'Sola Caritas' Trumps 'Sola fide'

[dopeyMS]

Anyways there other aspects you disagree with. I just saw though that from linguistic point of view it is interesting as though we can be initially saved many times which of course we can’t hence the humor.

Please take your ‘pet’ beliefs to another thread that is dedicated to ‘pet’ beliefs.

 

[dopeyMS]

I think his point was that you either have saving faith or you don’t. Of course there are different giftings in the level of faith, but with same base level reward of eternal life with Him. Again also irrespective of those who claim being Christian but are not.

So there are different levels of faith. Thanks for admitting that faith is more than a winning lottery ticket to the galactic mansion in the sky.

 

[TULIPed]

I don’t recall Jesus saying that all who believe in Him will be saved.

John 6:40

“For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

(Incidentally, one of my favorite Catholic hymns - brings tears to my eyes every time I hear it.)

 

[Johan]

I don’t recall Jesus saying that all who believe in Him will be saved. @Johan, please provide the quote.

Gladly. It is probably the most famous verse of them all.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever [πᾶς, lit. “all”] believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16)

 

[Johan]

Jesus said the Roman centurion had GREAT faith implying there are levels of faith i.e. levels of sanctification. Some people are just more spiritual than others.

It still does not follow that our salvation is dependent on a certain “magnitude” of faith. Whoever believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.

 

[ltwin]

If he called his movement “ catholic “, then he misrepresented the term.

You realize that all the early Protestants were baptized Catholics whose spirituality was formed in a deeply Catholic religious culture? Protestantism began as a reform movement within the Catholic Church. It was only later that confessional identities hardened and clear separations occurred.

 

[ltwin]

Correct. God’s love with the forgiveness of sin leads us to exercise faith in Christ i.e. 1Cor. 13. Love comes first and then faith.

We love because Christ first loved us. No problem here.

Protestants with their Sola Fide basically say that faith is the highest and that somehow leads to Justification and love is not even part of the equation.

Love, of course, is part of the equation. Jesus told us to love others. Loving God and other people is the essence of being a Christian.

So I have to self-generate faith in myself in order to be justified which is just wrong on so many levels. It’s just backwards theology.

Who says this? All the Protestant teachers I’ve sat under teach that faith is a gift from God that we receive by the Spirit and the Word. God gives us faith via the preaching of the Gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit (which also is where conviction of sin and the knowledge of our need for repentance comes from). When we place our faith in Christ, justification and regeneration and adoption are accomplished and we begin to walk in the process of ongoing sanctification.

Nothing in salvation is “self-generated.” All of salvation is 100% the work of God. In Hebrews 12, Jesus is called “the author and finisher of our faith”.

 

[Michael16]

Just because men fail in the practice of Church teaching, doesn’t prove that the Church is wrong.

As for the Spirit beating witness with your spirit: Look at all the different interpretations between the denominations. Then, compare that fact with the Church being united in her interpretation and teaching. Then tell me who’s spirit bears witness with the Spirit

 

[Michael16]

Here’s the thing: The Protestant movements were not reform movements. They were revolutions. If they were reform movements; they would have stayed within the Church and changed it from within.

They didn’t. They left and formed their own communities outside of the Church.

These verses paraphrase the truth of faith and works:

Jesus said: Do all the Commandments.

Jesus said: Only those who do the Father’s Will shall enter heaven.

Jesus said: Love God with all of your heart, mind, soul and strength and love others as you would yourself.

All these use verbs. Verbs are actions. Actions. Not believing alone. The highest Commandment is to love.

Saint Paul: If haven’t love; I am nothing.

Faith isn’t the end all and everything. It’s LOVE. Again we see that love is an action. Doing something; i.e. a work.

I all capped for emphasis.

 

[mcq72]

Another classic example of those who claim to follow the bible and reject verse after verse after verse.

No, another classic example of the deluded thinking that a differing interpretation can only be due to rejection of certain scriptures.

 

[Michael16]

It’s not deluded thinking, mcq. We take down your arguments time and time again using Scripture. You even quote Scripture verses backwards as an attempt to prove your point and then when pinned down; you accuse us of playing semantics.

I admire your faith and tenacity, mcq.

However: The rest of your tactics… Wow.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

I don’t recall Jesus saying that all who believe in Him will be saved. @Johan, please provide the quote.

Gladly. It is probably the most famous verse of them all.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever [πᾶς, lit. “all”] believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16)

John 6:40

“For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

(Incidentally, one of my favorite Catholic hymns - brings tears to my eyes every time I hear it.)

Thanks, both of you, for responding.

Now, does that mean that everyone who “claims” to believe in Christ, is counted in that number?

For example. I claim to believe in Christ. How do you know that my claim is sincere?

Let’s look at another, from Scripture. I suppose that calling Jesus, Lord, is a claim of faith in Him. But Matt 7:21 says:

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; …

So, this boils down to,

1. is the set of all people who claim to believe in Jesus
2. the same as the set of all people whom Jesus says believe in Him?
3. And who is the Judge of said faith? Is it the individual? Or is it Jesus?

 

[De_Maria]

It still does not follow that our salvation is dependent on a certain “magnitude” of faith. Whoever believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.

What happened to this fellow?

Matt 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. 29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. 30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I say that this fellow was given faith. But he didn’t exercise his faith and thus, in the end, his faith was taken away and given to others who had exercised their faith. And this fellow was cast into eternal punishment.

What is your take?

 

[De_Maria]

You realize that all the early Protestants were baptized Catholics

Yes.

whose spirituality was formed in a deeply Catholic religious culture?

Not true. A baptized Catholic does not make a deeply religious Catholic. It is possibly, the bare minimum. Frequently, a baptized Catholic, is merely a cultural Catholic. Even today, baptism is viewed by many, as entry into a club. They frequently baptize their children because of peer pressure. Not because of their love of God.

Protestantism began as a reform movement within the Catholic Church. It was only later that confessional identities hardened and clear separations occurred.

That may have been Luther’s stated intent. But he ended up turning it into a schism and a revolution which literally ripped apart the Body of Christ and as much of His Word as he thought he could get away with in order to usurp power from the Pope and Bishops.

We love because Christ first loved us. No problem here.

Ok.

Love, of course, is part of the equation.

Where is love stated in the Protestant equation? You’re saying it here, but where is it in the traditions of the Protestants.

Jesus told us to love others. Loving God and other people is the essence of being a Christian.

But do Protestants consider it necessary for salvation? Yes or no?

Who says this? All the Protestant teachers I’ve sat under teach that faith is a gift from God that we receive by the Spirit and the Word. God gives us faith via the preaching of the Gospel

So, not by Baptism? But by preaching. I assume a man is preaching, thus working. So, a human work is the means of your salvation? Because, if you claim that Baptism is a human work, then preaching is certainly so, as well.

in the power of the Holy Spirit … When we place our faith in Christ, justification and regeneration and adoption are accomplished and we begin to walk in the process of ongoing sanctification.

So, you basically, you’ve replaced Baptism with preaching. But Scripture says we are saved in Baptism. Yes, faith is by hearing. But faith does not automatically save.

Nothing in salvation is “self-generated.” All of salvation is 100% the work of God.

Except that Scripture says that salvation is something that we can do for ourselves, as well.

Jude 23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

James 5:20Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

1 Timothy 4:16Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

1 Corinthians 3:9For we are labourers together with God: …

In Hebrews 12, Jesus is called “the author and finisher of our faith”.

What about the part in the middle? Who does that?

Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

 

[TULIPed]

Where is love stated in the Protestant equation? You’re saying it here, but where is it in the traditions of the Protestants.

Greater love hath no man…

Desmond Doss - Wikipedia

Jim Elliot - Wikipedia

 

[Johan]

Now, does that mean that everyone who “claims” to believe in Christ, is counted in that number?

For example. I claim to believe in Christ. How do you know that my claim is sincere?

I don’t. Just like I don’t know if all Catholics who claim to keep the commandments of God are actually doing that. What John 3:16 means is that all who believe in Christ will be saved. Christ knows His sheep, and they know Him.

Let’s look at another, from Scripture. I suppose that calling Jesus, Lord, is a claim of faith in Him. But Matt 7:21 says:

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; …

This passage is in all probability referencing the false prophets mentioned in v. 15. It is quite natural to expect a prophet-wannabe to appeal to his/her miracle works (“did we not prophesy in your name” etc) to his/her defense. A sola fide-ist would rather say: “I trusted you for my salvation.”

So, this boils down to,

1. is the set of all people who claim to believe in Jesus
2. the same as the set of all people whom Jesus says believe in Him?
3. And who is the Judge of said faith? Is it the individual? Or is it Jesus?

It boils down to what I have already written, namely that those who believe in Him will be saved (without exception). Jesus did not come to judge our faith, but to save us through faith. Those who try to defend themselves by “didn’t we do this and that” apparently believe that their works justify them. Does not at all sound like Evangelicals to me.

 

[Johan]

What happened to this fellow?

Matt 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. 29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. 30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I say that this fellow was given faith. But he didn’t exercise his faith and thus, in the end, his faith was taken away and given to others who had exercised their faith. And this fellow was cast into eternal punishment.

What is your take?

I am satisfied by the interpretation of the renowned Lutheran scholar Joachim Jeremias, who took this parable to refer to how the scribes handled the Word of God. The wealth distributed to the servants refers to the knowledge of God. Some used it wisely by distributing it to others (by preaching the Gospel), some (the Jewish scribes) hid the Word, making it ineffective to themselves and others.

“Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.” (Luke 11:52)

 

[mcq72]

But Scripture says we are saved in Baptism.

It also says , " it pleased God, by the foolishness of our preaching, to save them that believe." 1 cor 1:21

The preacher works, we listen. Is that a work? Well so is breathing.

Yes there are several scriptures that say baptism saves, but more that says faith saves, apart from a righteous work.

Yet why do we only baptize only those who already believe? Yes it says in one place believe and be baptized, and we all do that. One person does baptism to show forth justification, another to be justified. One person is baptized because they are a new creature in Christ, the other to become one. One person can claim Christ is Lord by the power of the Spirit, and through a quickened spirit, for sins have been washed in the blood thru faith. Another person can claim Christ as Lord in their flesh, believing their spirit still dead in trespasses and sin, until obedient to baptism.

No one rejects any of the said scriptures. We simply synthesize them differently, interpret them differently.

 

[ltwin]

Where is love stated in the Protestant equation? You’re saying it here, but where is it in the traditions of the Protestants.

Galatians 5:6 “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.”

Without faith we cannot be thus saved; for we cannot rightly serve God unless we love him. And we cannot love him unless we know him; neither can we know God unless by faith. Therefore, salvation by faith is only, in other words, the love of God by the knowledge of God; or, the recovery of the image of God, by a true, spiritual acquaintance with him. (John Wesley A Further Appeal to Men of Reason and Religion , I.3)
https://www.catalystresources.org/wesley-on-faith-love-and-salvation/

But do Protestants consider it necessary for salvation? Yes or no?

Yes. The fruit of the Spirit is love. Galatians 5:22. No love, no Spirit. No Spirit, no salvation.

At work. Will finish my response later.

 

[mcq72]

You even quote Scripture verses backwards as an attempt to prove your point

Lol…not sure I have ever quoted scripture backwards, only forward…not even good at pig Latin.

And I was only responding to accusation of rejecting opposing text proofs, which we do not. Only reject your interpretation or synthesis with other texts.

then when pinned down; you accuse us of playing semantics.

Perhaps I have though dont recall using the word “semantics”… maybe “linguistics”, or “interpretation” and others use " hermeneutics".

I dont feel myself pinned down by your texts any more than you feel pinned down by mine.