'Sola Caritas' Trumps 'Sola fide'

[mcq72]

Aside from that we must balance such verses with those that admonish, warn, urge caution and vigilance and perseverance and tell believers outright what must be done: obey the commandments, be holy, be perfect, do good works, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, love God and neighbor, be meek, be pure of heart, remain in Christ, refrain from sin, live in the Spirit, invest one’s talents, generally with loss of place in the kingdom at stake.

Understand but not so much balance as negating but as in what follows. Of course when a baby is born and takes his first breath and then even a big yelping cry to announce he is alive for the world to see…I would not say you have to “balance that out” with “but he must continue with breaths and start to eat and sleep, …and watch out when he crosses the street, etc.,etc.”… these things are understood and should not diminish his crying out that he indeed is alive.

 

[fhansen]

Understand but not so much balance as negating but as in what follows. Of course when a baby is born and takes his first breath and then even a big yelping cry to announce he is alive for the world to see…I would not say you have to “balance that out” with “but he must continue with breaths and start to eat and sleep, …and watch out when he crosses the street, etc.,etc.”… these things are understood and should not diminish his crying out that he indeed is alive.

I’m not sure exactly what you mean here but I only know that God doesn’t want us to remain infants, and He doesn’t bother admonishing us unless for the possibility of our falling back away from Him and into sin again, forfeiting our justified state all over. In any case we can have a strong level of assurance, and yet still guarded as we work out our salvation with He who works in us. He’s trustworthy and true while we remain the wildcard in it all.

 

[TULIPed]

What do you make of this verse @fhansen? (asked in a non-argumentative, and more pensive tone)

“I am the good shepherd, and I know mine and mine know me”

It’s an interesting verse in the context of assurance of salvation I think. Is it possible to know Christ, and not know that you know Him?

 

[fhansen]

I think one problem is that we cannot predict who will persevere and who will not, whose names are written in the Book of Life and whose are not. This is God’s province to know with 100% certainty. For us we’re simply to trust Him and keep our nose to the grindstone: striving, persevering, obeying, continuing to walk with Him-and then let the just Judge render His determination at the end of the day.

Yes, we know Him and can have a strong degree of assurance in light of His goodness and our level of fruits produced that serve as evidence of our faith, hope, and love. The Church warns against vain over-confidence, however. Anyway I really think the Church’s position, quoting John of the Cross, a 16th century believer, sums it up best and puts things in their proper perspective:
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

 

[De_Maria]

Sorry, the time to keep things to ourselves, like when Jesus told those he had healed or forgiven sins to tell no one, has long been over. So whatever He means to us, done for us, we are to declare, even with words.

1. There’s never been a rule to keep things to ourselves.
2. There’s always been the requirement of humility. It is a virtue and necessary for salvation.
3. You are contradicting Scripture.

1 Corinthians 4:2Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

No, you miss my point. Just because a person doesn’t say in scripture they are born again or indwelt is not because of avoiding presumption. It is understood to be part of having received saving faith, of being " saved".

People still receive saving faith and don’t go around boasting of it.

By your reasoning , and ironically I would agree, that it would be presumption to think one was born again or indwelt by the Spirit because they have been baptized, even as an infant…is that what you are saying, do not declare even boast that Christ has made you born again and given you the Spirit in baptism? …I have been baptized, why can’t I boast of a current reality?

You can say that you’re baptized. But whether the Spirit of God is in you, God alone will know. Even the great St. Joan of Arc would not dare to claim knowledge of her salvation:

If I am not, may God place me there; if I am, may God so keep me. I should be the saddest in all the world if I knew that I were not in the grace of God.

 

[De_Maria]

Understand but not so much balance as negating but as in what follows. Of course when a baby is born and takes his first breath and then even a big yelping cry to announce he is alive for the world to see…I would not say you have to “balance that out” with “but he must continue with breaths and start to eat and sleep, …and watch out when he crosses the street, etc.,etc.”… these things are understood and should not diminish his crying out that he indeed is alive.

He’s not boasting that he’s alive because of his faith or works. He’s merely doing what children do. Men who are saved don’t go around boasting about it. They go around doing the Lord’s bidding.

 

[De_Maria]

What do you make of this verse @fhansen? (asked in a non-argumentative, and more pensive tone)

If I may.

"I am the good shepherd,

God is our caretaker.

and I know mine

God knows who loves Him and, left without saying, who doesn’t.

and mine know me"

And those who love God, know what He requires of them. Another Scripture says:

1 John 2:3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

Possibly not for you. But this is an insurmountable dilemma for most Protestants that I talk to, because they deny the ability to keep the Commandments. In so doing, by the logic of this verse, they deny the ability to know God.

It’s an interesting verse in the context of assurance of salvation I think. Is it possible to know Christ, and not know that you know Him?

Yes. But that’s more likely to occur to a pagan. Like, St. Cornelius. He knew Christ and proved it by keeping the Commandments. But he did not know that he knew Christ because he had not heard the Gospel.

I think, in terms of a Protestant-Catholic dialogue, the question that should be asked are:

If you know Christ, should you brag that you know that you are saved?

The answer for us, is no. We believe that salvation is contingent on obeying Christ. We don’t decide if we’ve been obedient. He does. You can see this explicitly described in Matt 7:21-23.

 

[mcq72]

He’s not boasting that he’s alive because of his faith or works. He’s merely doing what children do. Men who are saved don’t go around boasting about it. They go around doing the Lord’s bidding.

Lol, the kingdom of heaven is of such (children)… out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh…proclaiming the good news, even testifying of it, not in third party, is the Lord’s bidding.

Why would such testifying percolate some enough to call it boasting or bragging disparagingly?

 

[mcq72]

You can say that you’re baptized. But whether the Spirit of God is in you, God alone will know.

So baptism is not necessarily effectual ? The Catholic church teaches one is born again at baptism, even infants, not withstanding future confirmation.

I have never heard a priest say you better make sure you were instilled with the Spirit at your infant baptism, even if one is sewing their wild oats.

You sound evangelical.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

He’s not boasting that he’s alive because of his faith or works. He’s merely doing what children do. Men who are saved don’t go around boasting about it. They go around doing the Lord’s bidding.

Lol, the kingdom of heaven is of such (children)… out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh…proclaiming the good news, even testifying of it, not in third party, is the Lord’s bidding.

An infant’s cry is boasting? In that case, why don’t Protestants believe in infant Baptism? If the infant knows that God gave him life, then his cry can be accepted as a confession of faith.

Why would such testifying percolate some enough to call it boasting or bragging disparagingly?

I think you’ve jumped from your infant metaphor to something else here. And, this question has already been answered. Disparagement is not the issue. It is claiming to know that which they don’t. It is putting themselves in God’s place. God alone knows who is saved.

 

[De_Maria]

So baptism is not necessarily effectual ?

Do you believe Scripture?

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

The Catholic church teaches one is born again at baptism, even infants, not withstanding future confirmation.

Yep. Providing faith is present. The faith of the Church makes up for a middling faith. But if there is no faith at all, if someone is being forced to be baptized, there is no rebirth, in my opinion.

I have never heard a priest say you better make sure you were instilled with the Spirit at your infant baptism, even if one is sewing their wild oats.

In the Catholic Church, all the requirements of Baptism are explicitly taught in the RCIA. But the time someone approaches Baptism, they should have all been cleared up.

You sound evangelical.

Evangelical in the true sense. Those who call themselves “Evangelical” and oppose the Catholic Church, have given themselves a contradictory name. The True Gospel is only taught by the Catholic Church.

 

[TULIPed]

why don’t Protestants believe in infant Baptism?

Presbyterians, and Reformed Christians in general do accept and affirm paedobaptsim.

 

[Johan]

And that requires a subjective self-assessment of our personal level of faith first of all-and we know from Scripture that not all who think they’re heaven-bound will necessarily end up there.

I cannot recall that Jesus ever speaks of a certain “level” of faith. He simply says that all who believe in Him will be saved. I don’t understand why you would want to make it more complicated than that. Any interpretation that indicates that not all who believe in Him will be save does not “balance” His words, but contradicts them.

 

[fhansen]

Jesus speaks of a faith that can move mountains, and of those of little and those of great faith. Either way we assess whether or not we have a faith that can please God, and some actually think that faith, alone, pleases Him. So the assessment can be quite subjective, with some thinking they’re pleasing God while they’re not with others pleasing Him without even be aware of it as per Matt 25:31-46, pleasing Him by the acts they did, for “the least of these”. The Church in her wisdom makes it all very uncomplicated: “At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love.” To the extent we agree with that, we understand the gospel.

And any balancing has nothing to do with interpretation but with statements made about the possibility of being branches grafted in and later cut back off, tasters of the heavenly gift who later reject it, those who fail to persevere or do good works or invest their talents or keep oil in their lamps or put Christ’s words into practice or keep the commandments or refrain from sin. The list goes on.

 

[Johan]

Jesus speaks of a faith that can move mountains, and of those of little and those of great faith.

Yes, but never in relation to salvation. It is not the quality or the strength of our faith that is salvific, but the object of our faith, i.e., Christ.

Either way we assess whether or not we have a faith that can please God, and some actually think that faith, alone, pleases Him.

The act of salvation is not a matter of pleasing God. He saved us by grace, through faith, without works. Now that He has saved us, He also wants us to walk in the good works that He has prepared for us.

So the assessment can be quite subjective, with some thinking they’re pleasing God while they’re not with others pleasing Him without even be aware of it as per Matt 25:31-46, pleasing Him by the acts they did, for “the least of these”.

“The least of these” is a reference to His children, i.e., our brothers and sisters in faith (cf. Matt. 10:42). His children are recognized by their love for one another, just like a tree is recognized by its fruit.

The Church in her wisdom makes it all very un complicated: “At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love.”

But that is not uncomplicated at all, because that makes our salvation contingent on our own merit. On the contrary, Jesus says that those who believe in Him and the One who has sent Him will not be judged at all (John 5:24).

To the extent we agree with that, we understand the gospel.

The Gospel is Christ, or less tersely:

Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. (1 Cor. 15:1-6)

That is the Gospel: Christ died for our sins and was raised again.

 

[De_Maria]

“And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.” Luke 7:50

Could this woman say she had personal knowledge from Jesus that she was was saved by faith, even “safe”?

Yes.

“Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.” Acts 2:47

Would it be wrong for such new converts to say they were one of the saved ones now?

Is there any record that they went around boasting that they were saved?

“For the word of the cross, to them indeed that perish, is foolishness; but to them that are saved, that is, to us, it is the power of God.” 1Cor. 1:18

Preaching of the cross saves.

It saves those who listen and put the words into practice.

“By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. 1 Cor.15:2”

Saying you are saved, even by faith, does not exclude pereseverance. Of course you are in trouble if you don’t believe or give such faith up.

Amen!

“For we are the good odour of Christ unto God, in them that are saved, and in them that perish.” 2 Cor.2:15

Present tense “are”.

Yep.

“Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together in Christ, (by whose grace you are saved,)” Eph 2:5

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-” Eph 2:8ball:…

Romans 10:5 Moses writes about the righteousness that comes from [the] law, “The one who does these things will live by them.” 6 But the righteousness that comes from faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will go up into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 or ‘Who will go down into the abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8 But what does it say?

“The word is near you,
in your mouth and in your heart”

(that is, the word of faith that we preach),

Again, one can properly say they are saved in past and present tense. We are not restricted to only future tense, nor restricted by understood “if”'s …

1. The individuals who were told by Jesus that they were saved, are saved. This falls under the Catholic Doctrine of Private Revelations. If you have a private revelation which you believe is from God, you must obey Him.
2. There is a broad line between acknowledging the truth and boasting about things which are not absolutely known.

Yes, we acknowledge we have been saved, but we work out our salvation in fear and trembling. We don’t presume that we will continue or have continued in the grace of God.

Ben Sira 1:30 Do not exalt yourself lest you fall and bring dishonor upon yourself; For then the Lord will reveal your secrets and cast you down in the midst of the assembly. Because you did not approach the fear of the Lord, and your heart was full of deceit.

1 Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

 

[mcq72]

Is there any record that they went around boasting that they were saved?

Are you suggesting they were disobedient in declaring His work in them, of professing such before men?

Yes, we acknowledge we have been saved,

Very well, you boast also.

The individuals who were told by Jesus that they were saved, are saved. This falls under the Catholic Doctrine of Private Revelations. If you have a private revelation which you believe is from God, you must obey Him.

Anyone who has been saved, born again, that declares Jesus as Lord and Savior, has had a private revelation from God, even being led by the voice of the Spirit, of the Shepherd. They indeed obey, and out of the abundance of their heart they declare His work and goodness, in them and for anyone who has an ear to hear, an eye to see.

There is a broad line between acknowledging the truth and boasting about things which are not absolutely known.

Agree, you can’t proclaim what you absolutely don’t know or have experienced, or believe, only what is abundantly in your heart.

 

[De_Maria]

Are you suggesting they were disobedient in declaring His work in them, of professing such before men?

I asked a simple question. Did they go around boasting they were saved?

Very well, you boast also.

Nope. That’s not boasting.

Anyone who has been saved, born again, that declares Jesus as Lord and Savior, has had a private revelation from God, even being led by the voice of the Spirit, of the Shepherd.

Nope. Very few people have private revelations. If you’re claiming you’ve had a private revelation, you need to obey God’s voice. But, the rest of us must obey the Church which God placed here to Teach His Word, infallibly.

They indeed obey, and out of the abundance of their heart they declare His work and goodness, in them and for anyone who has an ear to hear, an eye to see.

Obedience would entail humility.

Matthew 23:12And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

Agree, you can’t proclaim what you absolutely don’t know or have experienced, or believe, only what is abundantly in your heart.

??? You seem to be arguing against this, above. So? Have you changed your mind?

 

[fhansen]

Yes, but never in relation to salvation. It is not the quality or the strength of our faith that is salvific, but the object of our faith, i.e., Christ.

While Jesus spoke of varying levels of faith and while we can and are expected to grow in the virtues, I don’t necessarily disagree with you here except for theologies that rely on faith alone to the exclusion of any works being required to accompany that faith.

The act of salvation is not a matter of pleasing God. He saved us by grace, through faith, without works. Now that He has saved us, He also wants us to walk in the good works that He has prepared for us.

Faith, itself, is pleasing to God as Heb 11:6 indicates. Any way that we move towards Him and obey His will is delightful to Him, because it’s good for us to do so and because we can always do otherwise, refuse to respond to His calling and ultimately refuse salvation. Everything we are and have and do including that which contributes to our salvation: faith, works, or any disposition, are gifts of grace, and yet gifts we can reject.

“The least of these” is a reference to His children, i.e., our brothers and sisters in faith (cf. Matt. 10:42). His children are recognized by their love for one another, just like a tree is recognized by its fruit.

No, that’s a very non-literal re-interpretation. The least of these are the poor and marginalized.

But that is not uncomplicated at all, because that makes our salvation contingent on our own merit. On the contrary, Jesus says that those who believe in Him and the One who has sent Him will not be judged at all (John 5:24).

It’s very simple; it’s the gospel, the object of the New Covenant, and the filfulfillment of the Greatest Commandments which are the very definition of justice or righteousness for man. If faith doesn’t blossom into hope, and, most importantly love, then it’s served no purpose; it’s dead. As Paul said in 1 Cor 13: “…if I have a faith that can move mountains but have not love, I am nothing”. Or Augustine: "Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing."
continued:

 

[fhansen]

That is the Gospel: Christ died for our sins and was raised again.

And if we believe in that and hold to it we will have entered a relationship or communion with God within and through which we are justified and then will work out our salvation with He who works in us as we maintain and grow more yet in that state of justice, as we grow more in love of God and neighbor to put it another way. At the end of the day, God judges how well we’ve done with what we’ve been given in terms of revelation/knowledge, grace, time and opportunity with more expected from those given more.

God wants, God covets our participation and increasing “ownership” in it all even if it all flows from His grace. Because His grace can be resisted. It’s not either God or us; it’s God and us, with us either fulfilling our potential as unique expressions of Himself or us refusing to go along with His plan. It’s always been a question of the human will and how it aligns with God’s will, from Adam on. And that’s what the centuries of God’s patiently working in and through man has been about, to bring him to a point where he might now more readily choose the light, choose good over evil, choose Him when we finally truly meet and come to know Him.
"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3