'Sola Caritas' Trumps 'Sola fide'

[mcq72]

Someone certainly has to Teach the Word of God infallibly.

Now if we only had the Holy Spirit to do so. But we do don’t we.

Any church, magisterium, council must align with Him and His written word… as such conditional.

Jesus Christ is the one who appointed the Catholic Church for the job.

Yes, the Catholic church has met the conditions on many things and at times.

Beyond that, it is self judgement.

There is no proof of any such thing, you just made it up.

You are right. No head servant has ever succumb to any temptation of such authority…?

As it should be. Even our civil laws reflect God’s laws. That is why murder is against the law in this country.

Precisely…both our churches have ordained civil “murder” because they thought such unity was so ordered by God…indeed a binding.

 

[De_Maria]

No…just raising up an old Catholic “discussion”. ( balance of papal and council power).

That sounded more like an opinion. You may have stated that opinion in a previous discussion. That doesn’t give it any authority. It is simply, your opinion.

Jesus Christ gave St. Peter the Keys to bind and loose. Thus, it is by the authority of Jesus Christ that the Pope has authority over councils.

So true, in old times. Please tell me of a God breathed, post apostolic prophecy.

All you need to know is that God protects the Catholic Church from error.

John 16:13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Thus, the Catholic Church is the Teacher of God’s wisdom.

Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Like you, interpretation.

Lol! You have no clue how to answer these questions, do you? Don’t you realize that you just admitted that your answers are not exclusively right. Lol.

Do you just respond with answers that you think sound “cool”?

Perhaps right and perhaps fits with institutional salvation.

Lol! What are you talking about? I didn’t say that those who remained in mortal sin would be saved. Ha ha ha ha ha!

Well, we were speaking of Revelation, and the saints whose robes were washed by the blood of the Lamb.

So, basically, you have no idea. You’re defending something you don’t understand.

No, this does not make the most exclusive. Your definition of church is the most exclusive.

You don’t understand what you’re saying, do you? If you did, you could give me a reason why you believe our definition of church is more exclusive. We have shown you why it isn’t. But you simply keep repeating the words as though we will simply believe them if you don’t stop repeating them.

How nice of you…but wrong of you to exclude other churches being catholic on that.

The only universal Church is the Catholic Church. There is no other.

I would think so…cant have two definitions.

Lol! You can and we do.

Yes, per said church…

Per Jesus Christ (Matt 16:18-19; Matt 18:17; John 16:13)
Per Scripture (1 Cor 3:15; Eph 3:10)

unconditional…

Don’t know what you’re talking about there. There are several conditions for infallibility.

ORAR…but no such grace for other churches nor individials.

As can be seen by a simple gaze in their direction. 60, 000 denominations and counting.

 

[De_Maria]

Except that non-Catholic Christians don’t recognize the authority of the Catholic church

God gave you a solution. The fact that you deny and reject the solution is your own fault.

and the Catholic church no longer has the ability to enforce Catholicism on non-Catholic Christians.

God does, however. You’ll find that out in the end.

Claims of authority that isn’t recognized and isn’t enforceable isn’t really authority.

The authority is real. It is God’s.

Luke 10:16He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

 

[De_Maria]

Now if we only had the Holy Spirit to do so. But we do don’t we.

Do you claim to have the Holy Spirit? If so, do you claim to speak infallibly?

Any church, magisterium, council must align with Him and His written word… as such conditional.

The Catholic Church does. Yours does not. Nor do you personally. That is demonstrable.

Yes, the Catholic church has met the conditions on many things and at times.

Agreed.

Beyond that, it is self judgement.

It is God appointed.

You are right.

Thanks.

No head servant has ever succumb to any temptation of such authority…?

Whether anyone has or hasn’t, there is no way you can prove it.

Precisely…both our churches have ordained civil “murder” because they thought such unity was so ordered by God…indeed a binding.

Lol! You previously acted as though there was something wrong with this. Now, you admit that even your own churches use civil authority to enforce God’s laws. Thank you.

 

[fhansen]

Yes, but the presumption comes in claiming it for yourself only and that unconditionally, and ORAR.

Ok, so we should now claim it for everyone, regardless of their theology Right, that will work.

Also agree that good doctrine is no guarantee of right behavior, but certainly it would seem to be appropriate to round up the usual suspects when bad behavior arises, one of them being bad doctrine.

But so far only vastly superior doctrine can be found-for serious lookers.

Lol…now you know that is not true…we consider councils to be normative, even part of tradition, just that both have writ as their norm.

Right-except that there is no “we” In Protestant circles that can assert such a claim universally. Many Protestants don’t even know about the councils and could care less, and certainly have no means to convene another one if the need arises.

Well, the CC seems to do some things quite a la OT, not sure why remnant be not one of them, as if church denies any reformation of itself from time to time.

The Church speaks of continuous need of renewal for her members, all the way to the top.

although not sure infallibility was bantered about.

Nope, just practiced, still is.

No such thing as a half Christian or quarter Christian…but for sure some are daisies, some roses, apples etc. You are either washed by the blood or not, born again or not, God knowing for sure.

You either love well, or not. The rest is talk.

 

[lanman87]

God does, however. You’ll find that out in the end.

I trust in Christ and Him alone for my eternal destiny.

Luke 10:16He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

I don’t despise Christ, He is my treasure in a field and I do my best to humbly walk In Him and live for Him every day.

 

[mcq72]

Matthew 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Yes, put out the Korah’s.

Flip side, as in Revelation, when a church neglects correction, someone else will carry the lamp.

 

[fhansen]

Flip side, as in Revelation, when a church neglects correction, someone else will carry the lamp.

Multiple someones in this case, and carrying lamps with little or no oil; there was nothing to correct as far as teachings go. The Reformation did one thing good though. It prompted the Council of Trent, where, once again, the Church laid down the true teachings by council, especially on justification-and more clearly than any time in the past.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

God does, however. You’ll find that out in the end.

I trust in Christ and Him alone for my eternal destiny.

But Christ wants you to trust in the men whom He appointed to lead in His place.

Luke 10:16He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

You can’t trust in Christ by disobeying His words.

I don’t despise Christ, He is my treasure in a field and I do my best to humbly walk In Him and live for Him every day.

Then obey the Church which He put in this world to Teach all that He commands.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

You have confused your own apprehensions for the Word of God. Jesus Christ works through those who love and obey Him.

1 Corinthians 11:1Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Jesus Christ did not say to follow Him alone and disregard those whom He appointed to Teach you God’s will.

 

[De_Maria]

Yes, put out the Korah’s.

Flip side, as in Revelation, when a church neglects correction, someone else will carry the lamp.

Jesus Christ guaranteed the Church would never fail.

 

[mcq72]

Jesus Christ guaranteed the Church would never fail.

Never fail is not in bible. Prevailing is not never failing but if failing, getting right back on track.

We ( Jesus) have won the war but not every battle.

You guys like OT, and still carry over some of its stuff, so why not its definition of prevailing?

 

[De_Maria]

Never fail is not in bible.

Since God insures that She will prevail, then she will never fail. That’s in the Bible.

Prevailing is not never failing

It is if God’s Word says it.

but if failing, getting right back on track.

Jesus didn’t say, “will sometimes prevail.”

We ( Jesus) have won the war but not every battle.

But Jesus Christ has won every single battle. And His Church remains, infallible.

You guys like OT, and still carry over some of its stuff, so why not its definition of prevailing?

Lol! Because there is a far greater than Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jonah, David and Solomon here. The NT is mediated by Jesus Christ. Haven’t you heard?

 

[mcq72]

Lol! Because there is a far greater than Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jonah, David and Solomon here. The NT is mediated by Jesus Christ. Haven’t you heard?

I did not know Jesus was on vacation in OT, made no guidance promises.

Do you deny prevailing for OT also , as you do for “other” churches.

Last i heard the Protoevangelium in Genesis came to be, and Eve, Noah, Abraham, Moses prevailed in their part, and salvation is of the Jews.

 

[Woodyl57]

I did not know Jesus was on vacation in OT,

Somewhat following the discussion. I tend to agree with the Catholic side, but kudos on this line. Loved it!

 

[De_Maria]

I did not know Jesus was on vacation in OT, made no guidance promises.

Did Jesus say to Moses, “I give you the keys to the Kingdom and the gates of hell will not prevail against you.”?

Do you deny prevailing for OT also , as you do for “other” churches.

Yes. But Judaism was controlled by Herod at the time of Jesus’ birth. This will never happen to the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is ruled by Jesus Christ.

Last i heard the Protoevangelium in Genesis came to be, …

In spite of the fact that Judaism was basically crushed and suffering the curses of Deuteronomy because of their disobedience to God.

Oh, here’s what God said to the Jews.

Deut 28:45 All these curses will come on you. They will pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the Lord your God and observe the commands and decrees he gave you. 46 They will be a sign and a wonder to you and your descendants forever. 47 Because you did not serve the Lord your God joyfully and gladly in the time of prosperity, 48 therefore in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and dire poverty, you will serve the enemies the Lord sends against you. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you.

Show me the equivalent promise to the Catholic Church.

 

[De_Maria]

mcq72:

I did not know Jesus was on vacation in OT,

Somewhat following the discussion. I tend to agree with the Catholic side, but kudos on this line. Loved it!

Really? Why? Do you see a promise of infallibility to the Jews by any of the Persons of the Divine Trinity? If so, where?

 

[Woodyl57]

No, I was implying I believe Christ the son was active in the OT. The entirety of the Bible, the Word, is about Christ.

I did not mean to jump in and take the conversation off course.

 

[mcq72]

Yes. But Judaism was controlled by Herod at the time of Jesus’ birth. This will never happen to the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is ruled by Jesus Christ.

Yes, because they abandoned Jesus ruling, theocracy, for a visible king.

Some popes have been quite visible, and no better than Herod.

In spite of the fact that Judaism was basically crushed and suffering the curses of Deuteronomy because of their disobedience to God.

Crushed, but prevailed against the promises of God ?

Show me the equivalent promise to the Catholic Church.

“else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.”

“So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.”

“But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam”

“Likewise, you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans.”

“Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.”

“Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel”

“And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.”

Not sure why the Lord would have to search the church for harboring bad doctrine or wicked religion or cold hearts if there were none, no mistep, no temporary error to be dealt with.

Oh we will , the Lord will, the church will, prevail, but not because we have never erred.

 

[mcq72]

Oh, here’s what God said to the Jews.

Deut 28:45 All these curses will come on you.

Here is what Jesus also said,

“Salvation is of the Jews”.

 

[De_Maria]

Yes, because they abandoned Jesus ruling, theocracy, for a visible king.

Thank you. So, this should have proved you wrong, but you continue.

Some popes have been quite visible, and no better than Herod.

Even if it were true, the Catholic Church is still here and still infallible. Whether any Pope is no better than Herod, is God’s to judge.

Crushed, but prevailed against the promises of God ?

Certain Jews prevailed. Judaism did not. It was, as you proved early in your reply.

“else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.”

“So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.”

“But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam”

“Likewise, you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans.”

“Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.”

“Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel”

“And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.”

Your intepretive paradigm is faulty. Those Churches, and you see that they are several and thus not the one, true, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Thus, your response to my challenge has failed.

In fact, those Churches are well known to any Christian who actually has studied CHRISTIAN history. They all were under the auspices of St. John, the Apostle. He was their first Bishop. But, as he was exiled, he took the opportunity to write a warning to them because of things he had heard in his exile.

Not sure why the Lord would have to search the church for harboring bad doctrine or wicked religion or cold hearts if there were none, no mistep, no temporary error to be dealt with.

Lol! Jesus Christ established a system for weeding out error and heresy. It is right there in Scripture. You even quoted a verse which says that heresies were bound to arise. And it is the Catholic Church which determines what is a heresy and what isn’t.

Oh we will , the Lord will, the church will, prevail, but not because we have never erred.

Ha ha. You love to overcome your own arguments. Who said that “we have never erred”?

I am talking about infallibility. The Catholic Church is protected from error by the Holy Spirit. That doesn’t say that individuals even in the Church, won’t err. But if they do, the Catholic Church will identify the error and correct it, by the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Compare that to your system. Right. You don’t have one. If you disagree with someone, your only recourse is to pick up your bible and go home.