'Sola Caritas' Trumps 'Sola fide'

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De_Maria said:
So, not by Baptism?
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No faith is not received by baptism. Baptism is the response of faith.
De_Maria said:
But by preaching. I assume a man is preaching, thus working. So, a human work is the means of your salvation?
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No. Christ is the means of my salvation. The preacher is doing a good work and his preaching is a means of grace, but it is the Word being preached that is “living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart” (Hebrews 4:12-13).
De_Maria said:
Because, if you claim that Baptism is a human work, then preaching is certainly so, as well.
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Baptism is something that is done to us, yes.
De_Maria said:
So, you basically, you’ve replaced Baptism with preaching. But Scripture says we are saved in Baptism.
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Scripture says a lot of things about salvation and baptism. Romans 10:9-10 says “if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.”
De_Maria said:
Yes, faith is by hearing. But faith does not automatically save.
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Neither does baptism. However, I would add that true faith does indeed unite the individual to Christ and is saving faith.
De_Maria said:
Except that Scripture says that salvation is something that we can do for ourselves, as well.
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It’s something we have a role in, but we can’t do for ourselves. It is only by the grace of God, otherwise we could boast. In any case, my point was only that faith is not “self-generated” as one poster claimed Protestants believe. I’ve never heard any Protestant teach that we “self-generate” faith.
De_Maria said:
What about the part in the middle? Who does that?

Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
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Certainly. As I said above, I have no reason to challenge the human side of persevering in faith. My point, once again, is that Protestants believe our faith begins and ends with Christ. There is no way that human beings can “self-generate” anything regarding salvation. It all begins and ends with God.
 
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mcq72 said:
It also says , " it pleased God, by the foolishness of our preaching, to save them that believe." 1 cor 1:21

The preacher works, we listen. Is that a work? Well so is breathing.

Yes there are several scriptures that say baptism saves, but more that says faith saves, apart from a righteous work.
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Is preaching a righteous work? Yes or no.
Yet why do we only baptize only those who already believe?
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Because salvation is conditional. Only those who believe and prove their faith by their works, will be saved.
Yes it says in one place believe and be baptized, and we all do that. One person does baptism to show forth justification, another to be justified. One person is baptized because they are a new creature in Christ, the other to become one. One person can claim Christ is Lord by the power of the Spirit, and through a quickened spirit, for sins have been washed in the blood thru faith. Another person can claim Christ as Lord in their flesh, believing their spirit still dead in trespasses and sin, until obedient to baptism.

No one rejects any of the said scriptures. We simply synthesize them differently, interpret them differently.
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So, basically, you subscribe to the private interpretation of the Word of God? Is that what you’re saying? All interpretatations are true. There is no absolute truth. There is your truth and everyone else’s. Is that what you believe?
 
ltwin said:
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De_Maria:
Where is love stated in the Protestant equation? You’re saying it here, but where is it in the traditions of the Protestants.
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Galatians 5:6 “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.”
Without faith we cannot be thus saved; for we cannot rightly serve God unless we love him. And we cannot love him unless we know him; neither can we know God unless by faith. Therefore, salvation by faith is only, in other words, the love of God by the knowledge of God; or, the recovery of the image of God, by a true, spiritual acquaintance with him. (John Wesley A Further Appeal to Men of Reason and Religion , I.3)
https://www.catalystresources.org/wesley-on-faith-love-and-salvation/
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De_Maria said:
But do Protestants consider it necessary for salvation? Yes or no?
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Yes. The fruit of the Spirit is love. Galatians 5:22. No love, no Spirit. No Spirit, no salvation.

At work. Will finish my response later.
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Thanks. First time I’ve heard that answer. I don’t see anything that would contradict Catholic Doctrine in that answer. Bravo!👍
 
You’re very close to the Catholic Church in your doctrine. Now, there’s this little matter of “not by righteous works”. Is preaching a righteous work?
 
De_Maria said:
So, basically, you subscribe to the private interpretation of the Word of God?
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Any interptetation contrary to the Spirit’s intent or revelation is " private".
De_Maria said:
Is that what you’re saying? All interpretatations are true. There is no absolute truth. There is your truth and everyone else’s. Is that what you believe?
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No and No and No and We all live by what we think or are persuaded to be true and yes.
 
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mcq72 said:
No, another classic example of the deluded thinking that a differing interpretation can only be due to rejection of certain scriptures.
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The verses from Ezekiel foreshadowing the new covenant promise clearly link baptism and the new birth just like the True Church has taught from the beginning.
 
dopeyMS said:
God grants faith to those that receive the body and blood of Christ in the sacrament. The faith of protestants if you want to call it that doesn’t even acknowledge this.
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Whatever. Just so long as you know that what you said below is incorrect.
dopeyMS said:
So I have to self-generate faith in myself in order to be justified which is just wrong on so many levels. It’s just backwards theology.
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The Catholic/Orthodox faith recognizes the principle of authority and how it goes all the way back to Christ and the apostles. The Protestant faith rejects this and is built on Luther or Calvin or a host of other deceivers like Darby or White or Smith.
 
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De_Maria said:
You’re very close to the Catholic Church in your doctrine. Now, there’s this little matter of “not by righteous works”. Is preaching a righteous work?
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It is a good work, but I fail to see your point. The preacher doesn’t save us. The Gospel of Christ saves us.
 
…and there are many false gospels that never save, never had the power to save and never will save.
 
dopeyMS said:
The Catholic/Orthodox faith recognizes the principle of authority and how it goes all the way back to Christ and the apostles. The Protestant faith rejects this and is built on Luther or Calvin or a host of other deceivers like Darby or White or Smith.
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You’re conflating two different senses of the word faith. Earlier, you were talking about justification. Now you’re contrasting theological systems.
 
dopeyMS said:
…and there are many false gospels that never save, never had the power to save and never will save.
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We’re not talking about false gospels. We are talking about the proclaimed Gospel of Christ, which Paul says “is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes” (Romans 1:16).
 
Do you believe that Christ is present in the Eucharist?

We’ll see real quick if you have faith or not.
 
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