believe in Him will be saved. So we do not have to receive a personal revelation to have the assurance of salvation.

And that requires a subjective self-assessment of our personal level of faith first of all-and we know from Scripture that not all who think they’re heaven-bound will necessarily end up there. Aside from that we must balance such verses with those that admonish, warn, urge caution and vigilance and perseverance and tell believers outright what must be done: obey the commandments, be holy, be perfect, do good works, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, love God and neighbor, be meek, be pure of heart, remain in Christ, refrain from sin, live in the Spirit, invest one’s talents, generally with loss of place in the kingdom at stake.