'Sola Caritas' Trumps 'Sola fide'

[Wannano]

Johan:

That is the Gospel: Christ died for our sins and was raised again.

And if we believe in that and hold to it we will have entered a relationship or communion with God within and through which we are justified and then will work out our salvation with He who works in us as we maintain and grow more yet in that state of justice, as we grow more in love of God and neighbor to put it another way. At the end of the day, God judges how well we’ve done with what we’ve been given in terms of revelation/knowledge, grace, time and opportunity with more expected from those given more.

God wants, God covets our participation and increasing “ownership” in it all even if it all flows from His grace. Because His grace can be resisted. It’s always been a question of the human will and how it aligns with God’s will, from Adam on. And that’s what the centuries of God’s patiently working in and through man has been about, to bring him to a point where he might now more readily choose the light, choose good over evil, choose Him when we finally truly meet and come to know Him.
"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3

At first glance what you presented here sounds right. I am interested in how personal relationship and Communion with God is so personal and intimate that it does have the aspect of a private divine revelation. (Referencing a post above this one between @DeMaria and @mcq72.)

 

[fhansen]

I am interested in how personal relationship and Communion with God is so personal and intimate that it does have the aspect of a private divine revelation. (Referencing a post above this one between @DeMaria and @mcq72.)

That’s a good question. Aquinas calls the supernatural gift of faith a dim foretaste of the Beatific Vision or immediate knowledge of God.
"For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." 1 Cor 13

Now “mystical” experiences, which would include the private revelation referred to in Church teachings regarding ones salvation, are on a whole deeper and higher level of profundity. But related nonetheless.

 

[mcq72]

“Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me”.

Knowing Jesus is better put as personal…“private” sounds a bit theologically stuffy… I mean dining with someone is quite intimate…knowing someone by their voice is being quite familiar with them…

This is not like knowing all about Jesus factually (Son of God, died on Calvary 2000 years ago for our sins, is coming again, will be judged by Him), like knowing all about George Washington, but unlike Washington, we can have a personal encounter, even relationship, with Jesus, even thru His Word and thru Holy Spirit.

He cites more than a few times that not knowing Him is problematic, more so than our sins…only by personally knowing Him can our sins be forgiven, and even overcome

He is alive…He is a Spirit, as we are also with which to fellowship together, Spirit to quickened spirit.

 

[fhansen]

Knowing Jesus is better put as personal…“private” sounds a bit theologically stuffy… I mean dining with someone is quite intimate…knowing someone by their voice is being quite familiar with them…

I agree, it does sound a bit stuffy. But also a lot of these kinds of terms have a quite ancient usage so they don’t always resonate so well to the modern or untrained ear.

Either way the term private revelation refers to something even deeper than what you’re speaking of; it’s knock your socks off, maybe you can’t remain standing kind of ineffably profound experience that God sometimes gives for His purposes

 

[mcq72]

Yes, thank you. I would add that there are some generic utterances we hear from the Lord, that is common to all who open up the door to Him, and there are some that are meant specifically for us…kind of like the middle east tradition (in scripture also?) of the host writing something specific and special known only to the guest, on the back of a stone, who turns it over and reads it, and relishes in that unique, special bond with the host. Like we are told we will be given a new name in heaven, something indicative of that bond.

 

[mcq72]

Obedience would entail humility.

Matthew 23:12And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

To be saved means one has gone through the biggest abasement possible, death, to self, as represented in baptism, to the greatest exaltation, of becoming a child of God.

??? You seem to be arguing against this, above. So? Have you changed your mind?

No…I believe when one is born again they absolutely come to know it, and that His grace and goodness are abundant in the heart.

 

[De_Maria]

No…I believe when one is born again they absolutely come to know it, and that His grace and goodness are abundant in the heart.

Ok, well no need to keep going in circles on this matter. This is a good stopping point. The Catholic Church Teaches that God alone knows who is saved and who isn’t. And that proclaiming oneself saved is the sin of presumption.

Council of Trent VI
CHAPTER XII.

That a rash presumptuousness in the matter of Predestination is to be avoided.

No one, moreover, so long as he is in this mortal life, ought so far to presume as regards the secret mystery of divine predestination, as to determine for certain that he is assuredly in the number of the predestinate; as if it were true, that he that is justified, either cannot sin any more, or, if he do sin, that he ought to promise himself an assured repentance; for except by special revelation, it cannot be known whom God hath chosen unto Himself.

CANON XIV.-If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema.

CANON XV.-If any one saith, that a man, who is born again and justified, is bound of faith to believe that he is assuredly in the number of the predestinate; let him be anathema.

CANON XVI.-If any one saith, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end,-unless he have learned this by special revelation; let him be anathema.

Thanks for the discussion.

 

[mcq72]

Thanks for the discussion.

Likewise…I can only add that having full assurance to one being born again, being forgiven, indwelt, a new creation, as a past and present reality is irrespective of OSAS or final predestination views. Otherwise like telling someone who has just been baptized or confirmed or coming out of the confessional not to presume themselves born again, indwelt, forgiven etc at that moment.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

Thanks for the discussion.

Likewise…I can only add that having full assurance to one being born again, being forgiven, indwelt, a new creation, as a past and present reality is irrespective of OSAS or final predestination views.

Uh, ok. So that sounds like a different animal. So, you boast about being saved, but you don’t pretend that you know that you are going to end up in heaven.

How does that work? At what point do you suddenly lose that full assurance to one being born again, being forgiven, indwelt, a new creation?

Otherwise like telling someone who has just been baptized or confirmed or coming out of the confessional not to presume themselves born again, indwelt, forgiven etc at that moment.

Have you ever heard this joke?

Dear Lord,
So far I’ve done all right.
I haven’t gossipped,
haven’t lost my temper,
haven’t been greedy, grumpy, nasty, selfish, or overindulgent.
I’m really glad about that.

But in a few minutes, God,
I’m going to get out of bed.
And from then on,
I’m going to need a lot more help.

As far as being born again in Baptism. We could simply rewrite it and say:

But in a few minutes, God,
I’m going to leave the Baptismal font.
And from then on,
I’m going to need a lot more help.

Do you see what I mean?

 

[mcq72]

So, you boast about being saved,

Well you use the word " boast, where I use testify, declare knowingly.

but you don’t pretend that you know that you are going to end up in heaven.

Well, I don’t pretend that I don’t still have the old man to contend with, that would rip me from the Shepherd in an instant if it were not for the Grace’s in the new man. Personally I am between eternal security OSAS and still the need for vigilance and abiding in Him. One must avoid presumption yet avoid offending the faith in His work, which can be an equal sin.

At what point do you suddenly lose that full assurance to one being born again, being forgiven, indwelt, a new creation?

I don’t know, hasn’t happened yet. I suppose one would have to approximate the unpardonable sin.

But in a few minutes, God,
I’m going to leave the Baptismal font.
And from then on,
I’m going to need a lot more help.

Do you see what I mean?

Yes, fine line between walking the walk and having faith in the one who began the whole walk for us, and resting in His promise to complete it.

I mean where is the joy in fretting remaining alive, especially after the miracle of birth ?

But yes, abiding in Him will keep the new man well and the old man dead.

 

[De_Maria]

Well you use the word " boast, where I use testify, declare knowingly.

Ok, great. So you no longer use the word “boast”. Good, I think we’re moving closer.

Well, I don’t pretend that I don’t still have the old man to contend with, that would rip me from the Shepherd in an instant if it were not for the Grace’s in the new man. Personally I am between eternal security OSAS and still the need for vigilance and abiding in Him. One must avoid presumption yet avoid offending the faith in His work, which can be an equal sin.

Excellent! I think we’re moving towards the assurance of hope.

I don’t know, hasn’t happened yet. I suppose one would have to approximate the unpardonable sin.

Not sure what you mean. But, as long as it isn’t boasting, I think it fits the Catholic Doctrine of confident hope.

2090 When God reveals Himself and calls him, man cannot fully respond to the divine love by his own powers. He must hope that God will give him the capacity to love Him in return and to act in conformity with the commandments of charity. Hope is the confident expectation of divine blessing and the beatific vision of God; it is also the fear of offending God’s love and of incurring punishment.

Yes, fine line between walking the walk and having faith in the one who began the whole walk for us, and resting in His promise to complete it.

I mean where is the joy in fretting remaining alive, especially after the miracle of birth ?

But yes, abiding in Him will keep the new man well and the old man dead.

Well, I think we’re suddenly in lockstep. Who woulda thunk it?

 

[dopeyMS]

So baptism is not necessarily effectual ? The Catholic church teaches one is born again at baptism, even infants, not withstanding future confirmation.

I have never heard a priest say you better make sure you were instilled with the Spirit at your infant baptism, even if one is sewing their wild oats.

You sound evangelical.

The bible teaches we are born again at baptism and a baptism of sprinkling at that.

Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. Eze. 36:25,26

The sacrament stands the test of time.

 

[dopeyMS]

I cannot recall that Jesus ever speaks of a certain “level” of faith. He simply says that all who believe in Him will be saved. I don’t understand why you would want to make it more complicated than that. Any interpretation that indicates that not all who believe in Him will be save does not “balance” His words, but contradicts them.

Jesus said the Roman centurion had GREAT faith implying there are levels of faith i.e. levels of sanctification. Some people are just more spiritual than others.

 

[dopeyMS]

And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. Matt. 10:1-8

Jesus sent out the twelve with the power of God to cast out devils, preach the kingdom and raise the dead - and Judas the goat was part of the twelve!

There is no such creature as Once Saved Always Saved. lol

 

[De_Maria]

I cannot recall that Jesus ever speaks of a certain “level” of faith. He simply says that all who believe in Him will be saved.

Jesus speaks of a faith that can move mountains, and of those of little and those of great faith…

I don’t recall Jesus saying that all who believe in Him will be saved. @Johan, please provide the quote.

And, Jesus frequently rebukes those whom He describes as having “little faith”.

In addition, Scripture says the following:

1 Corinthians 13:2And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

As I read then, if even someone with great faith is not guaranteed salvation, what does that mean to those of little faith? Here’s what it means and it is from Jesus’ parable:

Matt 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. 26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: 27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. 28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. 29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. 30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[mcq72]

The bible teaches we are born again at baptism and a baptism of sprinkling at that.

Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. Eze. 36:25,26

The sacrament stands the test of time

Correct, just that we were discussing of the proclaiming, testifying of such a cleansing, birth, and indwelling with full assurance, even to utter that one is “saved”, even if only “initially”, beyond just “hoping”,…without presumption.

 

[mcq72]

There is no such creature as Once Saved Always Saved. lol

Yes, lol, then one is to presume people get saved a bunch of times?Like we commit mortal sins and fall out of grace till we confess and do penance…like absolutely no saint has gone his whole Christian walk with only venial sins?

While I always add addendums to OSAS, not a purist, certainlty there are some saints who persevered to the end perfectly, not needing saving again or falling out and then back into grace…

But I think I understand you possibly thinking OSAS negates present and future saving. I don’t think so, though it is called sanctification and glorification. Perhaps to the term designates new birth in Christ also and that one is only born again once, not many times. And born again is being “saved” as in intial saving, going from death to life, becoming a child of God.

Anyways there other aspects you disagree with. I just saw though that from linguistic point of view it is interesting as though we can be initially saved many times which of course we can’t hence the humor.

 

[mcq72]

Jesus speaks of a faith that can move mountains, and of those of little and those of great faith.

I think his point was that you either have saving faith or you don’t. Of course there are different giftings in the level of faith, but with same base level reward of eternal life with Him. Again also irrespective of those who claim being Christian but are not.

 

[fhansen]

Except those who claim being Christian are simply people who’ve assessed that they have saving faith.

 

[dopeyMS]

Correct, just that we were discussing of the proclaiming, testifying of such a cleansing, birth, and indwelling with full assurance, even to utter that one is “saved”, even if only “initially”, beyond just “hoping”,…without presumption.

Another classic example of those who claim to follow the bible and reject verse after verse after verse.

It should be we believe in protestantism alone not the bible alone.